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Old 2014-10-13, 17:04   Link #3781
Nicaea
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Kouen's doing the wrong things for arguably good reasons. (If he can be believed. And if you discount his arrogance, which is part of why he does things, and a terrible reason.) I don't know why his supposed good intentions should give him a pass on the terrible things he's done, and the terrible things he's about to do.

Hakuryu's doing the right things (mixed with some wrong too...) for arguably bad reasons. (Though I'd say "Gyokuen is thoroughly, irredeemably evil" is a good reason to remove her, no matter how personal it gets.)
pretty much this. I can't really think of Hakuryuu as rotten to the core. He had scrupules but unlike Alibabba he brushed them away. He found his resolve and acknowledged that he might be doing it for the wrong reasons. You can't call someone who thought to this degree rotten to the core.
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Old 2014-10-13, 18:26   Link #3782
Bogart
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Kouen's doing the wrong things for arguably good reasons. (If he can be believed. And if you discount his arrogance, which is part of why he does things, and a terrible reason.) I don't know why his supposed good intentions should give him a pass on the terrible things he's done, and the terrible things he's about to do.
What terrible things has he done?

Quote:
Hakuryu's doing the right things (mixed with some wrong too...) for arguably bad reasons. (Though I'd say "Gyokuen is thoroughly, irredeemably evil" is a good reason to remove her, no matter how personal it gets.)
Does a doctor kill his patient to treat the disease?

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Originally Posted by Nicaea View Post
pretty much this. I can't really think of Hakuryuu as rotten to the core. He had scrupules but unlike Alibabba he brushed them away. He found his resolve and acknowledged that he might be doing it for the wrong reasons. You can't call someone who thought to this degree rotten to the core.
He's dangerous enough that the distinction doesn't matter. Fact is people are going to freak out when you kill someone, no matter how much they might deserve it.
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Old 2014-10-13, 18:33   Link #3783
dazo
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
I'm inclined to think that Hakuryuu is a monster frankly.
not yet...
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
At everyone else's expense.
well..that is something normal in some situations/for some persons(more if we talk about heirs,politics, economic or revenge)
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
If you are a good king at the head of a good government, there is no problem. Democracies aren't better than other forms of government. Frankly, a people are every bit as likely to be corrupt and fickle as an individual, and aren't anywhere near as responsible.
the problem with a "good king" is that "good" mean good for your personal view....and nobody can be 100 accepted or 100% good.

its true that "the democracy system" is not the panacea, but if is fully applicable with a good core, then it can protect the citizen against tyrants. - at leas till we find a better system
(democracy mean that the divine right is bs, prevent a civil war , one person cant rule for more than a few years)
if the people are uncultured or corrupt, they deserve their fate, in any case troughs chaos human can learn..so, it a good thing that the people can make a mistake that can be corrected in a few years without a blood bath.

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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
What exactly is broken? The fact that an angry little putz like Hakuryuu didn't become king?
the heir line and.. ...well..yes....
that is the problem with monarchies,, the divine right is"divine" so...the kou empire is under a structural problem...kouen family were never destined to be the principal family..they can take the throne..yes...but they need to deal with the previous heir..

both can obtain the crow, but they must fight for it (unless one of them choose the exile...and only alibaba can accept this type of destiny...well...alibaba was a son outside the imperial family and his brother are alive ..so its something different)

and usually this type of problems are destined to have a bad ending as you can see in the literature, human story, and in the actual society(with the respective changes to our actual life style)

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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
Even if the 2nd Emperor was complicit, En was not.
mmm i wonder about kouen, if some theories are right...i wonder at what age he obtain astaroth....well..this is for other day.

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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
Compared to now with the flagrant murder of his own mother and the usurpation of the throne for himself, Hakuryuu has threatened the family bonds that hold the Kou Empire together. Even if he were otherwise a good king and ruler (he is very likely incapable of being this), his becoming king would threaten the long term survival of Kou. A short history of back stabbing and treachery is all that awaits them.
well...this show that they are human...human are like that..idk if we can talk about famyli bonds in politic(or in Hakuryuu case..too much bs in his life with his uncle and his mother/brother)...more in the age that magi take place..... and every empire must fall at some point..(back stabbing and treachery is part of the risk that every ruler must accept)

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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Never assume that you are in full control of something that is living, breathing, thinking, and has a goal that will eventually kill every single thing on the planet.
even if they can break the mind control..i am sure that judar or Hakuryuu have some countermeasure for this...they know the power of al-thamen...
i suppose that they are destined to become cannon fodder in Hakuryuu civil war.

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Originally Posted by Nicaea View Post
pretty much this. I can't really think of Hakuryuu as rotten to the core. He had scrupules but unlike Alibabba he brushed them away. He found his resolve and acknowledged that he might be doing it for the wrong reasons. You can't call someone who thought to this degree rotten to the core.
this
_______________-

Quote:
What terrible things has he done?
general of a army that want to conquer the world through war , and that fact that he is "using" al thamen " methods as part of his campaign "

well..this depend if the proper heir want war or not..
Quote:
Does a doctor kill his patient to treat the disease?
.....yes and no...some treatment are very.."strong/hard"
in some case , these treatment are going to "kill" you in a few years..
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Last edited by dazo; 2014-10-13 at 18:44.
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Old 2014-10-13, 20:12   Link #3784
Bogart
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Originally Posted by dazo View Post
general of a army that want to conquer the world through war , and that fact that he is "using" al thamen " methods as part of his campaign "
Be specific. Saying "wars and using Al Thamen" is like claiming that there were no mitigating circumstances behind Hakuryuu killing his own mother.
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Old 2014-10-13, 22:42   Link #3785
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Kouen's doing the wrong things for arguably good reasons. (If he can be believed. And if you discount his arrogance, which is part of why he does things, and a terrible reason.) I don't know why his supposed good intentions should give him a pass on the terrible things he's done, and the terrible things he's about to do.
It's not about giving him a pass. To begin with this isn't a perfect world. It's a medieval world and everyone is pretty much evil by our standards, perhaps with the exception of the three main characters. My point is not that Kouen is a saint or anything like that. I'm just saying that he's a far better king that Hakuryuu could ever be, and that Hakuryuu's hatred is a disaster waiting to happen.

Quote:
Hakuryu's doing the right things (mixed with some wrong too...) for arguably bad reasons. (Though I'd say "Gyokuen is thoroughly, irredeemably evil" is a good reason to remove her, no matter how personal it gets.)
What are these "right things" he's supposedly doing. Killing Gyokuen? Perhaps, if she's actually dead, but other than that, he's no doing anything that can be considered right. Taking the throne of Kou isn't the right thing to do unless he can prove he'd make a better king than Kouen, which he doesn't because we know he doesn't care about anyone but himself. And we can't say his methods are any less questionable than Kouen's. He's already mind-fucking people left and right after all. Judar himself said Hakuryuu wouldn't have even one supporter if he hadn't used his power on them. Do you think that's king material? Please, he's just a Sasuke. A little kid who can't get over his shit.
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Old 2014-10-13, 23:18   Link #3786
Redhazard
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's not about giving him a pass. To begin with this isn't a perfect world. It's a medieval world and everyone is pretty much evil by our standards, perhaps with the exception of the three main characters. My point is not that Kouen is a saint or anything like that. I'm just saying that he's a far better king that Hakuryuu could ever be, and that Hakuryuu's hatred is a disaster waiting to happen.
As opposed to world domination plans?

Hakuryuu killed the evil empress, subjugated the evil organization (for now at least), and took his rightful place in the throne.

Did he use less than nice means for it? Yep.

You can't really say he did something wrong there though. In fact, given Al-Thamen's goal is world destruction, it can be said he did what was necessary.
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Old 2014-10-13, 23:54   Link #3787
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Redhazard View Post
As opposed to world domination plans?
Yes. Hakyryuu will destroy the world unless he's stopped. That's the typical route for someone who's driven by hatred.

Quote:
Hakuryuu killed the evil empress
Yes.

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took his rightful place in the throne.
It might be his right, but that's irrelevant. The question is, can he be a better king than Kouen for the Kou empire. The answer is a clear no, because he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

Quote:
You can't really say he did something wrong there though.
It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether he can be a better king than Kouen. He can't. He's just a mad man driven by hatred. Just look at the latest chapter (243). He's losing it already.
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:00   Link #3788
Redhazard
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yes. Hakyryuu will destroy the world unless he's stopped. That's the only end for someone who's driven by hatred.
That's an awfully big assumption.

Especially for someone who is pretty nice most of the time.

Also, chapter 243 is a flashback, a flashback of him
Spoiler:
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:04   Link #3789
Bogart
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You can't really say he did something wrong there though. In fact, given Al-Thamen's goal is world destruction, it can be said he did what was necessary.
Coups are never a good thing.
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:07   Link #3790
Redhazard
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
Coups are never a good thing.
If you are taking down the corrupt leader of the government who wants to destroy the world... yes, they are.
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:54   Link #3791
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
What terrible things has he done?
Oh, right, you don't consider conquering other countries to be a bad thing. Well, in that case, what's your beef with Hakuryu? He conquered Kou, that's all.

Quote:
Does a doctor kill his patient to treat the disease?
What patient are you talking about? Because even if he ends up killing Kou as a country... how is that any worse than what En's already done and wants to do some more, to everyone?

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He's dangerous enough that the distinction doesn't matter. Fact is people are going to freak out when you kill someone, no matter how much they might deserve it.
Ah, yes, and En's such a harmless lamb.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's not about giving him a pass. To begin with this isn't a perfect world. It's a medieval world and everyone is pretty much evil by our standards, perhaps with the exception of the three main characters. My point is not that Kouen is a saint or anything like that. I'm just saying that he's a far better king that Hakuryuu could ever be, and that Hakuryuu's hatred is a disaster waiting to happen.
Well, that depends. En's chosen course of action could easily end with the death of anyone and everyone who needs food and water. Hakuryu at least tries to pull Al Tharmen's fangs. So, as someone who needs food and water himself, my sympathies goes with the latter.

And we don't know what Hakuryu's stance on world conquest is... though granted, with Judar at his side, there's little reason to be optimistic.


Quote:
What are these "right things" he's supposedly doing. Killing Gyokuen? Perhaps, if she's actually dead, but other than that, he's no doing anything that can be considered right. Taking the throne of Kou isn't the right thing to do unless he can prove he'd make a better king than Kouen, which he doesn't because we know he doesn't care about anyone but himself. And we can't say his methods are any less questionable than Kouen's. He's already mind-fucking people left and right after all. Judar himself said Hakuryuu wouldn't have even one supporter if he hadn't used his power on them. Do you think that's king material? Please, he's just a Sasuke. A little kid who can't get over his shit.
As I said, he's fighting Al Tharmen. And he's drawing En's attention to domestic matters rather than more conquest.

Yes, that could spell Kou's end in the long run. But that would be a good thing for the world at large, and I think you underestimate the dangers of having En as a king.
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:54   Link #3792
Bogart
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Originally Posted by Redhazard View Post
If you are taking down the corrupt leader of the government who wants to destroy the world... yes, they are.
If said leader is sitting on her hands not bothering anyone, then it's bad.
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Old 2014-10-14, 00:55   Link #3793
dazo
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Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
Be specific. Saying "wars and using Al Thamen" is like claiming that there were no mitigating circumstances behind Hakuryuu killing his own mother.
the mere fact that kouen is in war for his own view of the world is bad thing per se, yes, he is doing it for a greater good but he is bringing misery to others, also, don't forget that he think that he can control al-thamen/"they are a part of his body", you cant control al-thamen without messing with their heads , because these dudes come from the original world.

hakuryuu is a person that want to kill his mother because she is the responsible of his brother/father dead..and.. she also want to destroy the world.(and his mother want to start wars and rebellion around world)

but , at the same time, hakuryuu want to recover his empire for his own selfish desire(his old empire), while kouen want to unify the world under his kingdom for his own selfish desire(his view)..

both are doing this for selfish reason and doesn't matter the side , both are going to bring pain to innocent people..even if they want to create/recover something good.

so....at the end this depend in our personal view of what should be done, i prefer hakuryuu because he is fighting for his throne and at the same time he is fighting/mental washing al-thamen...a organization that want to burn the world..and he is not in a "one culture" plot

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yes. Hakyryuu will destroy the world unless he's stopped. That's the typical route for someone who's driven by hatred.
no, he is not going to burn the world....that is the point of these chapter...he is fighting to recover and reorder his country...

Quote:
It might be his right, but that's irrelevant. The question is, can he be a better king than Kouen for the Kou empire. The answer is a clear no, because he doesn't care about anyone but himself.
but..he care for his empire..
"i have to restore the true form of the koue empire "

and, he also know that he need to take his mother out of the map to prevent a much bigger rebellion in the future..

Quote:
It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether he can be a better king than Kouen. He can't. He's just a mad man driven by hatred.
...... i still think that Hakyryuu is quite a decent guy in a bad situation...and he is taking the "direct confrontation" method to deal with his problem(not friendship - no exile )..and i really interested in this change of pace

..and he is not a person with just revenge in his mind....he have a work to do as the heir of his family ideals...

seriously..the dude is not a hatred machine...he have his own grudge, but he can think beyond that..
______________-
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If said leader is sitting on her hands not bothering anyone, then it's bad.
....if the leader is just sitting..then.. that is good reason to kick his ass....he need to work in order to make a better country...

...and this is a little out of place example...because i doubt that a leader is just going to sit(council a.k.a back stabber - economic battles are going to be there..always..)...and more if we are talking about any king in magi(if you want to refer this to kouen.. then no..the dude is in war campaign + he is there because arba have him by his ball for that damn testament...so he is not sitting in a corner.. and he is a little silly to left his county in other hands )

in any case... a coup occur for a reason...they have a problem as their bases...
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Old 2014-10-14, 01:00   Link #3794
Bogart
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Oh, right, you don't consider conquering other countries to be a bad thing.
That depends on a lot of things.

Quote:
Well, in that case, what's your beef with Hakuryu? He conquered Kou, that's all.
He's driving his country into a needless civil war for purely selfish reasons.

Basically everything any of you could find faulty with Kouen, Hakuryuu also has. Now add a revenge streak a mile long, deep personal traumas, a casual disregard for human life, and an enormous sense of entitlement. Hakuryuu is much younger than En. He doesn't have the familial relationships that En has. He doesn't have En's experience or perspective.

Last edited by Bogart; 2014-10-14 at 01:11.
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Old 2014-10-14, 01:03   Link #3795
Anh_Minh
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And I'd argue the civil war is pretty needed if they want to keep their world habitable.

And that I'm not nearly as interested as you are in motivations, En's or Hakuryu's.
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Old 2014-10-14, 01:25   Link #3796
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And I'd argue the civil war is pretty needed if they want to keep their world habitable.
To which I'd say Al-Thamen are not that big of a problem or are not a problem that is all that easily solved. They hardly matter in the scheme of things as long as they don't accomplish their goal. The whole world does not need to unite to defeat them and Kou has no interest in helping them to achieve their goal.

In a nutshell, if you know you are being manipulated, you can do something about it. That's the kind of relationship Kou had with Al-Thamen. Now they're in a situation where Hakuryuu thinks either he has complete control over them or that they're dead. He thinks he's won and that is more dangerous than simply fighting or resisting them.

Quote:
And that I'm not nearly as interested as you are in motivations, En's or Hakuryu's.
It's a question of character. If En were actually a bad ruler, Hakuryuu might have some justification for what he's doing, but En is not a bad ruler and Hakuryuu knows it. All Hakuryuu sees is a rival for what he believes to rightfully belong to him, despite the fact that the feeling is not mutual.
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Old 2014-10-14, 01:45   Link #3797
Anh_Minh
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To which I'd say Al-Thamen are not that big of a problem or are not a problem that is all that easily solved. They hardly matter in the scheme of things as long as they don't accomplish their goal. The whole world does not need to unite to defeat them and Kou has no interest in helping them to achieve their goal.

In a nutshell, if you know you are being manipulated, you can do something about it. That's the kind of relationship Kou had with Al-Thamen. Now they're in a situation where Hakuryuu thinks either he has complete control over them or that they're dead. He thinks he's won and that is more dangerous than simply fighting or resisting them.
Unless you think merely knowing you're manipulated is protection against manipulation, in which case, you're double-hosed.

Concrete example: everyone knows advertising is bullshit. It still works.

Concrete Magi example: En should have become emperor at his father's death. He didn't.

And you underestimate the danger posed by Al Thamen. They came very close the last time. Letting them have the power of a world conquering empire is a terrible idea.
Quote:
It's a question of character. If En were actually a bad ruler, Hakuryuu might have some justification for what he's doing, but En is not a bad ruler and Hakuryuu knows it. All Hakuryuu sees is a rival for what he believes to rightfully belong to him, despite the fact that the feeling is not mutual.
En embarks on a course that'll mean either world destruction or world war (which they're in no way guaranteed to win). Whether Hakuryu's any better is debatable, but at least he's trying. And impeding En, which is something all by itself.
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Old 2014-10-14, 02:30   Link #3798
Nicaea
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Why are we actually giving Hakuryuu flak for killing Gyokuen and claiming the throne? I mean, she had to die at some point. If it wasn't Hakuryuu, it would've been Kouen. And it would have been Kouen, the 5th prince of Kou taking the crown.



Also I don't know why, but I need to see how he killed Gyokuen. I have this nasty feeling that she's just hiding or that she set Hakuryuu up.
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Old 2014-10-14, 02:41   Link #3799
dazo
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yep, i just checked the fan "translation" of 243
and i have to say this:

belial:




Spoiler for topics and spoilers :

______________

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicaea View Post
Why are we actually giving Hakuryuu flak for killing Gyokuen and claiming the throne? I mean, she had to die at some point. If it wasn't Hakuryuu, it would've been Kouen. And it would have been Kouen, the 5th prince of Kou taking the crown.
mmm kouen the 5th prince taking the crow?

(so a what if discussion )
kouen is only a "prince/future king" because his father took the power after the former king death ....so he cant be called the 5th prince.... the original imperial family end with Hakuryuu..

in any case, he would be the 2 fake "prince"( after the rebellion plot and Hakuei would be/is the first princess), if the uncle king didn't choose to change in his benefice/advantage the heir line....

and Hakuryuu can claim the throne after killing his mother , because she is the last member of the original family on power( Hakuei is here ...but idk the inner politic/sucession law of kou, but something tell me that the authority must be a male..but arba have quite the power...though the testaments made kouen the future king and arba the "supervisor- helper".).....if kouen kill arba as a distant relative of the imperial family ..the only thing he can obtain is a death sentence

Quote:
Also I don't know why, but I need to see how he killed Gyokuen. I have this nasty feeling that she's just hiding or that she set Hakuryuu up.
we are in a new flashback arc so..we need to wait
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Old 2014-10-14, 03:21   Link #3800
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, that depends. En's chosen course of action could easily end with the death of anyone and everyone who needs food and water. Hakuryu at least tries to pull Al Tharmen's fangs. So, as someone who needs food and water himself, my sympathies goes with the latter.

And we don't know what Hakuryu's stance on world conquest is... though granted, with Judar at his side, there's little reason to be optimistic.
That's right, we don't know what Hakuryuu's stance on world conquest is, so let's put that aside for a second. Let's talk just about Kou. Do you seriously think Hakuryuu would make a better king for Kou than Kouen? I mean we're talking about a guy who has to brainwash his whole army and court because no one thinks he has what it takes. Let's not even talk about his motivation, which is purely selfish, and the fact that he's allied with Judar, who's probably as dangerous as Al Tharmen if not more. Kouen, on other hand, cares about his people and is throughly supported by the court and army. Yeah, he didn't want to destroy Al Tharmen, but again, Hakuryuu has Judar which is pretty much the same. Let's no forget that no matter what Judar says, he has taken part on Al Tharmen's actions since the start of the manga. Their goals might be different but he's as evil and dangerous as they are.

I personally think the answer is clear. Mind you, the point is kinda moot, since Alibaba will eventually kick his ass either way.
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