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Old 2011-12-17, 18:22   Link #26441
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But even with all this, in context of the game everything should remain possible by human means. So even if Yasu gets help from people whose characters are "dead", she's can only allow occurrences that "living" characters could conceivably cause.
Yes that's basically how it should work. If to solve a mystery you need to think that a dead person (which for what concerns the game itself is dead and not just faking) then you can't solve it by human means. Therefore dead people shouldn't be allowed to affect the game (but they can affect the backstage).

My hope is that, if Ryuukishi chose this way, he had at least respected this basic principle.

Also this would be the only way to explain why in EP6 "dead" people cannot help.

The case of Kanon and Shannon still remains a bold trickery. There are two possibilities here. if "Shannon" and "Kanon" are two characters in the game portrayed by the same player, then by logic for what concerns the game they are two distinct persons, but in that case none of the tricks used could be considered legit. Therefore it must be that even inside the game there is only one character "Yasu" (who by the way is the culprit) that has many identities.

Basically this means that even with this "game" theory you still have the "trick" of the red claiming the death of an identity and not an actual character.
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Old 2011-12-17, 18:58   Link #26442
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes that's basically how it should work. If to solve a mystery you need to think that a dead person (which for what concerns the game itself is dead and not just faking) then you can't solve it by human means. Therefore dead people shouldn't be allowed to affect the game (but they can affect the backstage).

My hope is that, if Ryuukishi chose this way, he had at least respected this basic principle.

Also this would be the only way to explain why in EP6 "dead" people cannot help.

The case of Kanon and Shannon still remains a bold trickery. There are two possibilities here. if "Shannon" and "Kanon" are two characters in the game portrayed by the same player, then by logic for what concerns the game they are two distinct persons, but in that case none of the tricks used could be considered legit. Therefore it must be that even inside the game there is only one character "Yasu" (who by the way is the culprit) that has many identities.

Basically this means that even with this "game" theory you still have the "trick" of the red claiming the death of an identity and not an actual character.
True, but ShKanon was only needed for one trick, ever. It wasn't even useful for anything else. The only other time a double identity of any kind was really useful in dodging Reds was for Nanjo's murder in EP3, and even that had the dying Kyrie theory that was never denied.
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Old 2011-12-17, 19:13   Link #26443
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Indeed, and one need only look at LyricalAura's list of points of how useful fake-death would be for everyone, as well as Beatrice-as-writer, and yet apparently none of those plot points were used. If they had been, it would be a better hint about the... flexibility... of the red. But they wound up not really being utilized for much of anything important or useful, like Shkanon.
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Old 2011-12-17, 19:26   Link #26444
UsagiTenpura
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Thinking the game theory thing makes arc 8 quite interesting seeing as there are two gamemaster.
How would that work on a tabletop rpg, just to know?
And is Ryuukishi ever going to release "Beatrice's gameboard - the game" ?
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Old 2011-12-17, 19:47   Link #26445
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How would that work on a tabletop rpg, just to know?
Awful idea, generally speaking.

Well to be honest, multiple Game Masters are the norm wherever you have a lot of players and where you can or, by the rules of the game, you need to make separate sessions. This is usually done in "Play by forum" or "Play by IRC/chat" RPG.
Even then, one head Game Master and the other as helpers is probably the best way. And even if there isn't a pyramidal structure, the Game Masters should strickly cooperate and define the plot clearly before each session.

If you don't, well... expect logic errors to appear everywhere. I have no idea how the logic error issue works in Umineko when you have two Game Masters. Who of the two will have to pay the toll for it?
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Old 2011-12-17, 21:08   Link #26446
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Thinking the game theory thing makes arc 8 quite interesting seeing as there are two gamemaster.
How would that work on a tabletop rpg, just to know?
There are many story-driven tabletop games where more than one person, or perhaps everyone, has "Gamemaster" responsibilities. Universalis, for example, is a game where everyone creates the setting collaboratively and controls the events and fates of the characters. Who gets control of a certain things and who wins disputes being decided with things like earning and spending "tokens" and things like that. It's workable.

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And is Ryuukishi ever going to release "Beatrice's gameboard - the game" ?
I'm actually in the process of making a "Meta-World" capsystem for tabletop roleplaying in general; You could run the Rokkenjima tragedy, sure, but you could also just add a "meta-layer" onto any possible game, including Dungeons and Dragons, Shadowrun, whatever the hell you're playing.

Maybe I'll post a link when it's done or something, but that might not be for a while.
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:41   Link #26447
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post


I'm actually in the process of making a "Meta-World" capsystem for tabletop roleplaying in general; You could run the Rokkenjima tragedy, sure, but you could also just add a "meta-layer" onto any possible game, including Dungeons and Dragons, Shadowrun, whatever the hell you're playing.

Maybe I'll post a link when it's done or something, but that might not be for a while.

It's actually is a cool ideas...

It might be out of place, but eh, could I ask if you;re really Italian half Japanese and related somehow to Ryukishi? (I remember you said something along the line before)

Or maybe I'm just overtly naive.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:04   Link #26448
AuraTwilight
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I don't remember saying I was Italian, but I do have Japanese in me. I'm not all that closely associated with Ryukishi. We like, spoke a couple times at this big doujin writer's convention in like 2006, and we shared some ideas and kind of hit it off, but we tapered off after a few emails, and aside from an email back in 2009 (and a more recent one, see below), we haven't talked sense.

I wouldn't consider us really close, or act like I have an 'insider connection' or anything. Though it might please people to know that I'm not as angry with him anymore. We exchanged emails again like a week ago, and I've gotten an apology for some things, got some details on other things that made me feel like there was a bit of a misunderstanding, etc.

Nothing that would be useful or relevant to any of you guys, and it's sort of on the personal side, so no email copypastas for you.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:18   Link #26449
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I'm starting to think about a few things with respect to the conversation that dominated the last, like, ten pages.

Now I'm starting to think it's not even relevant. Sorry, uh, me and everyone else. More on this when I'm not redumbculous.
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Last edited by Renall; 2011-12-18 at 03:28.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:32   Link #26450
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To add on to Renall's comment, he and I talked about a potentially REVOLUTIONARY idea that might make Umineko awesome and perfect and radical again, but it falls pretty damn hard in the Wild Mass Guessing territory. We'll post it when we make it more coherent and eloquent to read, because fuck dumping a big ass AIM chatlog.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:37   Link #26451
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hey guys. i just read some of the Ep8 and i somehow got interested at some part of it.
Spoiler for Ep8:
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:45   Link #26452
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
hey guys. i just read some of the Ep8 and i somehow got interested at some part of it.
Spoiler for Ep8:
You can find an old discussion on that matter starting from here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...93#post3489693

the image I posted includes screens that are still in the code but where hidden in the final version.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:50   Link #26453
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What was excluded was always less interesting than why he chose to take certain things out. I don't know that we ever had a conclusive answer.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:56   Link #26454
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My guess is that he either made a late choice to be more ambiguous, or that he tried to make it less Eva's diary in particular and more a general recount of the events.

In any case I think the George slide was him having a confrontation with his mother over Shannon.
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Old 2011-12-18, 03:57   Link #26455
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Or also why he hid those but didn't remove them. We aren't just talking about lines in a code. The bmp images are still there occupying precious space for nothing.

As I said I didn't do any screenshots to create that slideshow image.
The one with Kyrie and the gun for example is arc\bmp\background\efe\e8.bmp

Did the guys at 07expansion underestimated the fanbase and its ability to extract the files (even knowing that witch hunt needs to do that to create the patches) or were they counting on that?
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Old 2011-12-18, 04:00   Link #26456
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@ Jan/Aura thanks for the answers.

I've been thinking that someone's diary shouldn't be "red truth". Red truth isn't supposed to exist in the human world, so that seems to imply "Rokkenjima prime disaster/Ange's future" is another tale, perhaps a possibility that follows a logic akin to Lion's world (both introduced as a low probability by Bernkastel).
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Old 2011-12-18, 04:01   Link #26457
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I can't speak universally, but in video game tradition, for instance, information and content is dummied out instead of being deleted because it could cause defragmentation, and it was only ever overwritten to make room for something new on a cartridge or disc. Digital Creative Communities in the West and East both, video-game related or otherwise, generally take to the tradition of leaving stuff physically present unused in a product to encourage people who uncover "easter eggs" in something's code or files. Maybe Ryukishi decided to do the same thing here, as a "Why not?" sort of thing.

Quote:
I've been thinking that someone's diary shouldn't be "red truth". Red truth isn't supposed to exist in the human world, so that seems to imply "Rokkenjima prime disaster/Ange's future" is another tale, perhaps a possibility that follows a logic akin to Lion's world (both introduced as a low probability by Bernkastel).
Yea, I would agree. It's entirely possible we never see Rokkenjima Prime at any point ever, not even in the endings. At the very least, Prime doesn't seem to be a priority to Ryukishi. Perhaps, though the gameboards are acknowledged to be "tales", Ryukishi was going for a "turtles all the way up" sort of approach, ending only at our personal reality?
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Old 2011-12-18, 04:02   Link #26458
Renall
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I think it's laziness. Ryukishi never removes anything, and he puts in things that he never used. I've ranted about this before, but a huge part of the bloat of the DVD footprint (it started at like 800 MB and by ep8 is 3 GB) is because of unoptimized and unutilized portraits.

Every incarnation of Beatrice, for example (there's four of those) has every single portrait of every single expression that the original one had. I don't think he intended to leave certain expressions (like hair-down dress Beato's troll faces) as something for people to find and speculate on. I think he just made all of them by swapping out some heads and whatnot in Photoshop (or whatever he uses), decided which ones he was going to use for the script, and then left all the unused ones there because... I dunno, he might come back and use them in a later episode? Or just because?

He's kinda lazy on that front, I think.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-12-18, 04:03   Link #26459
UsagiTenpura
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Did the guys at 07expansion underestimated the fanbase and its ability to extract the files (even knowing that witch hunt needs to do that to create the patches) or were they counting on that?
The Tomitake impossible to normally get cameo seems to imply he could've actually counted on that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, I would agree. It's entirely possible we never see Rokkenjima Prime at any point ever, not even in the endings. At the very least, Prime doesn't seem to be a priority to Ryukishi. Perhaps, though the gameboards are acknowledged to be "tales", Ryukishi was going for a "turtles all the way up" sort of approach, ending only at our personal reality?
Well that could very well be the case.
I'm too tired to get into this right now but there's the idea that the whole of it indeed a tale anyway (to us) and that the author theory is to make us think of them as tales in our means of solving, judging and understanding them and the author and his intents rather then making the tales inherently "fake" (next to a more real reality that still remains a tale to us). A Rokkenjima Prime ends up just being a sort of basic backstory that ends where the tales begins (and as arc 7 showed even that could be altered).

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-18 at 04:21.
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Old 2011-12-18, 08:21   Link #26460
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The Tomitake impossible to normally get cameo seems to imply he could've actually counted on that...
good point...
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