Who Is the Strongest/Best Ninja in their Prime? [Manga]

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

You continue to miss my point. I'm not talking about Hashirama vs. Hiruzen. I'm talking about Hashirama vs. Kyuubi and Hiruzen vs. Kyuubi. In Hashirama's case he had Mokuton, which allowed him to pull out an easy win. Hiruzen has no such thing and thus would have needed brute force to defeat the Kyuubi. My entire point is that those two facts are in no way indicative of Hashirama's superiority, whether he is stronger or not.

If we're talking about comparing Hashirama's strength and Hiruzen's strength, of course Mokuton counts. But saying that their respective performances against Tailed Beasts is some kind of indication, when one of them has an ability that provides an easy win, is not the way to prove who is better.

but its not an easy win at all. yamato has mokuton and he couldnt do it. neither could danzo. also, just because people have sharingan doesnt mean they can control bijou. it takes the cream of the crop to do it. ninja like madara and hashirama are the elite of the elite.

I hear what you're saying loud and clear. what I'm saying is that his ability to control bijou by whatever means necessary is a part of why hashirama is stronger than hiruzen. the other part is the fact that he beat madara.

instead of thinking of mokuton and sharingan as cheats or gifts, I think of them as tools that only the most powerful ninja can use to their fullest extent.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but its not an easy win at all. yamato has mokuton and he couldnt do it. neither could danzo. also, just because people have sharingan doesnt mean they can control bijou. it takes the cream of the crop to do it. ninja like madara and hashirama are the elite of the elite.

I hear what you're saying loud and clear. what I'm saying is that his ability to control bijou by whatever means necessary is a part of why hashirama is stronger than hiruzen. the other part is the fact that he beat madara.

instead of thinking of mokuton and sharingan as cheats or gifts, I think of them as tools that only the most powerful ninja can use to their fullest extent.

Only the most powerful ninja using them to the fullest extent only really applies if they're readily available; despite what Danzo pulled off, they're not. And regardless of whether or not Hashirama's fight was simple, the fact is Mokuton by default makes it a whole hell of a lot easier than using only brute strength.

Hashirama beating Madara definitely lends support to the idea of him being stronger than Hiruzen, but him beating the Kyuubi where Hiruzen failed doesn't. You're running on the assumption that Mokuton should be treated as just another skill when it comes to their respective abilities in combating the Kyuubi, but it isn't. At the end of the day it's undeniable that having an ability specifically geared to defeating the Kyuubi will make doing so far simpler than having only brute strength to use. We can agree to disagree if you want, but I really fail to see how that is any sort of evidence in the argument over who's stronger between them.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Hashirama beating Madara definitely lends support to the idea of him being stronger than Hiruzen, but him beating the Kyuubi where Hiruzen failed doesn't. You're running on the assumption that Mokuton should be treated as just another skill when it comes to their respective abilities in combating the Kyuubi, but it isn't. At the end of the day it's undeniable that having an ability specifically geared to defeating the Kyuubi will make doing so far simpler than having only brute strength to use. We can agree to disagree if you want, but I really fail to see how that is any sort of evidence in the argument over who's stronger between them.

well what I'm not getting about your point is what I put in bold. how is defeating/controlling the kyuubi not any sort of evidence that can be compiled into someone's overall power? only extremely strong ninja have been able to do it. I'm not saying there aren't other strong people who can't do it like hiruzen or A or Minato. But I don't see how being able to control the largest and most deadly masses of chakra can simply be cast aside from the discussion over who is most powerful. even with mokuton or sharingan it takes a massive amount of power to do it. I'm fine with saying that it isn't enough to put him over hiruzen which is why I brought up hashirama beating madara, but I certainly do include it in what hashirama's power is capable of contrasted with other people who are not capable of such a feat. mokuton ability is part of what hashirama is, just like Pain's rinnegan or Neji's byakugan or Kiba's sense of smell. they aren't hacks just because they happen to serve them well in particular tasks imo.

[Akashin]

...I'm reasonably certain that you are in fact missing my point.

I never said Mokuton and being able to control the Kyuubi shouldn't be counted as a part of what makes Hashirama powerful. In fact, I said several times now that I believe exactly that. I feel like you keep ignoring the point I'm trying to make though; I'm not talking about whether Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen or not. I really can't make my point any more clearly than I already have though; honestly, I don't think I can. All I'm saying is that when it comes to one's ability to combat a Tailed Beast, the fact that one of them has a technique specifically designed to control a Tailed Beast as opposed to overcoming them with brute force (as Hiruzen would have to) should be taken into account. And that because Hashirama can do exactly that, saying that he can beat the Kyuubi and Hiruzen can't shouldn't be treated as a strong argument over which is stronger.

I'm not saying anything whatsoever on the subject of which one is stronger overall. I'm just debating the sense in using their respective abilities to handle the Kyuubi as a measuring stick; really, we're just blowing up a minor discrepancy I made over an even more minor comment.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

.I'm not talking about whether Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen or not. I really can't make my point any more clearly than I already have though; honestly, I don't think I can. All I'm saying is that when it comes to one's ability to combat a Tailed Beast, the fact that one of them has a technique specifically designed to control a Tailed Beast as opposed to overcoming them with brute force (as Hiruzen would have to) should be taken into account. And that because Hashirama can do exactly that, saying that he can beat the Kyuubi and Hiruzen can't shouldn't be treated as a strong argument over which is stronger.

its a minor point for sure I guess we have to just do the whole agreeing to disagree thing. I don't think I'm missing anything you're saying... sharingan and mokuton aren't specifically designed to control tailed beasts. they are responsible for lots and lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with the bijou. my point has been that instead of looking at the tool, I choose to look at the wielder of it. similar to zetsu's description of itachi and sasuke's fight. he said that sasuke was able to dispel tsukiomi with a normal sharingan because he was more adept at using that than itachi with his MS, for genjutsu at least. it's not the tool, its the shinobi in other words. you're also assuming that if hiruzen had those powers then he would be able to do it too. he probably would have but its still an assumption. the fact is that hashirama did do it and hiruzen couldn't.

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Whether Sarutobi is stronger than the 1st and 2nd or not, I don't think this is the way to go about debating that. Mokuton is specifically designed to controlling the Tailed Beasts, same way the Sharingan is; saying somebody with one of those things is stronger than somebody who doesn't because they can take care of Tailed Beasts makes no sense. It's not really fair to Hiruzen to make a comparison like that.

Yeah , what u say makes sense about what i wrote when i used the Tailed Beast to compare Hiruzen and Hashirama. That was a bad mark on my part.

On my defense though , my main comparison was actually Minato and Hiruzen against the Kyuubi.

All i really wanted to point out wasn't so much of the Mokuton part but that it's so clear Hashirama is of a different level compared to Hiruzen especially when you see how he stood at the top of the Shinobi world with his control over the Tailed Beasts while Hiruzen couldn't even handle the Nine-Tails , he waited for Minato. That was all there is to that sentence i said. It just didn't make sense that the Shinobi known to be the Strongest after the First Great War would lose to the 3rd so easily like that. I was just making my point to the person whom i quoted as he stated that Hiruzen was clearly the strongest as he defeated the First and Second , and even had the Chakra to make a mockery of Orochimaru. I think the point i shouldn't have added was the 'Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts' part of my qupte. So yeah. Apologies if u got the wrong idea because of that.

Anywho. Thats about all i gotta say.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I don't think I'm missing anything you're saying... sharingan and mokuton aren't specifically designed to control tailed beasts. they are responsible for lots and lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with the bijou.

And my main point is that, while you're indeed right, it's also undeniable that Mokuton and Sharingan provide a default advantage over defeating the Tailed Beasts that nobody else has, regardless of strength. But yeah, agree to disagree I suppose.

Originally Posted by xKeir

All i really wanted to point out wasn't so much of the Mokuton part but that it's so clear Hashirama is of a different level compared to Hiruzen especially when you see how he stood at the top of the Shinobi world with his control over the Tailed Beasts while Hiruzen couldn't even handle the Nine-Tails , he waited for Minato. That was all there is to that sentence i said. It just didn't make sense that the Shinobi known to be the Strongest after the First Great War would lose to the 3rd so easily like that. I was just making my point to the person whom i quoted as he stated that Hiruzen was clearly the strongest as he defeated the First and Second , and even had the Chakra to make a mockery of Orochimaru. I think the point i shouldn't have added was the 'Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts' part of my qupte. So yeah. Apologies if u got the wrong idea because of that.

You raise a good point. My argument for the most part in the past has been that there's no way that what we've seen of Hiruzen so far can be all there is to a guy of his reputation, but you raise an equally good point regarding Hashirama's reputation. More than anything, I just wish we knew more about the two of them to more accurately compare them.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Yeah , what u say makes sense about what i wrote when i used the Tailed Beast to compare Hiruzen and Hashirama. That was a bad mark on my part.

On my defense though , my main comparison was actually Minato and Hiruzen against the Kyuubi.

All i really wanted to point out wasn't so much of the Mokuton part but that it's so clear Hashirama is of a different level compared to Hiruzen especially when you see how he stood at the top of the Shinobi world with his control over the Tailed Beasts while Hiruzen couldn't even handle the Nine-Tails , he waited for Minato. That was all there is to that sentence i said. It just didn't make sense that the Shinobi known to be the Strongest after the First Great War would lose to the 3rd so easily like that. I was just making my point to the person whom i quoted as he stated that Hiruzen was clearly the strongest as he defeated the First and Second , and even had the Chakra to make a mockery of Orochimaru. I think the point i shouldn't have added was the 'Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts' part of my qupte. So yeah. Apologies if u got the wrong idea because of that.

Anywho. Thats about all i gotta say.

got to say i tend to agree with you. the power to tame and control tailed beasts must be added as a whole to a ninja powers. you cannot push it aside. there is a reason so few peole can tame tailed beast and the first can control and use them as well. that is a hugh power to add to a ninja, i mean if the first hokage were to fight the third or the fourth in one on one combat with the tailed beasts, who could stop him. at the end of the day it is a part of his powers and must be added to his power set.

[Lycodrake]

Since this is all about personal opinion and what little we know about the characters, I'd have to say Hanzou.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

Since this is all about personal opinion and what little we know about the characters, I'd have to say Hanzou.

how could you only know a "little about the characters" after 569 chapters? for instance, we know that nagato beat hanzou so you are ignoring that fact right off the bat.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

how could you only know a "little about the characters" after 569 chapters? for instance, we know that nagato beat hanzou so you are ignoring that fact right off the bat.

My wording probably could've been better, but that wasn't Hanzou at his prime, though. ^^;

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

My wording probably could've been better, but that wasn't Hanzou at his prime, though. ^^;

Supposing that is true, what exactly is there to make you think that Hanzo would be able to take Nagato even at his absolute strongest? Nagato at his best was able to take KM Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi at once. That's a pretty big mountain for Hanzo to scale.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Supposing that is true, what exactly is there to make you think that Hanzo would be able to take Nagato even at his absolute strongest? Nagato at his best was able to take KM Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi at once. That's a pretty big mountain for Hanzo to scale.

I suppose that I should've just stayed quiet, since the power-levels are getting to an insane level, which pretty much shuts down everything else...

With that in mind, then Madara would be the strongest/best. Whatever. ^^;

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Supposing that is true, what exactly is there to make you think that Hanzo would be able to take Nagato even at his absolute strongest? Nagato at his best was able to take KM Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi at once. That's a pretty big mountain for Hanzo to scale.

nagato didn't take them at once. he lost and none of them were very injured after. they actually all seem fine after that fight.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

nagato didn't take them at once. he lost and none of them were very injured after. they actually all seem fine after that fight.

Perhaps so, but that he was able to contend with three shinobi of their caliber simultaneously at all is telling in and of itself. If we see more of what made Hanzo so famous I may be more open to considering this, but as it is all we know is that he could take all three Sannin (arguably before their prime) at once, that he lost to Nagato, and what little of him we saw recently. None of that really shows him capable of contending with the Rinnegan.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Perhaps so, but that he was able to contend with three shinobi of their caliber simultaneously at all is telling in and of itself. If we see more of what made Hanzo so famous I may be more open to considering this, but as it is all we know is that he could take all three Sannin (arguably before their prime) at once, that he lost to Nagato, and what little of him we saw recently. None of that really shows him capable of contending with the Rinnegan.

oh yea I totally agree. I was just saying that the 3 of them were way too much for nagato to take on. hanzo was great, probably above each individual sannin at their pinnacles, but he lost to nagato in a straight up fight on his home turf so he is clearly weaker than nagato. he's probably not even top 10 material.

[Randrak42]

Major shounen battle manga usually go like this:

Ignore everything you think you know about power levels because the last two characters to fight are usually the strongest there has ever been.

I propose we resume the discussion after the manga ends so we can all agree that Naruto is the strongest ninja in his prime...cause he is the MC and will most likely win the last battle of the series.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Major shounen battle manga usually go like this:

Ignore everything you think you know about power levels because the last two characters to fight are usually the strongest there has ever been.

I propose we resume the discussion after the manga ends so we can all agree that Naruto is the strongest ninja in his prime...cause he is the MC and will most likely win the last battle of the series.

yea that's true and by that logic sasuke would be #2

I think that once these current battles get totally serious and everyone gets involved the top 10 all-time will look like this:

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Madara w rinnegan & Hashirama cells
3. Tobi w rinnegan
4. EMS Sasuke
5. KM Naruto
6. Kabuto w Orochimaru cells
7. Itachi
8. Nagato
9. Minato
10. Hashirama

I'm excluding ET because Kabuto would be #1 with it. of course these are just projections based on assumptions, but I think that the villains are going to triumph at first (sasuke included).

another shounen (and mostly generic literary) axiom is that the protagonist will suffer more than he ever has before he can finally triumph. So for now, I think the villains are going to be more powerful than the heroes.

edit: also, I'm expecting #2 and #3 to merge into one, DBZ style =)

[ranchan13]

Being that this is about the strongest ninja in their prime....

Can we all agree that Naruto and Sasuke are still not in their prime yet? If so, one of the two of them, once in their prime will easily be tops.

Sasuke for his raw talent, power, and those blasted eyes
Naruto for his godlike chakra, his innovation, and his never say die attitude.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Major shounen battle manga usually go like this:

Ignore everything you think you know about power levels because the last two characters to fight are usually the strongest there has ever been.

I propose we resume the discussion after the manga ends so we can all agree that Naruto is the strongest ninja in his prime...cause he is the MC and will most likely win the last battle of the series.

I think Naruto just achieved that status in the most recent chapter.