2011-10-05, 19:39 | Link #2381 | |||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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The one thing that might seriously contradict this possiblity is how Yuuno attempted to use RH to seal that jewel seed monster. It's in stand by gem mode, but the writers were probably thinking, "Nah, let's not reveal the staff until Nanoha activates it." That is, rule of Cool rather than Consistency. Quote:
Those Devices can physically merge with their users like Unison Devices, sacrificing a physical form that could be used as a weapon or external focus in order to concentrate on improving their master's physical and magical performance, and the performance of their barrier jacket. Mages who use such Devices cannot be disarmed of their abilities without enough damage to put them out of the fight anyway, and on top of that, they can still pick up and use non-device weapons or equipment and use those, because their hands are free. Quote:
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The reason being heat; the human body isn't designed for the heat the cyborg energy source produces. Thus, Combat Mode is Dangerous Overclocking for the Type 0's, as well as something that threatened to reveal their true natures. Jail solved this problem with the Numbers by genetically lowering the rate at which their biological systems produced heat, letting the constant running of their mechanical powersource keep their bodies at a survivable temperature. Again, this may have no actual canonical basis, but it sounds pretty plausible. Quote:
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Still, the place you'd most want to station combat cyborgs would be the assignments that also have the highest chance of injury. And injury is exactly how Subaru was outted as a cyborg, since it exposed her mechanical innards. Alternatively, the TSAB brains and Regius already had a plan in place to change public opinion regarding cybernetic technology. Perhaps have Jail "arrested" or one of his labs "seized", and then the TSAB scientists who go over the data realize that, whatever crimes Jail committed to arrive at this point, they can confirm that the technology is now safe and humane. (Well, as humane as "create babies specifically intended to be soldiers or hazard-workers" can be. That would require a LOOOOOOT more propaganda.) (Or near-extinction at the hands of the Covenant; but I don't think Orbital Naval Intelligence ever fully revealed the truth of the SPARTAN II soldiers' origins as abducted children.) Quote:
And "one success in countless tries" sounds like a looooot of aborted Vivio corpses. Cheery thought, that. And probably WHY the cloning technology is illegal. Maybe the process of making a single Artificial Mage is cheaper than a Cyborg Cyborg, but the real source of the expensive / cost ineffectiveness is that you likely have to make MULTIPLE Artificial Mages before you get even one success, whereas the Combat Cyborg creation process is far more reliable. So, CC production isn't necessarily cheaper -- it's just that you get more of your money's worth out of it. But here's a thought -- even just the "imperfect" cloning techniques used for Combat Cyborgs seems like it can reliably produce viable mages. Just look at Ginga, Subaru and Nove, all imprecise clones of the same AA class combat mage. Precise cloning is terribly expensive, but imprecise cloning PLUS combat cyborg engineering is considered more cost efficient. So, imprecise cloning WITHOUT cyborg genetic/mechanical engineering would be more cost efficient AND cheaper. Straight clones of powerful and famous mages would draw too much attention, but mixing the genetic codes of various high-ranked mages together would produce relatively unique individuals who are bound by the law of averages to be have strong talent. This either eliminates or greatly reduces all of the problems precise cloning of Aces would run into, and entirely avoids any of the problems faced with trying to legally introduce Cyborgs into the TSAB. |
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2011-10-05, 19:43 | Link #2382 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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If she was trying to create a model the rest of the Ground Forces could imitate, I'd say she did a horrible job. The Ground Forces do NOT have the ability to call in Aces from the Air and Navy to work for them; they have the exact opposite problem. Besides, I thought Hayate formed Riot Force 6 specifically to bring together her firends and create a dream team to deal with Scaglietti without having to answer to anyone but Chrono. |
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2011-10-05, 19:47 | Link #2383 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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What Hayate was doing was giving pre-existing mages and knights the ability to become stronger and better adapted to unusual incidents and the like without having to resort to illegal and morally toxic methods. She didn't have to rely on cloning and weaponized cybernetic enhancements to make a specialized and fully capable military unit.
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2011-10-05, 19:50 | Link #2384 |
Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00)
Age: 37
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But she did rely on a clone (two, actually) and a cyborg . If that's the point she's trying to make then adding Erio, Fate and Subaru to the unit would be contradictory.
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2011-10-05, 19:52 | Link #2385 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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And did she specifically create those three just so she can turn them into weapons? No. And let's not forget that until Ginga was captured, Subaru wasn't relying specifically on her cyborg capabilities and, as was pointed out earlier, was keeping the fact she was a cyborg secret from everyone else.
Fate and Erio chose to help Hayate and RF6 with its goal, and they could've refused or transferred out. They weren't built specifically for it.
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2011-10-05, 20:03 | Link #2386 | |
Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00)
Age: 37
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And think about your statement: "She didn't have to rely on cloning and weaponized cybernetic enhancements to make a specialized and fully capable military unit. " But she did rely on them; she may not initiate the cloning or cybernetic augmentations, but three of her main fighters were the results of those. If "we can be competent without artificial mages or cyborgs" was the message she was trying to convey then shouldn't she, y'know, make a unit that succeed without them? Otherwise people won't be convinced. I don't think the matter of cloning or cyborgs were ever the issue in forming RF6. The unit was made, according to the second episode as Keroko pointed out, as a ground special task unit. What Hayate wanted was a ground unit that can actually do something - augmentations and cloning were never mentioned in her statement.
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2011-10-05, 20:05 | Link #2387 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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Ugh. The point I'm trying to make is that Hayate wasn't breaking the law or utterly destroying her morals by specifically creating human weapons--all she was doing was friggin' training people.
Must we always nitpick apart every little detail to ruin the point?
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2011-10-05, 20:11 | Link #2388 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In which case, I refer back to my theory that Riot Force 6 was primarily intended just to handle Jail. Not to help the Ground Force, but to do their job for them since it was obvious, after the death of Zest's team and the attack on the airport, that they and Regius Gaiz were incompetent. And once Jail was dealt with, despite being primarily responsible for successfully closing the case, Riot Force 6 was disbanded. Because it had served its purpose of arresting Jail and thwarting his plans. |
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2011-10-05, 20:18 | Link #2389 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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Zest's team is just that, one team--calling the entire ground forces incompetent based off one botched mission that was screwed from the get-go is a little unfair.
As for RF6, they disbanded after a year had passed--the JS Incident was closed nearly half a year before they actually disbanded. RF6 didn't end the moment Jail was brought to justice, though you are correct in saying that the JS incident was part of the reason why RF6 was formed, because of Carim's prophecy. But that's all muddying the point--you asked what Hayate was doing differently from Regius, and that's what I answered.
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2011-10-05, 20:31 | Link #2390 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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They saw a problem and wanted to solve it, but their superiors told them to ignore it. So they went off and tackled it anyway. Turned out it was real problem. Caught without proper support, valuable, irreplaceable human lives AND human resources were lost, trying to solve a problem against orders, because their superiors were idiots or corrupt AND were unable to maintain control of their own soldiers. And then later, the airport incident. And all of the other relics turning up on Midchilda's black market. The Ground Force wasn't handling its job, either because it (or its leadership) was incompetent or deliberately not trying. So Hayate created a unit to do the job the Ground Forces should have been doing. Quote:
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She didn't do that, because that wasn't her intention, so it's irrelevant. |
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2011-10-05, 22:25 | Link #2391 |
Random Translator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Brunswick
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Currently translating the Wing Road entry
http://translationcd.wikispaces.com/...hawiki+entries Still a work in progress
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2011-10-06, 00:19 | Link #2392 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Reposting stuff from Fanfiction thread:
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As a character, I resent him for being a waste of time. He doesn't do ANYTHING that Chrono or Yuuno couldn't have done. Or, heck, Fate's an investigator and isn't spending most of her time training the Fowards like Nanoha and Vita. So why isn't SHE investigating Scaglietti like she was doing before she joined, rather than leaving it to Verossa? (In fact, what IS she doing at all?) Since Verossa doesn't get enough time to really develop his character, all he's doing is cluttering up an already bloated cast while denying screentime to characters we already know and love. Also, back before I really cottoned on to the "Ancient Belkan style Knights were outdated towards the end of the Empire, and genetic modification was all the rage", his "inherited magic" irritated me. It made absolutely no sense within the Ancient Belkan Style. Plus, shouldn't Uno have been less surprised by it? The ability can't be all that secret, and she should have known which high-profile names were investigating them, his especially among them because of his known ties with Hayate. I'm more forgiving of Vice, who helps to develop Teana's character, develops his own character while he's at it, and even has his own little story arc where he deals with his sniping accident with his sister. Still, even Vice isn't really necessary, since it makes no sense to use helicopters and ground mages instead of teleportation and flying mages to deal with a high-class threat like Scaglietti, who could be anywhere and strike at anywhere. They took a step BACKWARDS from the measures they used against the Wolkenritter in the last season, for no clear reason. If Yuuno had been allowed by the writers to join the unit, he could have handled the teleportation, and he might have been the one that Teana ended up talking to. Perhaps because Yuuno also sometimes irrationally feels like he's not contributing enough? Rather than Vice defending the base when it was attacked, along with Vivio and her nanny, Yuuno could have done that with shields, binds and chains. Rather than developing Vice, a character we'd never seen before and didn't initially care about, they could have further explored a known and loved character who didn't have enough exploration even BEFORE the ten year time-skip! And heck, Yuuno has enough in common with Caro that he might have helped to develop HER character, which honestly could have used it. Erio's too; Erio might have openned up to Yuuno as one of the few male role models around. I'm omitting Chrono here, because while he might find the time to personally storm Scaglietti's base to help Fate by taking out Uno, he wouldn't have the time to hang around RF6's headquarters, talking with the cadets. He's got a wife and kids to spend time with when he's off-work. |
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2011-10-06, 04:46 | Link #2394 | |||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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We know gem devices don't need to transform to do stuff. Like you said, Yuuno could do stuff with Raising Heart, and Kriss and Teo are gem type devices as well, only encased in a fluffy exterior and they don't need to transform. Ditto for Rio's device, no active modes yet it functions just fine. Quote:
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But that's just my theory. Blar, yes Regius. Quote:
I have not the slightest clue whatsoever. It's one of the many things StrikerS never made clear. |
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2011-10-06, 04:58 | Link #2395 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Cant remember Rio's device. |
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2011-10-06, 05:50 | Link #2397 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Yet it aligns with Yuuno's first use of Raising Heart. Once is an exception, twice could be coincidence. Four times? Now that's a pattern. Last edited by Keroko; 2011-10-06 at 06:09. |
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2011-10-06, 08:31 | Link #2398 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Kriss and teo, again, are probably as big as weapon form RH- we don't see their gems. |
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2011-10-06, 08:56 | Link #2399 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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We have at least three other examples of devices that were capable of performing without going into weapon mode. With that number, raising heart isn't an exception anymore. |
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2011-10-06, 08:58 | Link #2400 |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Remember that Yuuno can also fly totally unassisted.
Probably Nanoha is too accustomed to fly using Raising Heart as it require keeping various things in check around her(stability, direction, speed, etc...) whole shooting and using "floater" are much more easier spells to cast and thus she's able to do it without RH's help, we also already seen her using Round Shield and Divine Shooter unassisted way back in A's.
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