To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Discussion / Poll

[salamander750]

Man, reading NT 22 really make my brain hurt! Some times, I can't understand any shit Aleister said. But all in all, this is a solid volume, like every volume since NT 18, well maybe except that part abut Hamazura being Hamazura-y, and the part about the trees like shmaster said. But enough about me. Can I ask Kuroageha and Callum18 about your thought on this novel?

[Callum18]

Originally Posted by salamander750

Man, reading NT 22 really make my brain hurt! Some times, I can't understand any shit Aleister said. But all in all, this is a solid volume, like every volume since NT 18, well maybe except that part abut Hamazura being Hamazura-y, and the part about the trees like shmaster said. But enough about me. Can I ask Kuroageha and Callum18 about your thought on this novel?

I thought the vol was solid, maybe my fav vol in awhile. Although, I can understand why some people are a little let down by it. I thought Touma's death would lead into something greater like crossing the Abyss but it really didn't. Accel was great and I really like his new wings. Hamzaura parts were fine to me but again I understand people being upset by him.

Not sure if we will get NT23 or Part 3, but I hope next vol is the one where we find out the truth about IT/Dragons (my guess is still Typhon base on the research I did). Would be really disappointing if Touma returns and the lock is fixed and we never hear from IT/Dragons again for another 22 vols. After all this build up, I would just feel baited and tease at that point. Kamachi please tell us already so we can build from there .

[dniv]

I’ll put my detailed thoughts on this later. But I’ll just say this. While I don’t think 100% of this volume was perfect by any means. And while I also think the execution could have been better... this volume is probably easily one of the best in the series. So much build up to get this far. Utterly amazing payoff. Very excited to see where it goes next since wherever that’s going to be, it’ll certainly be insane.

[WiliamZ0]

It could be one of the best if something done about Hamazura part. It's not bad, but I really felt it forced. The built up still amazing and I still waiting until the next part out. Kamijou Touma tried to run, but Index chasing him. He knew what that thing will do when it came out and the last line Anna said also quite ominous

“Good morning, Imagine Breaker…and the One who Purifies God and Slays Demons. What does the world look like to the two of you?”

She certainly not talk about Touma, but 2 beings inside him. One tried to stop the other from escaping.

Had Index give Touma his meal time, he might able to tank the IT, but noo... the moment she see him, she tried to bite him. Touma not eat anything for 2-3 days, Index in fault here XD

[LG-MAX 2.o]

So, can anyone tell me if Kamijou will finally be able to remember Misaki after finding her?

[Wandering Soul]

My thoughts on this volume
Likes:
-Accel and 545's relationship is still great and Will adding her 5 cents to it was another good moment. I like the way Kamachi establishes the relationship as a way for Accel to move forward with being bound by the sisters.
-Aleister's story reached a satisfying resolution. He's still alive and I'm curious to see what Kamachi does with him, but I do think his "death" was a good scene and would have been fine with it ending there.
-Cronozon was a good antagonist, though a bit hard to wrap my head around. I do like how she included herself in things that needed to wipe out.
-The scene of everyone deciding to help Aleister prevent Lilith's sacrifice.
-As annoying as some parts of it could be, Hamazura's plotline was fine too.
- The decision to have Hamazura leave AC and putting Accel in charge of AC. So much for HC taking over.
-Villian being savage
-Fish eggs
-Anna making her appearance and bullying Aiwass
Dislikes:
-Hamazura's luck starts to really feel like him getting heavy plot armor
-Along with the previous point, the Magic Gods started to feel like convenient ways to protect Hamazura.
-Dion's relationship with Hamazura is not developed enough to get any real emotional catharsis from saving her.
-Misaka and Index feel like they're just there for no real reason. Misaki suffers a bit less from this as she at least has that subplot about her considering hiding IB.

Final Thoughts: Overall it's another good addition to the Cronozon arc. I get that some Touma fans may be upset that he didn't do much, but as a Touma fan myself I am fine with letting Accel and Hamazura getting the spotlight. His scenes were also enjoyable even if they were mostly minor anyway. Next volume might be about Touma and Anna's knowledge of him anyway. I'm just interested in seeing where all 3 heroes go from here.

Js06 wasn't kidding about how chunni this volume was. I now have a lot more stuff I'm interested in looking up in my free time.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Couldn't it be another case of unreliable narrator?

Definitely not.
Because Qlipha is not the narrator and she is the one who declares the whole evil as the stepping stone of good as their slogan.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Definitely not.
Because Qlipha is not the narrator and she is the one who declares the whole evil as the stepping stone of good as their slogan.

Wasn't that simply her interpretation of her own role?

[shmaster]

Then that means the Abyss she is guarding is shallow, as she is the demon that represents it. And that make the Da'ath shallow. Which ultimately makes the whole tree shallow.

[Muryai]

It’s really about time we know about Touma’s powers because it all revolves around him but we don’t even know why and how it’s really psychologically tiring

[Cosmic Eagle]

9/10 for me.

Solid volume overall but my only issue with it is the Third Tree of 545 and Accelerator. Going beyond good/evil duality there was so much potential to explore the human mind and the reflection of it in the macrocosm of the world but instead Kamachi bases it on changes wrought by technology......In other words, the new spiritual philosophy to reach the truth about one's place in the world is in the tools people make to influence the external world.

Now this is still a vague thing at this point but from the little that's been written on it, it is simply how people's minds change in response to external pressure. And not just external pressure, but specifically technology. Sorry but something so shallow and transient as that being the key to spiritual enlightenment, going so far as to enable one to touch the state of Keter....I'm not buying that.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

9/10 for me.

Solid volume overall but my only issue with it is the Third Tree of 545 and Accelerator. Going beyond good/evil duality there was so much potential to explore the human mind and the reflection of it in the macrocosm of the world but instead Kamachi bases it on changes wrought by technology......In other words, the new spiritual philosophy to reach the truth about one's place in the world is in the tools people make to influence the external world.

Now this is still a vague thing at this point but from the little that's been written on it, it is simply how people's minds change in response to external pressure. And not just external pressure, but specifically technology. Sorry but something so shallow and transient as that being the key to spiritual enlightenment, going so far as to enable one to touch the state of Keter....I'm not buying that.

Not only that. 545 dives right back to the duality thing with her evil as the stepping stone of good crap. She is elevating one at the expenses if another, and did not perceive them as a integral whole.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Then that means the Abyss she is guarding is shallow, as she is the demon that represents it. And that make the Da'ath shallow. Which ultimately makes the whole tree shallow.

Qlipah is at her core, a manufactured demon and the third tree is still something immature.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

9/10 for me.

Solid volume overall but my only issue with it is the Third Tree of 545 and Accelerator. Going beyond good/evil duality there was so much potential to explore the human mind and the reflection of it in the macrocosm of the world but instead Kamachi bases it on changes wrought by technology......In other words, the new spiritual philosophy to reach the truth about one's place in the world is in the tools people make to influence the external world.

Now this is still a vague thing at this point but from the little that's been written on it, it is simply how people's minds change in response to external pressure. And not just external pressure, but specifically technology. Sorry but something so shallow and transient as that being the key to spiritual enlightenment, going so far as to enable one to touch the state of Keter....I'm not buying that.

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't part of the reason Aleister created the third tree that he hated all the spiritual stuff and wanted something a little more definite andd controllable by people?

[entei08]

About the stepping stone line, this is how I interpretted the scene.

Qliphah is talking about her own essence there. This is something she has had from the start as a piece cut off of Coronzon, naturally she inherited all of Coronzon's aspects. Coronzon is seen as a force of evil, guarding the knowledge of the Sephiroth, the 'good' tree, so she and by extension Qliphah are evil stepping stones of good intentions.

Basically she's just stating her origins at the start, not talking about Clonoth itself.

Otherwise it would be pretty dumb to use this line then immediately after state Clonoth does not contain good or evil. Her role has been given a new meaning, she just didn't outright state it, and even if she did, it doesn't change what she used to be.

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Well, yes the Ein Sof is further described by these three aspects but they are technically in union. Anyway, do Thelemites regard the 3 0s as separate?

I don't know but I think at least they think Qemetial, Belial, and Othiel are separate things. To go against the whole Union thing that Ein Sof had.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't part of the reason Aleister created the third tree that he hated all the spiritual stuff and wanted something a little more definite andd controllable by people?

Aleister's problem is not spiritual stuff but magic and anything to do with manipulating the phases. Aleister's entire own path is spiritual anyway since with the esper program, Misaka Network etc one can see an attempt to elevate humanity to get to the truth of things as it were. But even then it has always revolved around the human; the people themselves involved to take the step, with the foundation always based in people themselves. "Every person a star" and all that.

But with this Third Tree, the focus seems to have shifted to the tools; ie technology, itself rather than the person. Literally take away technology and the entire Tree collapses.

[dniv]

So I've had time to think about this novel and I have to say that the main premise is actually pretty interesting. After reading the afteword and having time to think about everything I finally think I understand exactly what Kamachi may have been going for.

Throughout this entire novel he carefully brought up many scenes of characters either being led to commit bad deeds because of positive emotions or performing good deeds because of negative emotions similar to the tree.

Hamazura in this novel represents precisely a human that is warped by positive emotions of wanting to save someone that ends up basically almost ruining everything around him in the process. Everything ends up turning out alright because of the actions of everyone else and because he managed to cling hard to rescuing Fortune, but in reality he played a really risky gamble and had to rely on plot armor (though it could be argued that he managed to be fine because he was somewhat grounded since he kept on holding that coin of his on top of also geting lucky). But that was the point of this volume. We couldn't have expected anything else. Hamazura is a normal guy. Choronzon is someone who was capable of twisting people like Aleister and Matthers who were tiers above Hamazura in terms of competence and intelligence. So I think the point is that Hamazura was being led along invisible rails throughout this entire volume and that explains his major deviation in character.

Just like how Misaki was a bit yandere when she was carrying Touma's right arm and just like how Accelerator behaved differently than usual by going beyond good and evil and Qlipoth hurting him while trying to protect him and lots of other smaller stuff, Hamazura represented exactly how Choronzon tricked people into looking for some positive outcome by relying on some compulsion.

Anyway, the rest of this volume was obviously great, but I think this explains what Kamachi was trying to do with the part that was nonsense to all of us. Keeping this in mind, it makes it better. I still think it could be executed better, but the idea is certainly interesting nonetheless and I guess it makes Hamazura still likeable since his odd actions are justified under that warped scenario (it's like how the heroes tried to protect Fremea during NT 7 because of Agitate Halation).

That's just my take on what happened. I'll have to give a full review later... but these are my preliminary thoughts on at least the Hamazura parts.

[shmaster]

I must disagree one thing.
Hamazura is not being tricked. Instead, he fully understand Choronzon is doing evil to him but Hamazura still choose to totally give in.
Because there is no reason to resist. If Aleister and Matthers failed, then he may as well not trying.
Yeah he did this unwillingly and unintentionally, but that's the correct answer to the trial of Choronzon.

But we have to remember what Choronzon represents in this story. She is the incarnation of dispersion. The very process of natural decomposition itself.
Why Choronzon is evil? Because she is a demon and makes human do bad things? Absolutely not.
She is evil because herself is one of many things that are not naturally decomposable.
In other words, the real good to be done is NOT to fight proper natural cycle.
Aleister and Matthers failed because they know how to fight the decomposition and they tried.
But that's the very act against the cosmic truth they try to attain and thus cannot ascend into the upper three Sephira.

This is why Hamazura made it through. He did not fight the decomposition that Choronzon tried to impose on him
This is why Aleister did not die at the very end. It is no coincidence that his pact with Choronzon finally fulfilled when he finally accepted his own death.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I must disagree one thing.
Hamazura is not being tricked. Instead, he fully understand Choronzon is doing evil to him but Hamazura still choose to totally give in.
Because there is no reason to resist. If Aleister and Matthers failed, then he may as well not trying.
Yeah he did this unwillingly and unintentionally, but that's the correct answer to the trial of Choronzon.

But we have to remember what Choronzon represents in this story. She is the incarnation of dispersion. The very process of natural decomposition itself.
Why Choronzon is evil? Because she is a demon and makes human do bad things? Absolutely not.
She is evil because herself is one of many things that are not naturally decomposable.
In other words, the real good to be done is NOT to fight proper natural cycle.
Aleister and Matthers failed because they know how to fight the decomposition and they tried.
But that's the very act against the cosmic truth they try to attain and thus cannot ascend into the upper three Sephira.

This is why Hamazura made it through. He did not fight the decomposition that Choronzon tried to impose on him
This is why Aleister did not die at the very end. It is no coincidence that his pact with Choronzon finally fulfilled when he finally accepted his own death.

Hmm, interesting. I agree with the first part. I like your interpretation of the second part, but I'm not sure I agree. I concluded from the novel that Choronzon was actually wrong because she herself was ignoring the fact that things like Imagine Breaker exist. Why would Imagine Breaker exist in the first place if things were supposed to disperse naturally? That was the impression I got in the later parts of the volume. Similarly, Hamazura offered Choronzon redemption and she didn't take it where the redemption was to stop trying to eliminate everything futilely which is why I'm not sure I agree with you. It's possible though that you're right, but that's just how I interpreted the plot events myself.

[Cosmic Eagle]

She did say Imagine Breaker represents the base state of the universe which breaks everything down. As for whether her role is right or not.....well, until more on the To Aru cosmology is revealed we'll just have to take her word for it