To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Discussion / Poll

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by dniv

Hmm, interesting. I agree with the first part. I like your interpretation of the second part, but I'm not sure I agree. I concluded from the novel that Choronzon was actually wrong because she herself was ignoring the fact that things like Imagine Breaker exist. Why would Imagine Breaker exist in the first place if things were supposed to disperse naturally? That was the impression I got in the later parts of the volume. Similarly, Hamazura offered Choronzon redemption and she didn't take it where the redemption was to stop trying to eliminate everything futilely which is why I'm not sure I agree with you. It's possible though that you're right, but that's just how I interpreted the plot events myself.

No, Choronzon did not stop because she has to respect the pact between her and Hamazura.
Choronzon's trial is an integral part of the Holy Sephiroth. She is not an individual acting on her own ego, but only a gear within the cosmic order. She is incarnation of the Abyss and thus the Flaming Sword. And the Flaming Sword is the very emanation of the light from the Triple Zero.
The trail is important because it test the challenger whether they can accept the more unfavorable aspects of the cosmic order, and only those who can is allowed to cross the Flaming Sword to arrive into the higher three Sphere.
Hamazura although did not challenge the trial in a magical sense, but he still did overcame this ordeal properly. Thus Choronzon MUST not back down. If she stops her natural dispersion here, than the trail will be meaningless as well as Hamazura's achievement.

Remember, Choronzon has nothing to redeem from. Dispersion is natural. Hell, natural decomposition is crucial to our real life too. If natural decomposition stopped, the law of thermodynamic than can be breached, and our real life universe may collapse.

Choronzon even made the point that IB is proving her to be right. IB make correction to the world according to the basic natural state. Then why the correction imposed by IB is always "destruction"? There are many ways to correct a phenomenon. You can alter it, backtrack it, etc. etc.
In other words, IB correcting the world through destruction means even the basic world desire natural decomposition.

[Doe, John]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Choronzon even made the point that IB is proving her to be right. IB make correction to the world according to the basic natural state. Then why the correction imposed by IB is always "destruction"? There are many ways to correct a phenomenon. You can alter it, backtrack it, etc. etc.
In other words, IB correcting the world through destruction means even the basic world desire natural decomposition.

On the other hand, Coronzon also admits that she doesn't fully understand IB.

"I am not about to pretend I know exactly how it works,” said the hair. “After all, that thing will create a replacement on its own if it is simply cut off.”
“…?”
“Understanding it from the single viewpoint of science is not possible, but the reverse is also true. There may be a piece of the puzzle I cannot see. At any rate, this may have been the result of some misguided regrets, but it was fortunate you kept it cooled."

[Cosmic Eagle]

Sure but there's more than just IB that shows that nothing in the natural order is permanent. Whether Choronzon's role is "right" (as in whether her role actually is helpful to resolving the problem with the world at hand, not whether she can choose to be anything else or not since she's a demon and a part of the universal framework) is unknown until more is revealed but there's no denying that eternal things are wholly anathema to the functioning of the natural cycle

[dniv]

Originally Posted by shmaster

No, Choronzon did not stop because she has to respect the pact between her and Hamazura.
Choronzon's trial is an integral part of the Holy Sephiroth. She is not an individual acting on her own ego, but only a gear within the cosmic order. She is incarnation of the Abyss and thus the Flaming Sword. And the Flaming Sword is the very emanation of the light from the Triple Zero.
The trail is important because it test the challenger whether they can accept the more unfavorable aspects of the cosmic order, and only those who can is allowed to cross the Flaming Sword to arrive into the higher three Sphere.
Hamazura although did not challenge the trial in a magical sense, but he still did overcame this ordeal properly. Thus Choronzon MUST not back down. If she stops her natural dispersion here, than the trail will be meaningless as well as Hamazura's achievement.

Remember, Choronzon has nothing to redeem from. Dispersion is natural. Hell, natural decomposition is crucial to our real life too. If natural decomposition stopped, the law of thermodynamic than can be breached, and our real life universe may collapse.

Choronzon even made the point that IB is proving her to be right. IB make correction to the world according to the basic natural state. Then why the correction imposed by IB is always "destruction"? There are many ways to correct a phenomenon. You can alter it, backtrack it, etc. etc.
In other words, IB correcting the world through destruction means even the basic world desire natural decomposition.

See, I take it the opposite way. It is indeed true that Imagine Breaker brings about destruction, but the fact that no matter what happens Imagine Breaker exists in some form in every era and keeps on regrowing itself when anything happens to it goes against what she said. The fact of the matter is that Choronzon just like Aleister don't know the things that Sprengel and Aiwass do.

I think Choronzon gained the chance to acquire and act on her own ego when Hamazura called out to her and gave her a chance to turn back. That's why she was admonished by Aleister by not taking the opportunity to turn back when she could. And that's why I think her point of view is limited. I think she has a valid point of view, but it isn't the truth. It's still limited.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by dniv

See, I take it the opposite way. It is indeed true that Imagine Breaker brings about destruction, but the fact that no matter what happens Imagine Breaker exists in some form in every era and keeps on regrowing itself when anything happens to it goes against what she said. The fact of the matter is that Choronzon just like Aleister don't know the things that Sprengel and Aiwass do.

Fair point.

I think Choronzon gained the chance to acquire and act on her own ego when Hamazura called out to her and gave her a chance to turn back. That's why she was admonished by Aleister by not taking the opportunity to turn back when she could. And that's why I think her point of view is limited. I think she has a valid point of view, but it isn't the truth. It's still limited.

But this I still disagree with.
Choronzon ultimately lost to Aleister because Aleister fulfilled the pact.
When Aleister accepted his own death, he longer is the fool who blindly looks up and forget where he stands on. By willing to accept the unfavorable aspect of the cosmic order, he finally is allowed to travel beyond the Flaming Sword.

Choronzon acting on her ego would be the equivalent from deviating from her mechanic as a part of the Holy Sephiroth. No matter how you look at it, this is something she will not and cannot do.
Think about it, Aiwass mentioned that Choronzon and him are the same kind. In other words Choronzon belongs to the basic world like Aiwass. Which means so does the Holy Sephiroth. Breaching the Tree of Life is nothing short of a disaster on the cosmic order.
If anything Chorozon's only mistake here is breaking the lock on IT. That's the only thing that screwed Choronzon's plan over.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Choronzon acting on her ego would be the equivalent from deviating from her mechanic as a part of the Holy Sephiroth. No matter how you look at it, this is something she will not and cannot do.

But then why does she have an ego to begin with? Mischa Kreutsev had an ego, but that was a result of possessing Sasha due tot he accident of Angel Fall. Choronzon, on the other hand, seems to have descended the Sephira and gotten a physical body (somehow) by her own will. Shouldn't that be impossible to begin with as well?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

But then why does she have an ego to begin with? Mischa Kreutsev had an ego, but that was a result of possessing Sasha due tot he accident of Angel Fall. Choronzon, on the other hand, seems to have descended the Sephira and gotten a physical body (somehow) by her own will. Shouldn't that be impossible to begin with as well?

Base on the in story explanation, moving up and down the tree is something Choronzon naturally can do as the demon of the Abyss. This including moving up and down the phases, which is why she can descent into the basic world in the very bottom. She can stabelize her existence at every realm that can be explained by the Sephiroth.
As of why she is doing this. Well her explanation is that the world has become too in-decomposable that she has to manually dispose of it. At least, base on her reasoning, the world should have met it's natural death already if not for the Christ prolonging the world's life span.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Endscape

But then why does she have an ego to begin with? Mischa Kreutsev had an ego, but that was a result of possessing Sasha due tot he accident of Angel Fall. Choronzon, on the other hand, seems to have descended the Sephira and gotten a physical body (somehow) by her own will. Shouldn't that be impossible to begin with as well?

Are we even sure whether the actual Gabriel is a mindless bot when it has never manifested fully before? Anyway Choronzon doing the stuff she did is in line with her 333 dispersion nature so not really a deviation from her role

[dniv]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Fair point.



But this I still disagree with.
Choronzon ultimately lost to Aleister because Aleister fulfilled the pact.
When Aleister accepted his own death, he longer is the fool who blindly looks up and forget where he stands on. By willing to accept the unfavorable aspect of the cosmic order, he finally is allowed to travel beyond the Flaming Sword.

Choronzon acting on her ego would be the equivalent from deviating from her mechanic as a part of the Holy Sephiroth. No matter how you look at it, this is something she will not and cannot do.
Think about it, Aiwass mentioned that Choronzon and him are the same kind. In other words Choronzon belongs to the basic world like Aiwass. Which means so does the Holy Sephiroth. Breaching the Tree of Life is nothing short of a disaster on the cosmic order.
If anything Chorozon's only mistake here is breaking the lock on IT. That's the only thing that screwed Choronzon's plan over.

This is also a valid interpretation imo. I think the scene is pretty ambiguous and it might be clearer based on future developments with Choronzon and Aleister when they talk about what happened here or what they learned from it.

[IndexOfIdeas]

aiwass call her fraulein is she the frauleinnthat we already knew?

[Doe, John]

Originally Posted by IndexOfIdeas

aiwass call her fraulein is she the frauleinnthat we already knew?

Good question. My guess is that she's not the same as Fraulein Kreutune, but she is related in some way (perhaps by being a literal blood relative, or just by having the same kind of immortality).

[KiharaRonin]

Fraulein is a word for a woman. its similar to "ma lady", no connection to Fraulein Kreutune.

[IndexOfIdeas]

Originally Posted by KiharaRonin

Fraulein is a word for a woman. its similar to "ma lady", no connection to Fraulein Kreutune.

is that so its just that i really hope she is not really related since cendrilon is also mentioned when she appeared, u know its like i feel some foreshadowing

[Callum18]

Judging by this vol. We can try and piece somethings

-It might be the Dragons and they seem to pop out of the fisheggs. Note, Kamachi calls IT the swarm which fits the swarm of Dragons we saw in Railgun. Adding on, IT made a deafening roar which again fits the Dragons.-

-IT's power level seems to base on how much the lock/IB is broken. Would explain why IT could beat Izzard, Mikoto 5.3, Coronzon and made Fiamma wet himself but was much weaker when it attack Othinus and Awiass. Maybe had they also broke the lock/IB more, IT would have crush them as well maybe. Would fit the whole my right hand can kill God Touma said back in OT1 -

-At the end of the Vol Anna says: Good morning, Imagine Breaker…and the One who Purifies God and Slays Demons. What does the world look like to the two of you?” This now brings up the a few questions-

-is Kamijou Touma even human at all?-
-is Anna talking about Touma himself and Imagine Breaker? Or The Imagine Breaker and IT?-

Going to be interesting to see where things go from here.

[KiharaRonin]

Originally Posted by IndexOfIdeas

is that so its just that i really hope she is not really related since cendrilon is also mentioned when she appeared, u know its like i feel some foreshadowing

The mention of Cendrillion is because the taking apart pf the body and reconstruction of it done by Aiwass to restore Anna's control over her form is similar to Cendrillon's body was taken apart and put back together.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by IndexOfIdeas

is that so its just that i really hope she is not really related since cendrilon is also mentioned when she appeared, u know its like i feel some foreshadowing

Sprengel is literally a German person.....calling her fraulein is no different to calling her mamzelle or miss

[IndexOfIdeas]

Originally Posted by Callum18

Judging by this vol. We can try and piece somethings

-It might be the Dragons and they seem to pop out of the fisheggs. Note, Kamachi calls IT the swarm which fits the swarm of Dragons we saw in Railgun. Adding on, IT made a deafening roar which again fits the Dragons.-

-IT's power level seems to base on how much the lock/IB is broken. Would explain why IT could beat Izzard, Mikoto 5.3, Coronzon and made Fiamma wet himself but was much weaker when it attack Othinus and Awiass. Maybe had they also broke the lock/IB more, IT would have crush them as well maybe. Would fit the whole my right hand can kill God Touma said back in OT1 -

-At the end of the Vol Anna says: Good morning, Imagine Breaker…and the One who Purifies God and Slays Demons. What does the world look like to the two of you?” This now brings up the a few questions-

-is Kamijou Touma even human at all?-
-is Anna talking about Touma himself and Imagine Breaker? Or The Imagine Breaker and IT?-

Going to be interesting to see where things go from here.

i didnt read this part which part is this exactly i cant find it in the epilogue

[Doe, John]

Originally Posted by Callum18

Judging by this vol. We can try and piece somethings

-It might be the Dragons and they seem to pop out of the fisheggs. Note, Kamachi calls IT the swarm which fits the swarm of Dragons we saw in Railgun. Adding on, IT made a deafening roar which again fits the Dragons.-

-IT's power level seems to base on how much the lock/IB is broken. Would explain why IT could beat Izzard, Mikoto 5.3, Coronzon and made Fiamma wet himself but was much weaker when it attack Othinus and Awiass. Maybe had they also broke the lock/IB more, IT would have crush them as well maybe. Would fit the whole my right hand can kill God Touma said back in OT1 -

-At the end of the Vol Anna says: Good morning, Imagine Breaker…and the One who Purifies God and Slays Demons. What does the world look like to the two of you?” This now brings up the a few questions-

-is Kamijou Touma even human at all?-
-is Anna talking about Touma himself and Imagine Breaker? Or The Imagine Breaker and IT?-

Going to be interesting to see where things go from here.

Where was the IT called a swarm?

This seems plausible. You left out Kamisato, who further supports this theory as he erased IB and was curb-stomped by the IT.

Touma has been referred to simply as Imagine Breaker before, including in NT22 itself, so it may just be referring to him. Though IB being an independent entity is also possible, it would explain its apparent ability to choose its wielder.

[KiharaRonin]

Imagine Breaker definitely has some level of sentience. While characters do often refer to Touma as Imagine Breaker, I believe her name dropping one interpretation of Touma's name afterwards was her referring to the boy and the mention of Imagine Breaker to refer to the power.

Now, at this point it's kind of hard to make a case that Touma has multiple powers considering the fact the Dragons/IT have been shown to be able to negate powers similar to his right hand. A roaring noise comes from the eggs so we can assume the Dragons are tied to them. Ollerus stated Imagine Breaker manifested in response to the desires of Magicians and Fiamma claimed he didn't want Imagine Breaker itself but the right hand born to contain it as it could also contain his Holy Right. If we piece all of this together with stuff about a lock and the potential for the power to be its own being, it can be assumed that IB is some being that manifests itself in various objects in this world, reshaping them so they could contain it, in reaction to the hopes and dreams of Magicians. Since it can chose its vessel, it chose Touma and so when he was born, his right hand was formed specially to contain this power (or alike powers as Fiamma said) and to regrow or reattach if ever cut off. The reason why its appeared in a variety of forms and with a varying level of power is because within its vessel, a lock is placed on it and the damage fone to this lock determines its form and power level.

Just an assumption based on everything we've gotten so far (hyped to get more soon)!

[Callum18]

Originally Posted by IndexOfIdeas

i didnt read this part which part is this exactly i cant find it in the epilogue

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the link. But if you go on Baka, and click the ? on NT22 its there.

Originally Posted by Doe, John

Where was the IT called a swarm?

This seems plausible. You left out Kamisato, who further supports this theory as he erased IB and was curb-stomped by the IT.

Touma has been referred to simply as Imagine Breaker before, including in NT22 itself, so it may just be referring to him. Though IB being an independent entity is also possible, it would explain its apparent ability to choose its wielder.

From Chapter 4:


The objects that resembled giant fish eggs made from triangular surfaces burst within as something else made an appearance. But this was not just one thing. That swarm was clearly larger than the boy’s own body. The boy was not controlling the power; he was hanging from the power. That was the symbolism here.