[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

-Magic of Miracles
-A Proper Mystery
-Closed Room Barrier
-Furudo Erika
-Witch of Miracles
-Those Who Reach It
-The Frantic Golden Drama
-The True Family Conference
-Revenge For 19 Years Ago
-Morning of Tragedy
-Ten Wedges to Pierce Witches
-Reasoning and Inspection
-Closet
-The Great Court of Illusions
-Revenge After 19 Years

there x)

Thank you =)

ONLY 15 CHAPTERS all the other episodes have more chapters i have just started and i am at Chapter 10: Morning of Tragedy, episode 5 is so great.

[vandakiara]

well the ??? was pretty big too... at least it seemed that way to me..

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by bigemperor

Thank you =)

ONLY 15 CHAPTERS all the other episodes have more chapters i have just started and i am at Chapter 10: Morning of Tragedy, episode 5 is so great.

There are only 15 chapters, but the halfway point for the game comes in the middle of chapter 10. You're only halfway there.

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

There are only 15 chapters, but the halfway point for the game comes in the middle of chapter 10. You're only halfway there.

OMG great to know it.

Well i don't know if anyone talk about this but i have one question, when lambda said:



why did she said WHAT NUMBER OCTUBER 4 1986 IS THIS????That means there were more than four games and battler can just remember the four games we know??????? mmmmmm

and i love this talk:






Is a direct help for us too, we don't have to think like in higurashi, UMINEKO IS A MISTERY HISTORY so the rules in higurashi don't apply here

Well at night i will enter the second part of this epic episode.

[Vegitto-kun]

I think that lamba was being some form of sarcastic or something

[ElderKain]

Is ne1 else having any problems with the Extreme Flashing after

Spoiler for Umineko Ep5 VN Spoiler:

Battler goes nuts after she explains her sin of 19 years ago...

It just keeps flashing with the sound effect of breaking glass over and over and once it goes fast, the game just closes down for me...

I don't know what's wrong >.<

[Knicknevin]

It's too early for me to formulate a real theory just yet, but just a few thinking points to ponder while I work on one...

Spoiler for Episode 5:

1) It was NEVER established that people could evade the '17 people rule' by arriving on the island late. Erika didn't prove anything by appearing- this was her first arrival on the island, and her appearance thus changed the rule to 18.


2) Battler is not the detective anymore, so his viewpoint is fallible. Proven when he saw, and even heard, Kinzo urging him toward the golden land.

He was, however, stated to be the detective in previous games, so this does not easily explain his encounters with Beatrice.


3) The times of death in the first twilight, both in this game and probably previous ones, is doubtful. TOD is generally established by Nanjo as being around midnight or shortly after, but as we learned, it could in fact be any point up until that corpse is discovered unless otherwise confirmed with the red. Or even some point after.

Just to make one example, in Episode 2, Rosa and the servants with her could have murdered the victims of the first twilight after she took the key from Maria and opened the door.


4) In case there was any doubt this was the case, the veracity of any scene in which the detective is not a direct witness can be denied.

However, the significance of these scenes does not change. Rather than trying to explain away all the 'magic', our efforts should be directed to the question of 'why were we shown this in the first place?'.

...

Ha, it's hilarious. Battler even makes a theory that he himself is the killer. That might even be the case in Episode 5, who knows. But still...


5) Battler might be the child from 19 years ago, or someone acting in that childs place. He might also be the culprit.

But those ideas are not necessarily mutually intrinsic to one another. He could be one, but not the other.


6) Beatrice has something she desperately wants Battler to remember or understand. The game has been constructed with that single goal in mind.

But if we assume that Battler (or someone else, realistically only George, Kanon or Shannon could qualify since Jessica was certainly not born at that time) is in fact the child from 19 years ago, he has obviously returned with a goal of his own. Do these goals conflict, or coincide?

To cast a Jessitrice spin on it, the scene immediately prior to Natsuhi speaking to the mystery caller, Jessica was speaking to Battler on the phone. Battler's viewpoint is now fallible, so we can doubt the content of that conversation (or that it happened at all). Maybe the topic of conversation wasn't something quite so innocent?

[Arachanox]

Spoiler for EP5/do we even need these tags anymore?:

In order to semi-permanently seal the fate of Person X, I piece together two red truths:

Both are from the chatper "Reasoning and Inspection":
At 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.
At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion.

Therefore, at midnight, the only conceivable way a Person X could exist undetected would be if s/he was hiding in the dining hall. Possible, but I feel it is highly implausible to the point where we can ignore Person X.

[Vega Lyra]

Are there currently any popular theories for what is going on behind EP5?

[Jan-Poo]

You mean specifically behind the mysteries of this game?

Because in general Ep5 pretty much enforces the idea that Battler's sin is a broken promise. After reading it translated it appears even more evident to me.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Are there currently any popular theories for what is going on behind EP5?

Well there is one popular theory that Juuza is the man who keeps calling Natsuhi.

[vandakiara]

But isn't the man already on the island and supposedly introduced from the begining?

On another note...

I was reading the Beatrice discussion thread and then I saw something Jan Poo wrote a few months ago:

"The name "Beatrice" refers to the character from Dante's Divine Comedy. However almost all the characters in that book were persons that really existed and Beatrice makes no exception. Could this Beatrice be the same Beatrice Dante fell in love with? That would be an interesting development, but that Beatrice was supposed to be angelic and certainly not a witch XD."

wasn't Dante also mentioned in this EP? can anyone remind me exactly how it was? From what I remember it was Battler who mentioned him in the Tea Party or in the ???.. It had something to do with waiting...

[Jan-Poo]

Yes he's been mentioned. That happens when Battler reminisces the discussion he had with Dlanor and Virgilia in the secret tea party.

Vergilius guided Dante to Mount Purgatory, ......and brought him below the feet of the eternal lady who waited at the top, Beatrice.

This is the very last thought that brought Battler to find the truth

[k//eternal]

So considering the people who "died" in the guesthouse weren't dead, what happened there?

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Are there currently any popular theories for what is going on behind EP5?

Think I'm gonna pass on the spoiler bars now. Proceed at your own risk.

Well... my line of thought thus far is that the cousins, Rosa and Genji were conspiring with the 'child from 19 years ago' and faked their deaths as part of a plan to corner Natsuhi. Again, seems to be Battler, but it could also be Jessica or George (they don't have to be the actual child, they might just be acting in its place). Krauss was also either part of the plot or kidnapped. All the victims that were found had makeup or some sort of disguise for their necks to make them appear to be slashed. Since their deaths were so obvious, they probably weren't even checked for a pulse.

Now, after Battler kicked up a fuss and everyone saw the bodies, they eventually made their way to the mansion. They found Genji, and then left him where he lay as well. Natsuhi got her phone call from the mystery caller, and could hear Krauss yelling at the other end. At this point, all the 'victims' got out of their beds and hid someplace else on the island.

I can substantiate this with the red:
-After George's death, the corpse wasn't moved！
-After Jessica's death、the corpse wasn't moved！
-After Maria's death、the corpse wasn't moved！
-After Rosa's death、the corpse wasn't moved！
-After Genji's death、the corpse wasn't moved！
-After Krauss's death、the corpse wasn't moved！

We know the bodies were not in the rooms. The detective, Erika, confirmed this herself. If the bodies didn't move after they died...

After all the 'victims' reached their saferoom, either one of their number killed them, and then committed suicide, or a third party killed them all. Suicide was denied in red, so the killer cannot be among the victims. But it doesn't make sense for the person who made this plan to kill them after they successfully faked their deaths...

Assuming the mystery caller does indeed exist, Hideyoshi might have been party to one of the plots here as well. Either the killer or the mystery caller (I'm assuming that they aren't in fact the same person) might have suggested a room for him to stay in, but the other party intercepted him and killed him in that very room. Natsuhi was supposed to be discovered by Hideyoshi and a case made that she was waiting for him to go to sleep so she could kill him like the rest. Instead he was killed inside his locked room, and Natsuhi nearly got away clean aside from one of her buttons coming off in the closet. But the killer may have left that there.

Natsuhi wasn't discovered in the closet because of two factors- Kyrie cleared everyone out and called Erika insistently before she could check the closet, and Battler physically pulled her away from it. Kyrie also had the idea to quickly search the bathroom after Hideyoshi was found. Was this a misdirection while the killer came out from hiding? Kyrie and Battler working together perhaps?

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

But isn't the man already on the island and supposedly introduced from the begining?

...

If and only if he is the culprit. If he is not the culprit, he is not forced to follow Knox's Decalogue (assuming it is in place), and therefore there can be unknown extra people.

That is, if you find a way around what I stated a few posts up about 'there being no unknown person X'. If you accept that unknown X does not exist, then in order to explain the existence of the young man, you must then believe that one of the original people is acting as if he were the young man, which leads to your conclusion.

If young man is not the culprit -> he can exist on the island -> but only if he isn't an unknown person X -> he must be hiding amongst the original people.

If young man is the culprit -> he must be already introduced per Knox rules -> he must be hiding amongst the original people.

Either way, the young man exists amongst the original people, regardless of being formally introduced or not. Unless you think it is a delusion of Natsuhi.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

^ where did you get that idea from? O.o

Well, she was giving out major hints like she did in EP3, despite having stated in that game that she wasn't that interested in solving it, and how did she get in the tunnel at the same time as Eva?

In related news, head hurts. What the hell is going on? How can anything that Erika does make sense? How are the witches able to screw this much with the kakera while following the rules?

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by imaginari

Well, she was giving out major hints like she did in EP3, despite having stated in that game that she wasn't that interested in solving it, and how did she get in the tunnel at the same time as Eva?

Rosa did solve it after Eva in EP3, but the game's situation changed for EP5 - neither of them solved it (in time, or at all).

Originally Posted by imaginari

In related news, head hurts. What the hell is going on? How can anything that Erika does make sense? How are the witches able to screw this much with the kakera while following the rules?

First of all, Erika is amazing best detective ever Bern's piece, and she knew a murder was going to happen so she set all her seals and traps up. And the witches can mess with the kakera because they have stolen Beatrice's game board and are messing with it for fun. As (Virgilia?) explained, they can't do things that Beatrice couldn't do, but they can do this that she wouldn't do.

[zampeitor]

I`ve just finished reading it and i must say it was simply awesome.
but i`m left with some doubts.
Wasn´t it specified with the red that the culprit must be the same for all games?
And didn´t they say that Battler wasn´t the culprit?
If that´s true, the Battler culprit theory for this game mustbe wrong, right?
It´s been quite a long time since i read the 1-4 episodes and the anime didn´t quite help me remember, so i´m pretty sure i`m wrong, but please bear with me.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by zampeitor

I`ve just finished reading it and i must say it was simply awesome.
but i`m left with some doubts.
Wasn´t it specified with the red that the culprit must be the same for all games?
And didn´t they say that Battler wasn´t the culprit?
If that´s true, the Battler culprit theory for this game mustbe wrong, right?
It´s been quite a long time since i read the 1-4 episodes and the anime didn´t quite help me remember, so i´m pretty sure i`m wrong, but please bear with me.

I don't ever remember there being a red statement saying "the culprit must be the same for all games." There were a few statements saying a few conditions applied to all games (such as Kinzo's death status), but nothing about "the culprit remains constant". Most likely, the culprit changes from game to game. Battler could not be the culprit for episodes 1 through 4 because he was the detective, but since he was NOT the detective for EP5 he could have been the culprit (although that possibility is denied in red).