Penguin Drum - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That reminds me of Anthy and Akio in the Utena movie. And as Enokido explains in the Utena movie files, that "happiness" is not "for real". Had this happened with Ringo, it would have signaled her falling into darkness.

Long story short, this wouldn't have been depicted positively, at all, and would have happened only if Ikuhara wanted Ringo's story to take a tragic turn.

Yes, I agree. My point was though that due to Ringo's emotional state at the time, even with the drug as an escalating factor, what Yuri was eventually planning to do to Ringo could not quite be called real rape (i.e. Ringo would have accepted it, even if it was quite clearly wrong. It would have been tragic, for both Ringo and Yuri.).

[Malkuth]

@SolF: I completely agree with your last (clarifying) post

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes, I agree. My point was though that due to Ringo's emotional state at the time, even with the drug as an escalating factor, what Yuri was eventually planning to do to Ringo could not quite be called real rape (i.e. Ringo would have accepted it, even if it was quite clearly wrong. It would have been tragic, for both Ringo and Yuri.).

Ringo's emotional state at the time would simply make Yuri's actions more questionable, not less.

Do you really think that a person in a heavily drugged state of mind can truly consent to having sex with someone? And if she's not truly consenting to it, then what is it if not "real" rape?

If you think that a person in a heavily drugged state of mind can truly consent to having sex with someone, then I have to very strongly disagree with you. Ringo wasn't truly accepting this sexual encounter at all, just hinting at the idea that she might be open to consensual sex under certain (and different) circumstances.

[mellomarie]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

But you are responsible for your decision during that state, isn't it?

no you are not, because you are not in your normal state of mind. ringo did not consent, and if she wasn't drugged, she'd refuse considering how she backed out in having sex with tabuki too.

yuri is one hundred percent to blame for what happened, even if she didn't go through with it. i'm confused why there's any justification of yuri's actions. it was f*cked up when ringo tried to do that with tabuki and even more f*cked when yuri tried it, because she's an ADULT.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes, I agree. My point was though that due to Ringo's emotional state at the time, even with the drug as an escalating factor, what Yuri was eventually planning to do to Ringo could not quite be called real rape (i.e. Ringo would have accepted it, even if it was quite clearly wrong. It would have been tragic, for both Ringo and Yuri.).

2 or 3 pages of discussion to come to the conclusion that an adult who leads a depress teen out of nowhere, drug her and intend to sex with her without asking for her consent, if done, wouldn't constitute a rape.

I'm not really amused by what' I'm reading here =_=

Originally Posted by christinemarie

After fifteen episodes...some questions before have become clear.
1. Tabuki's fate changed. (He supposed to die in that terrorist explosion.)
2. Momoka's sister fate changed.

Spoiler for expected result:

(She supposed to be non-existent as the mother having health issues during pregnancy.)

Where are those "answers" coming from? Was there an early broadcasting of future episodes I wasn't aware of?

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

2 or 3 pages of discussion to come to the conclusion that an adult who leads a depress teen out of nowhere, drug her and intend to sex with her without asking for her consent, if done, wouldn't constitute a rape.

I'm not really amused by what' I'm reading here =_=

Thank you! This would definitely count as rape, assuming anything ever happened. Yuri brought Ringo to a hotel, drugged her, tied her up, and was ready to have sex with her. Thats rape. If you don't think that's rape, somethings a little wrong

Ringo drugged Tabuki and was all over him, and everybody here called it rape. Why is this case any different?

[Kirarakim]

For the last few posts on this thread thank you thank you! I was beginning to lose hope here about the response about this whole rape issue.

And here is another website on date rape drugs. It seems some people do not understand how they affect both the body & mind of the victim (Yuri certainly would not need a sedative to stop Ringo from struggling, the drug is enough).

You also don't have to be completely asleep to be drugged which is another thing I think people are assuming.

I am just happy & thankful that Yuri did not go through with it.

[vansonbee]

This series is full of taboo topics...

I agree with those, who states Yuri was about to rape Ringo. She was influence by a drug, strong or weak dose, doesn't matter.

DO NOT, want to meet anyone, who agreed that Ringo actually give Yuri consent at any future parties.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Ringo drugged Tabuki and was all over him, and everybody here called it rape. Why is this case any different?

In the previous case -- everyone was jealous because they wanted to get raped in the same fashion.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ringo's emotional state at the time would simply make Yuri's actions more questionable, not less.

Do you really think that a person in a heavily drugged state of mind can truly consent to having sex with someone? And if she's not truly consenting to it, then what is it if not "real" rape?

If you think that a person in a heavily drugged state of mind can truly consent to having sex with someone, then I have to very strongly disagree with you. Ringo wasn't truly accepting this sexual encounter at all, just hinting at the fact that she might be open to consensual sex under certain (and different) circumstances.

I myself have never experienced completely losing control of my mind or body due to mind-altering substances, so perhaps I am underexposed. I am generally under the impression that even if drugged, however, a person who is still self-aware (i.e. "I don't quite feel right/normal") should be able to try to resist its influences. Whether any person is able to actually "resist" a drug is not quite the point--simply an attempt to defy the effects it has on one's mind/body is my measure of the consent of a situation.

If a person is aware enough to still know that they are having sex (with all it's implications/associations, that is--pregnancy, social/emotional/inter-relational significance, etc.), then I think they are capable of giving (or refusing) consent. If all they can think of is "that feels nice" or "there's something moving in and out of my vagina", then I agree that consent is not possible and the instigator would be perpetrating rape. Beyond that, if there is any element of resisting the effect of the drug at all, then I would agree that it would be rape. However, in this case, Ringo showed that she was still capable of even coherently communicating and assigning blame. That's why I can't think of the situation as if Ringo was being completely forced, or as if she had completely lost control of her mind and body.

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Thank you! This would definitely count as rape, assuming anything ever happened. Yuri brought Ringo to a hotel, drugged her, tied her up, and was ready to have sex with her. Thats rape. If you don't think that's rape, somethings a little wrong

Ringo drugged Tabuki and was all over him, and everybody here called it rape. Why is this case any different?

Actually, I myself never really got all up in arms over what Ringo did to Tabuki. In fact, even with regards to that case, actually, as I remember Ringo's plan was only to disguise herself and in fact disorient Tabuki enough to mistake her for Yuri and fuck her willingly. While this might in fact constitute rape in any other relationship, given the superficiality of Tabuki and Yuri's relationship, thinking back I could even be tempted to question whether Tabuki would have "lost" anything.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, I myself never really got all up in arms over what Ringo did to Tabuki. In fact, even with regards to that case, actually, as I remember Ringo's plan was only to disguise herself and in fact disorient Tabuki enough to mistake her for Yuri and fuck her willingly. While this might in fact constitute rape in any other relationship, given the superficiality of Tabuki and Yuri's relationship, thinking back I could even be tempted to question whether Tabuki would have "lost" anything.

So rape is OK if the victim isn't in a committed sexual relationship?

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I myself have never experienced completely losing control of my mind or body due to mind-altering substances, so perhaps I am underexposed. I am generally under the impression that even if drugged, however, a person who is still self-aware (i.e. "I don't quite feel right/normal") should be able to try to resist its influences. Whether any person is able to actually "resist" a drug is not quite the point--simply an attempt to defy the effects it has on one's mind/body is my measure of the consent of a situation.

If a person is aware enough to still know that they are having sex (with all it's implications/associations, that is--pregnancy, social/emotional/inter-relational significance, etc.), then I think they are capable of giving (or refusing) consent. If all they can think of is "that feels nice" or "there's something moving in and out of my vagina", then I agree that consent is not possible and the instigator would be perpetrating rape. Beyond that, if there is any element of resisting the effect of the drug at all, then I would agree that it would be rape. However, in this case, Ringo showed that she was still capable of even coherently communicating and assigning blame. That's why I can't think of the situation as if Ringo was being completely forced, or as if she had completely lost control of her mind and body.

When under certain drugs, you can be both aware but unaware. While not exactly the best example, take anesthesia for example. When on it, you understand what is going on, but your ability to really do anything is inhibited. My last time on anesthesia, I could walk, talk, and understand, but my brain was essentially idle. Its hard to object when you're like this, but its easy to spout nonsense. Everything just becomes limp. Your movements, your thoughts, and your feelings.

Besides, its entirely possible the drug Yuri gave her was part aphrodisiac, which would make it even easier for Yuri to take advantage of Ringo. Essentially dull all her senses except her sex drive. Yuri's intent was to sexually take advantage of Ringo, which to me, counts as rape, regardless of the process it's done.

[kk2extreme]

Anime characters could get away with so many high crimes...

[creb]

Bleh. It's a fake story. I could see getting up in arms over some story you read on Reuters, but here...you should be exalting in how hot Yuri is and how cute inhibition free Ringo is on the phone.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

So rape is OK if the victim isn't in a committed sexual relationship?

No, that's only the case if the person is not emotionally averse to having sex with someone they aren't romantically committed to. Had Tabuki willingly fucked Ringo only to find out she wasn't Yuri, maybe he might've been emotionally harmed after all. However, in general I do have much higher standards for what would count as rape against men than against women.

[Slick_rick]

Sometimes I wonder if I too conservative on this subject or if people have read to many rape doujins.

To be fair one of the most time honored and therefore acceptable forms of rapes, though we don't call it that usually, is plying a woman with alcohol till her judgement is too impaired to stop the advances. Alcohol destroys the ability of the mind to think on a higher level, to comprehend consequences or implications, and you loose you inhibitions. A person just reacts more out of subconscious habit that conscious recognition of a situation. Now this is something that has come to be socially acceptable in many cultures so we don't think much to question it on the moral side. Some people have probably blended that issue with this one and therefore are inclined to want to excuse Yuri actions because of that.

I generally think both are reprehensible but that just little ole me.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by creb

Bleh. It's a fake story. I could see getting up in arms over some story you read on Reuters, but here...you should be exalting in how hot Yuri is and how cute inhibition free Ringo is on the phone.

Yes perhaps we are all taking a fictional story too seriously but the thing is fiction sometimes mirrors the real world. Yuri & Ringo are not real but rape certainly is and should not be taken lightly. I personally don't find anything hot or cute about rape, even fictional rape.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

In the previous case -- everyone was jealous because they wanted to get raped in the same fashion.

Because the motivation, circumstances, and relationships were totally different. I am sorry to point out that these magical drugs that Ringo used and is necessary to turn an unwilling person into a living sex toy do not exist in real life.

@SolF: I have experienced both totally losing control, and having a black out, doing things that I felt the least guilty and none (including myself) expected from me... but it was my fault for getting into that mess, trusting the wrong people, and failing to judge like an mature person would. I did not blame everyone else. This is the case for people that can realize and accept their mistakes when they lose control.

Anyway, rape is very serious issue, which witch-hunters succeeded to turn into a joke by giving a ton of legal footing to defense lawyers. Most cases of rape can not even be persecuted because of idiotic B&W classifications like the ones I read here. Recently there was this report published in BBC about a girl practically being pimped by her boyfriend, but her case had no legal basis because she was consenting, and now she is just a shadow of a person. Do you know how many abuse (not just rape cases) can never fit in those narrow definition you are giving?

Finally, understand the difference between blaming the perputrator, empathizing with the victim and giving advise about how to avoid a situation... I would never tell my kid this is how rape is defined and magically a cop would arrest the jerk and save it... I rather tell him/her what to watch out for and to be responsible for her own choices for his/her own good.

[Crontica]

Holy shit. Are you guys really arguing over whether forcing someone into sex without their consensual consent is not rape? This debate is worse than the Kyubei flamewar!

[Guardian Enzo]

Coercing another person into sex without their consent is rape - period. Ringo was about to rape Tabuki, Yuri was about to rape Ringo. I don't care to parse definitions for convenience when it comes to sexual assault.