Growing out of anime

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Is quality suffering as a result? I would say so. But then, you have to remember that the series which we may consider some of the best ever, may not have sold well. So it would not make sense for the anime industry to keep making shows like that, when they have proven not to sell.

To be fair, the peak in 2006 was completely unsustainable and it helped deal the anime industry in North America a mortal blow. To draw back from that level is probably more welcome than not. Moreover, anime's greatest creativity had always been in the movies and shorter OAVs, so it's a promising sign if they're making a comeback (I don't think that they're actually making a comeback). Heck, the shows with the greatest acclaim usually never were the best sellers in the first place, and they're generally not particularly popular here. Your point about there being 2-cour or longer shows is correct, but the long format really does seem to be making a comeback.

Ideally, the current trend see a scaling back of excess anime production (perhaps by a third), an increase in shorter works, and an emphasis on more original works. Well, the real ideal would be for anime to make money on regular Japanese (and North American) viewers, but that's sort of water under the bridge.

[Seishin]

Originally, I watched Pokemon and Dragonball Z. Eventually the lack of a solid plot deterred me from the series, when I went to Bleach,Gurren Lagann, and Naruto.
As I grew older, my tastes merely change. Now I have a weak spot for ecchi ,harems in addition to psychological anime. More recently, I've been watching darker seinen anime.
I'll probably never quit watching anime if there continues to be a firm storyline in place to hold my attention.

[Leo_Otaku]

There is good anime in every year and decade. There is always something, it is you who can't find anything (even if your picky).

[Vexx]

Hmmm, I'd say if someone thinks they're "growing out of" anime.... they probably only liked/watched one kind of anime to begin with - likely action shounen designed for youngsters. There's anime designed for 20-somethings and anime that even "old people" can appreciate (many of the seinen offerings or some of the shoujo even).

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Very misleading statement.

Production of hentai has increased, and production of 1 or 2 episode "series" have increased.

The number of anime produced with at least 3 episodes went down every year since the peak in 2006.

2010 had less 20+ episode anime than 1998 or 1999.

It isn't a stretch to say that the anime industry is responding to tough economic times and disappointing sales for some critically acclaimed (and popular here) series by shifting more towards porn and short shows aimed at the more reliable otaku audience.

Is quality suffering as a result? I would say so. But then, you have to remember that the series which we may consider some of the best ever, may not have sold well. So it would not make sense for the anime industry to keep making shows like that, when they have proven not to sell.

Up until 2006 there was a steady increase in titles produced. 2007 had a similiar number 2006. and 2008-2010 saw a decline in numbers. 2011 however is seeing another increase. So I'd say the financial crisis hit the anime industry causing an overall decrease in output over those 3 years. However I think (finger crossed) that decrease has bottomed out this year.

Over all though there are some very healthy signs in the Anime industry at the moment. Particularly the uptick in original productions, and the decrease in visual novel cashins (which were all generally subpar, with some exceptions).

I think the biggest sign of financial problems in 2008-2010 was the lack of Mecha or high profile "action" series. Those tend to be more expensive and a bit more "risky". However we're seeing a slow and gradual return to those. Another sign is that series are on the shorter side, so in 2006 1 cours series were 13 or even 14 episodes, while now 11 or 12 is more common. This is particularly apparent if you look at noitaminA.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Over all though there are some very healthy signs in the Anime industry at the moment. Particularly the uptick in original productions, and the decrease in visual novel cashins (which were all generally subpar, with some exceptions).

The anime industry isn't all that healthy right now because a lot of the shows that take risks are likely to be financial disasters as well. Hourou Musuko is the second-best show this year, and it's been a total failure. Madhouse is just abuot to go belly up after the loss that Redline represents.

The reason why Visual Novels were used as adaptation sources was largely due to availability reasons (among others), and light novels have largely replaced them. It's not that substantial an improvement. I'd be happier if quality shows sold more instead.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think the biggest sign of financial problems in 2008-2010 was the lack of Mecha or high profile "action" series. Those tend to be more expensive and a bit more "risky". However we're seeing a slow and gradual return to those. Another sign is that series are on the shorter side, so in 2006 1 cours series were 13 or even 14 episodes, while now 11 or 12 is more common. This is particularly apparent if you look at noitaminA.

noitaminA has run 11 episode shows from pretty much the beginning. It has more to do with the other programs in the time slot than anything else.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Hmmm, I'd say if someone thinks they're "growing out of" anime.... they probably only liked/watched one kind of anime to begin with - likely action shounen designed for youngsters. There's anime designed for 20-somethings and anime that even "old people" can appreciate (many of the seinen offerings or some of the shoujo even).

Or they just watched so much of anime that there really is very little left unexplored. Even something truly impressive appears as meh and the only reason they continue watching is because they realize that there is very little better stuff out there, if at all. It's like watching a "good" anime for the sole reason to see just to what degree it will utilize its potential. In other words, watching anime because you are addicted to it, more or less. I know I am. And I know I watch anime simply because why wouldn't I and not because bla bla. For the record I watch pretty much all genre - the only one I am weak at is Yaoi.

I think the key is to have low expectations. This applies not just to anime btw. Video games - especially Multiplayer ones and indie ones - are another case where I feel this way.

And it does help if people just try to go with the flow than to take up the mantle of being the critic. Being a critic isn't at all worth it unless you are being paid for it. Sure you can think about it and develop an opinion about it but to go into such detailed analysis - and be as it may, we all know that most criticism focuses on only the negative which has the effect of re-enforcing the doubts - is just not worth it. It only kills the fun you could otherwise have. Especially while you are watching the anime. Leave the serious discussions for later. Watch the show to enjoy it first.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Or they just watched so much of anime that there really is very little left unexplored. Even something truly impressive appears as meh and the only reason they continue watching is because they realize that there is very little better stuff out there, if at all.

That's pretty much impossible unless they've exhausted the huge library of vintage anime as well - and there are a minuscule number of viewers who have ever done that. There aren't a lot of current shows that are very similar to the older material, and there's a lot of good material there.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's pretty much impossible unless they've exhausted the huge library of vintage anime as well - and there are a minuscule number of viewers who have ever done that. There aren't a lot of current shows that are very similar to the older material, and there's a lot of good material there.

Eh, I've pretty much exhausted the library of "good" vintage Anime. It's easier then it looks. Particularly if you're a college student with a lot of time and little to do...

[xxanimefan4_ever]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Eh, I don't think there are really any more obscure great 90s shows that are unknown to the community. A lot of the shows I've seen people talk about (3x3 eyes, Dragonball, Trigun, Yu Yu Hakusho, SlayerS...) I found quite dissapointing.

There wasn't as much Anime made in the 90s, so it makes sense that there's less good stuff. The only 90s shows I thought were outstanding were Evangelion, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Cowboy Bebop, the Ghibli movies, and maybe Ghost in the Shell. Now I may have missed a few, but I doubt most of the rest of the 90s output were so good.

I would say more good anime came out in 2006 alone then in the whole of the 90s.

Isn't it weird that 2006 is FIVE years ago? I could swear Haruhi came out yesterday...

what I'm saying just take into consideration the possibility. there's no way to prove it to you or anything simply because they're not SUBBED or LICENSED. I know a couple great shows that should be subbed since they're so good but they're not....I'm saying from what I'VE SEEN there's good, even amazing/classic anime that are NOT subbed or licensed YET . that's just me talking about anime I've seen and im curiou as to other anime that might be out there that's really good but not subbed/licenesed. I just think it's unfair and rude to just call something off when you don't know about it its entirety?

But you know I love 2006 too! and that's why I will not compromise myself into watching shit that are being spewed out recently. I guess it makes sense why 2006 has so many anime since that's the year with the greatest number of anime being made (I thought that the number of anime per year increased after 2006 or something because of all the crap anime but no... it's because they made so much anime that there was so many good ones if you think about it in percentage lke top 5% or something). some people say they still make a couple good ones but I wouldn't know since I don't have time to watch and not to mention the betrayals of anime that were just shit despite the praise. I don't like being tricked lol. But really it's the time-factor....

oh and it's slayers next NOT slayers that's praised. (unless you just felt like saying slayesr to cover all 3 seasons)

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by xxanimefan4_ever

what I'm saying just take into consideration the possibility. there's no way to prove it to you or anything simply because they're not SUBBED or LICENSED. I know a couple great shows that should be subbed since they're so good but they're not....I'm saying from what I'VE SEEN there's good, even amazing/classic anime that are NOT subbed or licensed YET . that's just me talking about anime I've seen and im curiou as to other anime that might be out there that's really good but not subbed/licenesed. I just think it's unfair and rude to just call something off when you don't know about it its entirety?

Anything good would in all likelihood been uncovered by Otaku and in all likelihood subbed by now, like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Good shows tend survive, and bad ones are forgotten. I think western anime fans as a whole are pretty in tune with knowing what the "greats" are. The process you speak of has already pretty much occured. 90s anime has been pretty much scoured dry, what was good was subtitled already. There wasn't even that much Anime produced in the 90s (compared to the 2000s).

But you know I love 2006 too! and that's why I will not compromise myself into watching shit that are being spewed out recently. I guess it makes sense why 2006 has so many anime since that's the year with the greatest number of anime being made (I thought that the number of anime per year increased after 2006 or something because of all the crap anime but no... it's because they made so much anime that there was so many good ones if you think about it in percentage lke top 5% or something). some people say they still make a couple good ones but I wouldn't know since I don't have time to watch and not to mention the betrayals of anime that were just shit despite the praise. I don't like being tricked lol. But really it's the time-factor....

2006 was a great year precisely as you say, it had the largest number of Anime released of any year (though 2007 was only slightly lower). Only 5-10% of Anime is ever really good, so it stands to reason 2006 would have the most.

2008 through 2010 also a decline in number of Anime released, so consequently the amount of good anime also decreased. 2011, however, has seen an increase again. I can only presume the world economy had something to with this (2008-2010 happens to coincide with the world financial crisis...).

However there's still plenty of great anime. Tatami Galaxy, Bakemonogatari, FMA: brotherhood, Madoka... You just need to use MAL's search function, rank by score and input the years desired and you should get a decent snapshot of the good anime that year.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Hmmm, I'd say if someone thinks they're "growing out of" anime.... they probably only liked/watched one kind of anime to begin with - likely action shounen designed for youngsters. There's anime designed for 20-somethings and anime that even "old people" can appreciate (many of the seinen offerings or some of the shoujo even).

Agreed.

I don't think I could ever again be a 80% shonen anime fan (as I was at one time), but there are types of anime other than shonen, and I think that some of those types often have characters and/or stories that can appeal to an older audience.

There might come a time that I'm simply tired of anime, but I wouldn't consider that the same as "growing out of it".

[ArrowSmith]

There are always a few good series per 5 years.

[Kyuu]

I'll say this many times. And I'll say it again. I'll continue to watch anime till the day I die.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

There are always a few good series per 5 years.

Talk about low-balling it.

With those kinds of expectations, at least you're never disappointed.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed.

I don't think I could ever again be a 80% shonen anime fan (as I was at one time), but there are types of anime other than shonen, and I think that some of those types often have characters and/or stories that can appeal to an older audience.

There might come a time that I'm simply tired of anime, but I wouldn't consider that the same as "growing out of it".

I've had that happen to me, where I got "tired" of Anime. It's quite easy, but I think I'm past the age where I "grow out" of things now.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Talk about low-balling it.

With those kinds of expectations, at least you're never disappointed.

I've learned to adjust my expectations since 2006. Honestly I see myself being mostly done with anime in 2 years.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Anything good would in all likelihood been uncovered by Otaku and in all likelihood subbed by now, like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Good shows tend survive, and bad ones are forgotten. I think western anime fans as a whole are pretty in tune with knowing what the "greats" are. The process you speak of has already pretty much occured. 90s anime has been pretty much scoured dry, what was good was subtitled already. There wasn't even that much Anime produced in the 90s (compared to the 2000s).

xxanimefan4_ever is correct. There are a ton of great old shows that are pretty much ignored by most fans, and most of the vintage shows I was speaking of are from the '60s-'80s. This period is all but ignored by most fans, and you'll never hear about them unless you actually do research. In a way, this is a weakness of anime fandom in general, but it's also an indication of how otaku tastes have changed over the years. I would also hazard a guess that most of the shows from the '90s recommended to you don't encompass the best works of that era.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

xxanimefan4_ever is correct. There are a ton of great old shows that are pretty much ignored by most fans, and most of the vintage shows I was speaking of are from the '60s-'80s. This period is all but ignored by most fans, and you'll never hear about them unless you actually do research. In a way, this is a weakness of anime fandom in general, but it's also an indication of how otaku tastes have changed over the years. I would also hazard a guess that most of the shows from the '90s recommended to you don't encompass the best works of that era.

Well, as far as I'm aware, the major gap for me for the 90s are the Masterpiece theatre type shows, but I didn't necessarily get into Anime for that type of thing. If I wanted Heidi, or the Dog of Flanders, I'd actually read those books. As for choosing vintage shows to watch, my first port of call is usually MAL, rather then the reccomendation of any given person (my experience with reccomendations has been poor, randomly picking stuff off MAL goes better for me, the higher up the list it is, the more likely it is to be good, particularly with old stuff).

Going down the list on MAL, I haven't seen:
* Slam Dunk (Sports Shonen-> little interest)
* Romeo no Aoi Sora (No interest, due to above)
* Yu Yu Hakusho (Shonen-> little interest)
* Berserk (probably should watch that)
* Kodomo no Omocha (ehhhh)
* Flanders no Inu (Same as Romeo)
* Slayers Next (no real interest)

And that's the first page, I've seen every other thing on the first page (14 titles), and a fair few on the next one. I've seen the likes of Trigun and Giant Robo and found those brands of 90s stuff to be not to my taste. I've also watched some 80s titles as well.

Now if you're saying there's some amazing Anime that's not on that list (perfectly possible), due to a) being somehow overlooked by the 1000s of Anime fans out there or b) not being fansubbed, then I admit that there would be perhaps more. But I have no way of meaningfully knowing the existence of those titles. If I was somehow alerted to those titles I'd watch them and probably enjoy them (as I have with LoGH, Gunbuster, Cowboy Bebop, All the Ghibli movies...) but as they have not been brought to my attention through either a) buzz or b) presence on MAL or ANN's top list, there's little I can do.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed.

I don't think I could ever again be a 80% shonen anime fan (as I was at one time), but there are types of anime other than shonen, and I think that some of those types often have characters and/or stories that can appeal to an older audience.

There might come a time that I'm simply tired of anime, but I wouldn't consider that the same as "growing out of it".

I think 'growing out of it' as a phrase can come off as kind of insulting, especially to older fans who clearly are grown already.

But to word it differently, my anime tastes were always diverse, and I'm pretty damn burnt out from my peak days of watching (2004-2007ish). So while Vexx's theory may be accurate for some, I don't think it describes my predicament. I've actually been trying to get back into the hobby for about a year now, with little success.

I think the idea of 'growing out of it' kind of stems from people who watched anime during their adolescence or childhood, loved it, and gradually changed as people over the years (as we all do) and find it harder to gain enjoyment. So it's not necessarily because of being more mature or anything like that, but rather the individual's tastes and interests being variable and always evolving, with the most rapid changes usually happening during adolescence. I know the person I am today versus the person who registered to this forum in 2004 are very different. My maturity is not the reason I gain less enjoyment from anime. But the changes that have occurred with age, perhaps not in relation to maturity but rather just natural waxing and waning of passions, are definitely a component. Really, I have trouble enjoying most forms of fiction nowadays (some exceptions, of course) whereas I used to love it. I'm becoming a boring non-fiction guy, I guess, lol.