To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Discussion / Poll

[Kuroageha]

Between white and black there are various shades of grey.
And yeah who would have thought actually doing the part of your contract would actually lead to non tragic results.

Remember when Birdway said once Touma actions might take him to a similar path to Aleister or Lola? Well Shiage went not for the third choice but then 4th choice

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by shmaster

A little surprising that nobody sees the message between the Hamazura/Choronzon relationship.
Hamazura did not crash and burn already like Meythers and Aleister in his pack with the demon already speaks thousand.

The magicians failed in their dealing with the demon because they try to fight the consequences. But Hamazura, simply, just give up. It his total surrender to fight and honoring the pact as a fair trade that ultimately lead to the fulfillment of his wish.
Hell, it this attitude of his that even made his relationship with the demon mutual. He returning Choronzo's action with words of kindness is also the only occasion which the demon faltered mentally.

I am pretty sure the more advanced Thelemites in this board can put it better than I do when you see this in Thelema perspective.

Looks outside the lens of the polarity of evil and good. This is not what Hamazura's arc is about.

Their relationship isn't mutual, it is just one of convenience, nothing more, nothing less. Just because Choronzon explained magic to him it doesn't mean that she was being kind or that they formed some sort of special bond. She is still going to kill every human and she could not care less, Hamazura changed nothing.

[Requiem-x]

Chapter 4 is complete!

Oh boy, if you thought Accel had gotten overpowered before... I do like the reasoning behind it, though.

Also, this could be the craziest epilogue since Kamisato first showed up!

[WiliamZ0]

I'm really waiting for the epilogue, so excited here.
At same time feel so sad since it will be over soon.

Still, Hamazura get off way too lightly. I don't know how he will escape his crime, but he certainly will. Accelerator get great progress while Kamijou always get the short stick and ended getting the karma that should have hit the other two protagonists.

Poor Kamijou, He is the distortion that take all the misfortune from ones around him

[Callum18]

Dat cliffhanger at the end of Chapter 4, I'm very hyped now!

[Marina2]

Shiage x Coronzon shipping is real.

Spoiler for long lists of quotes:

“I got what I wanted!! But it’s over for you too, isn’t it!? There are a ton of enemies in your stronghold and the ship is falling apart. This isn’t shogi; it’s chess. You can’t take back the captured pieces!! So end this. You can still do that. You can end this without getting killed!!”

In that large temple, the great demon heard some meaningless shouting.

It was hopelessly out of place and it had trouble settling on a single message to send.

But.

Those words carried the power to stop time for her.

.
.

(Oh.)

For some reason that not even she could explain, a contradiction formed in her mouth.

She was smiling thinly.

Nothing must remain.

Natural breakdown must take everything. Those were the rules. And yet…

(So he pulled it off.)

“Coronzon!!” said the baby. “Is this really what you want!? You are no longer the solitary joker!! Didn’t you hear your traveling companion calling to you!?”

…Pitiful demon. You could have avoided this. You were given a chance at salvation when someone reached out an awkward but desperate hand for you.”

“Let’s end this, Coronzon. A great demon of absolute evil? The natural breakdown of all things? To hell with that. I’m not the one that can forgive you. Do you see them in your mind’s eye? If so, then you still have some good fortune left. So it’s not too late. You can still end this!!”

“No…it’s going to come out… You have…someone to rely on, don’t you? Then go ask for their help, Coronzon!!!!!!”

Touma had it hard this volume. He didn't even got a chance to land any hit on Coronzon. Accel + Hamazura (with the help of Dion) did more to destroy Coronzon's plan. But it's nice to see Touma told Coronzon to run away.

Mikoto....feel sorry for her really. Kamachi just put her there to ruin Touma.

[NeutralZero]

It would be nice if shiage receive a repurcusion for his action this time. He prety much had a deal with thebdevil and just got off scott free.
Like save dione but rikou and up disapearing and whatnot.
If this is any character even touma and accell, they will have to pay a price fornsuch action.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Their relationship isn't mutual, it is just one of convenience, nothing more, nothing less. Just because Choronzon explained magic to him it doesn't mean that she was being kind or that they formed some sort of special bond. She is still going to kill every human and she could not care less, Hamazura changed nothing.

You have to look things from Choronzon's PoV.
She is actually impressed that Hamazura made it.
And this made it even more so that she refuse to walk a different path, despite how much Hamazura has shaken her resolve.
Her state of mind at that point cam be sum up as "if a man can achieve his end before the destruction I am about to bring upon, then in return I certainly cannot this alternative that just appeared before me."
If this is not mutual what is? This is not just pure destruction anymore, she's doing it out of her respect to Hamazura.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by NeutralZero

It would be nice if shiage receive a repurcusion for his action this time. He prety much had a deal with thebdevil and just got off scott free.
Like save dione but rikou and up disapearing and whatnot.
If this is any character even touma and accell, they will have to pay a price fornsuch action.

Not in the land of Kamachi.

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Shiage x Coronzon shipping is real.

Spoiler for long lists of quotes:

Touma had it hard this volume. He didn't even got a chance to land any hit on Coronzon. Accel + Hamazura (with the help of Dion) did more to destroy Coronzon's plan. But it's nice to see Touma told Coronzon to run away.

Mikoto....feel sorry for her really. Kamachi just put her there to ruin Touma.

Oh god, hadn't even thought about that. Poor girl can't get a break I would comment more on that, but I want to see the epilogue first to know where we are going from here, because you never know. Also, not gonna lie, I'm a bit upset with how things ended if only because the buildup to Touma showing was perfect, regardless of how predictable of a move it might have been, and I loved how he basically barked orders at her.

Well, that's Touma for you, and he already has experience having mercy on higher beings.

[Chosen_Hero]

Chapter 4 Part 14

Spoiler for rant:

Sorry but no, that little bit in part 14 didn't work at all for me. You want me to believe that the same demon that is willing to kill people who have been around her for years all of a sudden got swayed by some guy that just listened to her out of convenience? That Hamazura is not only such a saint that he can away a Magic god to help him by ignoring her, but that he can also make a demon smile just by following her orders? Sorry but nope, Kamachi just jumped the proverbial shark in Hamazuras' part of the story with this.

That part right there did not work on so many levels that it had me rolling my eyes so hard they started to actually hurt. If that was Kamachis' way of "humanizing" Choronzon then it failed miserably, this isn't a situation like with Othinus who actually did have a believable reason to not only be humanized but to get redemption, this situation is on a whole other side of the scales.

Othinus was only trying to return to her home because she felt lonely and out of place in a foreign world she didn't belong to, it was an understandable situation that we as readers and as humans could understand. Choronzon, on the other hand, is trying to kill every living thing (mainly humans) to supposedly "save the world" (remember that she is a demon and they lie to get their way and only tell the truth when it is convenient to them), but what about this is supposed to endear me to wanting Choronzon to get the any sort of humanization or to feel anything for in that scene?

I get that Kamachi (and japanese writers in general) loves to give redemption to all of the bad guys but this is one of those moments where it makes no sense and is on really bad taste to do so. Qliphap is understandable due to just being a young artificial kind of half demon clone without a true purpose that attached itself to a human and that found purpose through that connection, Choronzon is a 100% pure ancient demon with a clear mission that is hell bent on fulfilling it, we shouldn't be feeling for her, not everyone or everything is or should be redeemable.

Outside of that, the fight in this part was great. Nice idea by Aliester in using the fairy spell on Choronzon, seriously, someone should always keep that spell handy for situations like this. Now I wonder if it would have worked on the Magic gods from the real Gremlin.

Chapter 4 Part 15

Villain taking command is great and Riméas response is even better, the doctor is just a badass and seeing Kihara Noukan fight must be some sight for the British forces.

Chapter 4 part 16

Man, Misaka WILL and the Misaka Network are really pissed at Choronzon for almost killing Touma.

Like I already said, a strong character getting even stronger isn't the most interesting thing, but at least it is being done here for a good reason.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Chapter 4 Part 14

Spoiler for rant:

Sorry but no, that little bit in part 14 didn't work at all for me. You want me to believe that the same demon that is willing to kill people who have been around her for years all of a sudden got swayed by some guy that just listened to her out of convenience? That Hamazura is not only such a saint that he can away a Magic god to help him by ignoring her, but that he can also make a demon smile just by following her orders? Sorry but nope, Kamachi just jumped the proverbial shark in Hamazuras' part of the story with this.

That part right there did not work on so many levels that it had me rolling my eyes so hard they started to actually hurt. If that was Kamachis' way of "humanizing" Choronzon then it failed miserably, this isn't a situation like with Othinus who actually did have a believable reason to not only be humanized but to get redemption, this situation is on a whole other side of the scales.

Othinus was only trying to return to her home because she felt lonely and out of place in a foreign world she didn't belong to, it was an understandable situation that we as readers and as humans could understand. Choronzon, on the other hand, is trying to kill every living thing (mainly humans) to supposedly "save the world" (remember that she is a demon and they lie to get their way and only tell the truth when it is convenient to them), but what about this is supposed to endear me to wanting Choronzon to get the any sort of humanization or to feel anything for in that scene?

I get that Kamachi (and japanese writers in general) loves to give redemption to all of the bad guys but this is one of those moments where it makes no sense and is on really bad taste to do so. Qliphap is understandable due to just being a young artificial kind of half demon clone without a true purpose that attached itself to a human and that found purpose through that connection, Choronzon is a 100% pure ancient demon with a clear mission that is hell bent on fulfilling it, we shouldn't be feeling for her, not everyone or everything is or should be redeemable.

You seem to have forgotten another role that Choronzon plays outside being the demon of dispersion. That she is a guardian who protects the upper three Sephira of the Sephiroth. The destruction of the world is her mere rejection of this world that has distanced itself from the cosmic truth. She did not did it out of malice, but out of her duty as an integral element of the Tree of Life.
In other words, ascension into the upper three spheres is also possible for whoever that passed her reckoning. Remember, she is not just the demon who dumps things downward, she is also who controls what gets to go up.
Hamazura here is different from her past contractors in that he does not resist the dispersion that the demon is trying to bring about. Sure, he did it out of pure accident by renouncing himself to the fate surrounded him. But you can't deny that's the right answer. Beings that could not be decomposed are impurities that stagnate the world, thus only those who can accept the inevitable destruction can advance through her.
There are times where the truth is discovered by a fool instead from the wisdom of the adept. I see no problem of Choronzon showing her respect to that.

[WiliamZ0]

No matter how you cover it, Hamazura is filled with so many BS.

Kamijou Touma ended become the one responsible for the sins everyone committed and knowing his personality, he accept it gladly

Part 3 will be Demon Lord Touma waiting someone to strike him down and let BS Hamazura become hero. F*** BS

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by shmaster

You seem to have forgotten another role that Choronzon plays outside being the demon of dispersion. That she is a guardian who protects the upper three Sephira of the Sephiroth. The destruction of the world is her mere rejection of this world that has distanced itself from the cosmic truth. She did not did it out of malice, but out of her duty as an integral element of the Tree of Life.
In other words, ascension into the upper three spheres is also possible for whoever that passed her reckoning. Remember, she is not just the demon who dumps things downward, she is also who controls what gets to go up.
Hamazura here is different from her past contractors in that he does not resist the dispersion that the demon is trying to bring about. Sure, he did it out of pure accident by renouncing himself to the fate surrounded him. But you can't deny that's the right answer. Beings that could not be decomposed are impurities that stagnate the world, thus only those who can accept the inevitable destruction can advance through her.
There are times where the truth is discovered by a fool instead from the wisdom of the adept. I see no problem of Choronzon showing her respect to that.

This part ties with the theme from HP plot about cutting off people from reaching an understanding.

[Chosen_Hero]

Chapter 4 part 18

I won't even waste my time, I aready said my piece about this, just refer to my rant about part 14.

Chapter 4 part 19 and 20

(Sigh)

What the hell was this... no, where the hell did this come from all of a sudden? This moment right here was unearned, very unearned. Not only does it come off as the biggest deus ex machina of the volume, but the entire series. It falls flat just on the principle that Dion Fortune is not developed to the extent of having earned this moment, unlike the Qhilphaph and Accelerator moment in part 16.

This moment only exists as a forced way of saying that Hamazura made the right move in teaming up with Choronzon because otherwise she would have destroyed the world. Even though said moment didn't have ANY foreshadowing at all and the character that pulls it off spent the majority of the time waiting to be respawned into the conflict instead of, you know, getting characterization that would have helped in earning this big heroic moment.

Kamachi during this entire volume has clearly been forcing himself (herself?) to not use Touma (even though the most interesting parts of the volume that the readers care about are his) and by doing so has just had to rely on bs and deus ex machina moments to elevate the Hamazura side of the story. Meanwhile the Accelerator side of the story is doing just fine and he just FOUGHT, TIED WITH AND FORCED A MAGIC GOD TO APOLOGIZE.... How is THIS more believable than ANY of the things from Hamazuras' side?

THIS, this is why I personally believe that Hamazura should not play a part in the bigger parts of the story and should just be relegated to smaller conflicts that tie into the larger conflicts. This is the one volume of the entire series where the flow of consistency the series has had is shattered for the sake of a character (that's taking into account the bullshit that is Kamisato Kakeru and his convenient faction). Say what you want about Touma pulling off some bullshit moments and having plot armor from time to time, but after this volume never tell me that he is anywhere near to being the biggest culprit of relying on it.

P.S. To those replying to my posts, I have not replied to you not because I am ignoring the points you are bringing up, but because I am focusing mostly on reading the volume and trying to get my thoughts across while the information is still fresh in my mind.

[Fortitude]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Chapter 4 part 18

I won't even waste my time, I aready said my piece about this, just refer to my rant about part 14.

Chapter 4 part 19 and 20

(Sigh)

What the hell was this... no, where the hell did this come from all of a sudden? This moment right here was unearned, very unearned. Not only does it come off as the biggest dues ex machina of the volume, but the entire series. It falls flat just on the principle that Dion Fortune is not developed to the extent of having earned this moment, unlike the Qhilphaph and Accelerator moment in part 16.

This moment only exists as a forced way of saying that Hamazura made the right move in teaming up with Choronzon because otherwise she would have destroyed the world. Even though said moment didn't have ANY foreshadowing at all and the character that pulls it off spent the majority of the time waiting to be respawned into the conflict instead of, you know, getting characterization that would have helped in earning this big heroic moment.

Kamachi during this entire volume has clearly been forcing himself (herself?) to not use Touma (even though the most interesting parts of the volume that the readers care about are his) and by doing so has just had to rely on bs and deus ex machina moments to elevate the Hamazura side of the story. Meanwhile the Accelerator side of the story is doing just fine and he just FOUGHT, TIED WITH AND FORCED A MAGIC GOD TO APOLOGIZE.... How is THIS more believable than ANY of the things from Hamazuras' side?

THIS, this is why I personally believe that Hamazura should not play a part in the bigger parts of the story and should just be relegated to smaller conflicts that tie into the larger conflicts. This is the one volume of the entire series where the flow of consistency the series has had is shattered for the sake of a character (that's taking into account the bullshit that is Kamisato Kakeru and his convenient faction). Say what you want about Touma pulling off some bullshit moments and having plot armor from time to time, but after this volume never tell me that he is anywhere near to being the biggest culprit of relying on it.

P.S. To those replying to my posts, I have not replied to you not because I am ignoring the points you are bringing up, but because I am focusing mostly on reading the volume and trying to get my thoughts across while the information is still fresh in my mind.

Well Spoken.

And people complain about Touma's plot armor but after reading this volume they'll probably changed their minds because Hamazura scrappy status has reached to new lows.

Honestly like you said, Hamazura role should have stayed to smaller scale conflicts. This volume made him into some kind of Mary Sue.

[Chosen_Hero]

Chapter 4 part 21 and 22

Even after Choronzon "killed" him, Touma STILL gave her a chance to give up and back off, her fate is her own fault for not knowing when to stop.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

This part ties with the theme from HP plot about cutting off people from reaching an understanding.

HP?


*tenchars*

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

HP?


*tenchars*

High Priest.

[Marina2]

Actually......it was the whole Accel upgrade that came out of nowhere with no foreshadow.

Like how Misaka WILL and the Misaka Network suddenly able to connect and communicate with Qliphoth??? And together they can create the "third tree" to power up Accel??? and Accel can somehow forced Coronzon's soul out of her body with it?? Since when all of these were foreshadow that it was possible before the moment it revealed? But again, we looked over these because the scene is super COOL to read.