AnimeSuki Forums

incorrupts · 2009-01-20, 00:41

I was not gonna revive the thread saying something about Kallen again {zomg!} but today i got some nice git-out-Kalulu-rabid-fan pms out of the blue {yeah, cause when i use Kalulu icon it means i am rabid fan / stairpalm} so i might as well give my input {here is your answer pm-CC fan btw asking me why i dare to think why Kalulu is closest to canon} on something that a lot of people missed when it came to her poem, as most of them concentrate on the kiss scene, and leave the other vital scene, in episode 19, "Betrayal" Turn. Which i think it is more integral to Kallen's poem but it cannot be said explicitly.

Alright, in simple words and simple logic::
The "live on" Lelouch used back then, was no accident at all. It is exactly the contrary of the expression "i would follow you to hell/aka die with you." And Lelouch did know that and did not want that for her, thus he chose to wear the cold-chess mask and manipulate everyone, mostly Kallen.
However, as she walked away, presumably Lelouch thought that Kallen was not able to hear {wrong Lulu, Kallen has Guren-kick-ass ear abilites as well} and said this quote, exactly for the reason Kallen mentions in her poem. "You knew that didn't you?" --> Lelouch could not reply to her answer, what she does mean to him, because that would guarantee her death moment. {that also applies in episode 22, she would follow him whenever} And the answer was the so-called-aishiteru.
The poem is actually controversial and yet very simple at the same time. Lelouch could just manipulate her and say NOTHING as she left.
However, he gave his answer with the "live-on" words. He is basically saying, that he can't tell her what she means to him, exactly because he wants her to live on. He does not even want to give her the benefit of the option, cause she knows Kallen would choose hell with him, rather than a world without him at that point. {yeah, ZR leaving her out}

Now, taking in account, all the development between them in the span of second season, as well as other staff materials that more or less say, "mutual feelings", i guess it is at least naive at this point for someone not to admit that Lelouch had ~~a few~~ romantic feelings for Kallen. While personally, i think it is a lot more than that, for the reasons i mentioned.
Cryptic words that are not so cryptic in the end, it is like the song, "in the name of love, what more in the name of love" < -- yvj this is for you. |D

Grey Dawn · 2009-01-20, 01:59

Hmm, running with that, it fits in nicely with "I want you to fullfil your own dreams" since that would be, well, living out her life ~

Frostfire · 2009-01-20, 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Dawn

Hmm, running with that, it fits in nicely with "I want you to fullfil your own dreams" since that would be, well, living out her life ~

And the whole her being the one he entrusted his feelings and wishes too/with.

larathewho · 2009-01-20, 02:31

I don't know if anyone saw these already,
but I found some really nice Shirlulu essays on LJ!

~here you go~

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...rley/6552.html

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...40.html#cutid1

incorrupts · 2009-01-20, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by larathewho

I don't know if anyone saw these already,
but I found some really nice Shirlulu essays on LJ!

~here you go~

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...rley/6552.html

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...40.html#cutid1

Yeah, they have been posted before, nice analysis though.

Cosmic Eagle · 2009-01-20, 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Yeah, they have been posted before, nice analysis though.

And what was the views on it?

morbosfist · 2009-01-20, 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And what was the views on it?

Depends on who you ask. I remember arguing aspects of both at one point or another.

Cosmic Eagle · 2009-01-20, 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Depends on who you ask. I remember arguing aspects of both at one point or another.

How many pages back?

Rising Dragon · 2009-01-20, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

How many pages back?

None, in this case. I posted those links back in the third Romance thread.

morbosfist · 2009-01-20, 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

None, in this case. I posted those links back in the third Romance thread.

Which in the last thread would be quite a few pages, in the dozens probably.

Rising Dragon · 2009-01-20, 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Which in the last thread would be quite a few pages, in the dozens probably.

Well, according to my social group, I posted the first link on ShirLulu Forever around 2008-10-11. The second link was posted around 2008-11-12.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-01-20, 05:48

i totally loved you take on this incorrupts
i totally forgot that she didnt ask him "do you love me" but rather "what am i too you"
and it makes sense now on why he didnt answer
he couldnt tell her the truth

also explains why he chose those to be his last words (on earth, as far as he knew) rather then "i love you"

Natsuki Hyuga · 2009-01-20, 06:31

With respect to you all, but I believe all the canon Lulu pairings doesn't exist anymore

While I like to believe that Lulu does live and am attracted to the bond between Lulu and C.C. (and ship Suza/Lulu a bit *whistles*), I would rather think that Lulu is indeed dead and the pairing doesn't exist anymore~

Interesting discussion about the materials anyway

incorrupts · 2009-01-20, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

With respect to you all, but I believe all the canon Lulu pairings doesn't exist anymore

While I like to believe that Lulu does live and am attracted to the bond between Lulu and C.C. (and ship Suza/Lulu a bit *whistles*), I would rather think that Lulu is indeed dead and the pairing doesn't exist anymore~

Interesting discussion about the materials anyway

But we are not discussing about Lelouch being alive in relevance to possible canon or not, we are discussing about his feelings while he was alive.
And besides, being dead does not mean something is not canon, it is just tragic pairing at times. {Suzu/Euphie for example}

@blade::: Exactly my point.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-01-20, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i totally loved you take on this incorrupts
i totally forgot that she didnt ask him "do you love me" but rather "what am i too you"
and it makes sense now on why he didnt answer
he couldnt tell her the truth

also explains why he chose those to be his last words (on earth, as far as he knew) rather then "i love you"

Okay, maybe I'm just dense, but seriously, could someone please explain to me the significance of that. Sometimes I struggle with all this vagueness and symbolism and implications.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-01-20, 15:13

when kallen asked him what she means to her he ended up saying "pawn" and making her leave
and then he told her his (what he believed to be) last words "live on"
but since the poem makes it clear that he knew that had he told her "i love you" she would have followed him to hell
then telling her how he feels would have ment her death
he instead chose to tell her, not what he feels for her (what she means to him) but rather what he wishes for her to do

Nobodyman9 · 2009-01-20, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

when kallen asked him what she means to her he ended up saying "pawn" and making her leave
and then he told her his (what he believed to be) last words "live on"
but since the poem makes it clear that he knew that had he told her "i love you" she would have followed him to hell
then telling her how he feels would have ment her death
he instead chose to tell her, not what he feels for her (what she means to him) but rather what he wishes for her to do

Okay, I think I've got the idea. I should really rewatch the episode(s) some time.

SonOfHeaven · 2009-01-20, 16:54

The more I read on Lelouch and Kallen's relationship, the more I feel sad for Kallen post series(she's moving on because of Lelouch's wish but still). Lelouch could have left something for Kallen. She's so devoted to him(everything about her is about loving Lelouch and they make it seem like its not a love in the past for her).

Witacume · 2009-01-20, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

The more I read on Lelouch and Kallen's relationship, the more I feel sad for Kallen post series(she's moving on because of Lelouch's wish but still). Lelouch could have left something for Kallen. She's so devoted to him(everything about her is about loving Lelouch and they make it seem like its not a love in the past for her).

oh he did leave something behind didn't you see Kallens little kid?
:P
I'm messing.
BUt he did leave the guren key with a message in it.
COming soon PD 9
XD

Frostfire · 2009-01-20, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

The more I read on Lelouch and Kallen's relationship, the more I feel sad for Kallen post series(she's moving on because of Lelouch's wish but still). Lelouch could have left something for Kallen. She's so devoted to him(everything about her is about loving Lelouch and they make it seem like its not a love in the past for her).

He gave her a future with her mother, made most of her dreams reality, and he gave her something to live for and to keep with her in her heart.

I'd say he gave her plenty, the only other thing he could have given her was a luluko.

2009-01-20, 05:48	Link #1272
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	i totally loved you take on this incorrupts i totally forgot that she didnt ask him "do you love me" but rather "what am i too you" and it makes sense now on why he didnt answer he couldnt tell her the truth also explains why he chose those to be his last words (on earth, as far as he knew) rather then "i love you" __________________ Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-01-20 at 11:54.

2009-01-20, 15:13	Link #1276
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	when kallen asked him what she means to her he ended up saying "pawn" and making her leave and then he told her his (what he believed to be) last words "live on" but since the poem makes it clear that he knew that had he told her "i love you" she would have followed him to hell then telling her how he feels would have ment her death he instead chose to tell her, not what he feels for her (what she means to him) but rather what he wishes for her to do __________________

2009-01-20, 16:54	Link #1278
SonOfHeaven Metal Gear!? Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Tampa	The more I read on Lelouch and Kallen's relationship, the more I feel sad for Kallen post series(she's moving on because of Lelouch's wish but still). Lelouch could have left something for Kallen. She's so devoted to him(everything about her is about loving Lelouch and they make it seem like its not a love in the past for her). __________________ Last edited by SonOfHeaven; 2009-01-20 at 17:14.

2009-01-20, 00:41	Link #1261
incorrupts Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greece Age: 35	I was not gonna revive the thread saying something about Kallen again {zomg!} but today i got some nice git-out-Kalulu-rabid-fan pms out of the blue {yeah, cause when i use Kalulu icon it means i am rabid fan / stairpalm} so i might as well give my input {here is your answer pm-CC fan btw asking me why i dare to think why Kalulu is closest to canon} on something that a lot of people missed when it came to her poem, as most of them concentrate on the kiss scene, and leave the other vital scene, in episode 19, "Betrayal" Turn. Which i think it is more integral to Kallen's poem but it cannot be said explicitly. Alright, in simple words and simple logic:: The "live on" Lelouch used back then, was no accident at all. It is exactly the contrary of the expression "i would follow you to hell/aka die with you." And Lelouch did know that and did not want that for her, thus he chose to wear the cold-chess mask and manipulate everyone, mostly Kallen. However, as she walked away, presumably Lelouch thought that Kallen was not able to hear {wrong Lulu, Kallen has Guren-kick-ass ear abilites as well} and said this quote, exactly for the reason Kallen mentions in her poem. "You knew that didn't you?" --> Lelouch could not reply to her answer, what she does mean to him, because that would guarantee her death moment. {that also applies in episode 22, she would follow him whenever} And the answer was the so-called-aishiteru. The poem is actually controversial and yet very simple at the same time. Lelouch could just manipulate her and say NOTHING as she left. However, he gave his answer with the "live-on" words. He is basically saying, that he can't tell her what she means to him, exactly because he wants her to live on. He does not even want to give her the benefit of the option, cause she knows Kallen would choose hell with him, rather than a world without him at that point. {yeah, ZR leaving her out} Now, taking in account, all the development between them in the span of second season, as well as other staff materials that more or less say, "mutual feelings", i guess it is at least naive at this point for someone not to admit that Lelouch had ~~a few~~ romantic feelings for Kallen. While personally, i think it is a lot more than that, for the reasons i mentioned. Cryptic words that are not so cryptic in the end, it is like the song, "in the name of love, what more in the name of love" < -- yvj this is for you. \|D

2009-01-20, 01:59	Link #1262
Grey Dawn zzzzzzzz Join Date: Oct 2008	Hmm, running with that, it fits in nicely with "I want you to fullfil your own dreams" since that would be, well, living out her life ~

2009-01-20, 02:31	Link #1264
larathewho Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2009	I don't know if anyone saw these already, but I found some really nice Shirlulu essays on LJ! ~here you go~ http://community.livejournal.com/lel...rley/6552.html http://community.livejournal.com/lel...40.html#cutid1