Shield Hero - The Slave Seal (Anime-only; only mention it here)[No Spoilers]

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Demi.

This all seems kinda silly to me. To call it Stockholm Syndrome is objectively false in the first place. Naofumi is not even her captor, he is her savior.

Naofumi didn't choose Raph as his slave because he wanted to save her, he wanted something to train to be his sword. If she died while fighting Naofumi would've returned there and get another slave. She was a tool at the beginning, Naofumi even said that she should be at least worth the silver he paid for her.

Herein lies the difference between shield hero and other shows with slaves in it, (death march and isekai maou being the most recent examples) Naofumi didn't see Raph as a person at first, she was a tool, useful only as child labor.

The anime plays this angle and it's something both Raphtalia notices and us as the audience should notice. He saved her from a cage where she was dying from an illness and has nightmare terrors so she had no possible chance of being taken in by a good family.

"Hey I really bought you as a slave to fight with but I'll treat you real good and stuff so we're even right? Don't worry about the fact that I'll have to use the crest at the beginning to force you to fight, or that I'm doing my best to keep you in great condition so that you can fight with full strength everyday and get a nice return for what I paid for you, you'll love it soon enough anyway."

Stockholm syndrome is also also a survival strategy to protect themselves from their captors. Raphtalia's strong desire to be with Naofumi was because he did treat her well and the alternatives would have been drastically worse. Over time she developed feelings for him after getting to know why the bitterness existed in him and that deep down he was a good person who protected her; despite also needing her to fight for him. It also helps that Raphtalias parents mentioned that the shield hero was the one hero who treated demi-humans better than anyone else.

Raph wasn't kidnapped, but she had no choice but to go with whatever Naofumi wanted because of the seal, even if Naofumi didn't use the seal often there's always the threat that he'd use it if Raph didn't follow his instructions.

If Raph over time and when she matured thought that her life wasn't so bad after all and decided to stick with Naofumi (even going so far as to restore the seal even if it's useless) then it's all well and good, but you'll never shake off the fact that there was a time when she was coerced into doing things that she didn't want, and one will never be sure whether it's a fully conscious decision or if it's tainted with the conditioning created by the seal when she's still a child.

Raphtalia was a child in need of a parent, and Naofumi filled that role for her. That was her initial feeling, but as she started to age those feelings sprouted into a more romantic kind of feeling. She sees him as a man, and while she may have the experience of a ten year old, she has the body of an adult and all of the quirks that come with it.

Part of my confusion might be because of this. Raph at one point might've seen Nao as a father figure, but she matured rapidly and then saw Nao as a love interest. I can agree with that, Nao doesn't see her as a woman anyway, so that part is at least consistent, I just hope the relationship wouldn't evolve into a romantic one.

The slave crest is no more than a memento to Naofumi; It's Raphtalias way of saying thank you. Naofumi may not have needed her to keep it, but it's her way of showing her faith. She isn't treated like a slave anymore, she's a slave in name only. It does nothing to detract from their relationship. It's merely there for the sake of symbolism.

I agree.



I always forget that we're talking about an isekai series so talks about stockholm syndrome might not even be valid since the condition might not even exist in that world.

It's entirely possible that at one point Raph was indeed forced to fight when she didn't want to, but after drinking potions that can apparently cure physical and mental illnesses then she has seen the light on how the shield hero is teaching her to stand up for herself, healing her and teaching her to fight, became more mature in her thinking and is 100% genuinely and consciously supporting the shield hero in his fight, while harboring innocent romantic feelings for him.

Yep, I think I can live with that interpretation

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by frodonk

Naofumi didn't choose Raph as his slave because he wanted to save her, he wanted something to train to be his sword. If she died while fighting Naofumi would've returned there and get another slave. She was a tool at the beginning, Naofumi even said that she should be at least worth the silver he paid for her.

I know his original intent. But as soon as he saw the slave children he changed his view on how their relationship should be. It was a momentary lapse in judgement that he made out of sheer frustration and anger.

Out of necessity, he probably would purchase another slave. But don't think for a second that it wouldn't eat away at him. He is always the front-liner in every battle. If she dies, that means he is already dead because that is the degree to which he tries to protect her. She's never been injured, he's been severely wounded multiple times.

Herein lies the difference between shield hero and other shows with slaves in it, (death march and isekai maou being the most recent examples) Naofumi didn't see Raph as a person at first, she was a tool, useful only as child labor.

I disagree. A tool wouldn't be protected at the expense of its user. A tool wouldn't be provided for well beyong the bear essentials. Naofumi plays the act of a villain but his conscience and actions do not match his persona.

"Hey I really bought you as a slave to fight with but I'll treat you real good and stuff so we're even right? Don't worry about the fact that I'll have to use the crest at the beginning to force you to fight, or that I'm doing my best to keep you in great condition so that you can fight with full strength everyday and get a nice return for what I paid for you, you'll love it soon enough anyway."

I mean, that was after the fact that he saved her life and took her from an environment that would be even cruel for an animal. He used the slave seal three times. The third time he even stopped using it because he felt he was asking her to do something beyond her means. He even gave her the opportunity to run away at the expense of his own life. He needed a fighter, and asking her politely when it was fear holding her back is obviously not going to work. It was never implied that Naofumi tried to make her like him. It happened naturally after repeated exposure to his good deeds and treating her well. A person who goes out of their way to save an entire village cannot be considered a bad person by any sense of the word. Raphtalia had a front row seat to the real him. She could see things more clearly than he could.

Raph wasn't kidnapped, but she had no choice but to go with whatever Naofumi wanted because of the seal, even if Naofumi didn't use the seal often there's always the threat that he'd use it if Raph didn't follow his instructions.

Unless you suggest he spends the last bit of his money to purchase and adopt Raphtalia, what is the alternative? To let her rot away in a cage? The relationship was mutually beneficial to the both of them. She wasn't taken from a good environment. She was taken from a horrible environment, treated well, and then expected to fight because Naofumi cannot fight on his own. He never abused the slave seal, he only used it when it was absolutely necessary. He also gave her an ultimatum once his mind became more clear. He wasn't at liberty to adopt her, so if she can't fight he won't be able to take care of her. While he took good care of her, his expression was rarely pleasant. He didn't try to control her with niceties. It was Naofumis actions that resonated with Raphtalia, because he was still very bitter at this point.

If Raph over time and when she matured thought that her life wasn't so bad after all and decided to stick with Naofumi (even going so far as to restore the seal even if it's useless) then it's all well and good, but you'll never shake off the fact that there was a time when she was coerced into doing things that she didn't want, and one will never be sure whether it's a fully conscious decision or if it's tainted with the conditioning created by the seal when she's still a child.

There isn't much to think about, that's not the way the story portrays their relationship. Raphtalia has great adoration and respect for Naofumi because she considers him a hero. She gained some form of romantic feelings for him after she matured into an adult. Just because someone does a few mean things to you it doesn't invalidate all of the good things that they did for you. In this case, the good far outweighs the bad. From Raphtalias perspective he only forced her to overcome her fears, and beyond that he treated her with a love similar to how a father would treat his daughter. He is the reason she is still alive today. And no amount of moral absolutism is going to invalidate that.

Part of my confusion might be because of this. Raph at one point might've seen Nao as a father figure, but she matured rapidly and then saw Nao as a love interest. I can agree with that, Nao doesn't see her as a woman anyway, so that part is at least consistent, I just hope the relationship wouldn't evolve into a romantic one.


I agree.



I always forget that we're talking about an isekai series so talks about stockholm syndrome might not even be valid since the condition might not even exist in that world.

It's entirely possible that at one point Raph was indeed forced to fight when she didn't want to, but after drinking potions that can apparently cure physical and mental illnesses then she has seen the light on how the shield hero is teaching her to stand up for herself, healing her and teaching her to fight, became more mature in her thinking and is 100% genuinely and consciously supporting the shield hero in his fight, while harboring innocent romantic feelings for him.

Yep, I think I can live with that interpretation

If only I read this part first I wouldn't have written anything, but as I already typed it out I'm posting it anyways. It's good that we could come to an agreement. I didn't think it was possible with a touchy subject like this.

Though just a little nitpick. Her "mental Illness" was the night terrors she had from losing her parents. I don't think the medicine cured those. She lost them after she committed herself to killing the dog monster because she didn't want to lose Naofumi. She compared the thought of losing him to losing her parents a second time. She can now better cope with losing her parents because Naofumi is there for her.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by Tactics

If you can consider what happened to Raphtalia is brainwashing, why not say the same to games where you can level up by killing humans? Isn't that the same with promoting violence and murderer? Is it because somewhere I didn't know, murdering people actually good thing?

Armies, police and armed assault victims kill people for practical reasons frequently. There is never a just reason for rape, enslavement and so on. Possibly lying is also unjustifiable according to Kant I think, that's interesting in the context of this series.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Did I ever say human rights in the real world weren't absolute? I believe in the past I'd said that this only works in fiction. And your claim again depends largely on exactly how things play out in a story.

A story which uncritically presents a positive master-slave relationship may not be pro-slavery propaganda, but it is almost certainly Useful Idiocy which achieves the same purpose. My problem is that Raph and Naofumi's relationship is portrayed as non-coercive and positive, as if slavery was not fundamentally coercive and wrong, as if it could be a desirable state someone would or should ever choose, under any circumstances.

Here's an idea. Raph is the heroine destined to save the world, but she can't because she's a slave (this is what slavery does). Her current owner treats her kindly as Naofumi but won't release her. So she lies to the other slaves that her owner raped her, and they lynch him. It works even better because Tanuki are tricksters, maybe they feed him to his wife in a stew (only joking)?

The slaves escape together and save the world, then get recaptured and sentenced to death. A pardon is granted just in time to save all the slaves, except Raph, who resigns herself to being killed for her original sin. That would be a moral work about necessity, with a heroine I could admire (though moreso if she just killed the owner herself). Melville and Turtledove already used bits of it though.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Demi.

If only I read this part first I wouldn't have written anything, but as I already typed it out I'm posting it anyways. It's good that we could come to an agreement. I didn't think it was possible with a touchy subject like this.

It was not like I came here fully convinced that my interpretation was right. I was looking for an alternate explanation and I found it through your post

Though just a little nitpick. Her "mental Illness" was the night terrors she had from losing her parents. I don't think the medicine cured those. She lost them after she committed herself to killing the dog monster because she didn't want to lose Naofumi. She compared the thought of losing him to losing her parents a second time. She can now better cope with losing her parents because Naofumi is there for her.

Looks like Nao helped with Raph's trauma of losing her parents, and was then helped in turn when he was able to taste food again due to Raph's healing hug

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Armies, police and armed assault victims kill people for practical reasons frequently. There is never a just reason for rape, enslavement and so on. Possibly lying is also unjustifiable according to Kant I think, that's interesting in the context of this series.



A story which uncritically presents a positive master-slave relationship may not be pro-slavery propaganda, but it is almost certainly Useful Idiocy which achieves the same purpose. My problem is that Raph and Naofumi's relationship is portrayed as non-coercive and positive, as if slavery was not fundamentally coercive and wrong, as if it could be a desirable state someone would or should ever choose, under any circumstances.

Here's an idea. Raph is the heroine destined to save the world, but she can't because she's a slave (this is what slavery does). Her current owner treats her kindly as Naofumi but won't release her. So she lies to the other slaves that her owner raped her, and they lynch him. It works even better because Tanuki are tricksters, maybe they feed him to his wife in a stew (only joking)?

The slaves escape together and save the world, then get recaptured and sentenced to death. A pardon is granted just in time to save all the slaves, except Raph, who resigns herself to being killed for her original sin. That would be a moral work about necessity, with a heroine I could admire (though moreso if she just killed the owner herself). Melville and Turtledove already used bits of it though.

OK, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I get the serious feeling that you believe a story shouldn't be allowed to contain anything you decide qualifies as a "special" kind of evil unless that aspect ends with an anvilicious moral that shoves down the audience's throat that this is BAD. You're free to feel that way but I completely disagree. Frankly I find those sorts of stories to be painfully boring. They're not so much stories as illustrated lectures and sermons, like far too many Christian movies (I'm a Christian myself mind you, but most of us too realize that a lot of those movies are just lessons with rough demonstration).

I've long felt that a good story doesn't shove moral lessons down the audience's throat, but rather presents the story to you and leaves you to judge what's right and wrong and whether any special circumstances have an impact on the morality of things. Like a man having no choice but to buy a slave or a former slave who decides of her own free will to return to it for some reason, be it trust that in their relationship it'd have no meaning or some sort of concern for the guy's still-fragile mental state or any number of other reasons. This puts the audience in a position to question things. The questions may be obvious, but I still prefer stories that let you answer them to stories that force the answer on me or tell me I'm wrong if I didn't answer a certain way.

[Dharma]

Interesting how no one ever say that having children is fundamentally coercive and wrong.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

<snip>

I've long felt that a good story doesn't shove moral lessons down the audience's throat, but rather presents the story to you and leaves you to judge what's right and wrong and whether any special circumstances have an impact on the morality of things. Like a man having no choice but to buy a slave or a former slave who decides of her own free will to return to it for some reason, be it trust that in their relationship it'd have no meaning or some sort of concern for the guy's still-fragile mental state or any number of other reasons. This puts the audience in a position to question things. The questions may be obvious, but I still prefer stories that let you answer them to stories that force the answer on me or tell me I'm wrong if I didn't answer a certain way.

Now I suppose the bolded is all good if that's what you believe. However, certain countries have history to fall back on with regards to slavery. I find it hard to believe that a slave would willingly go back to slavery. If Naofumi could not trust his "weapon" because he doesn't have a guaranteed hold over her, then "Oh so sad, too bad." for him. I live in an area that has billboard posters extolling how bad a certain forms of modern slavery is. I think this title was released in the wrong decade. The "whether slavery is good or bad" in this debate isn't really socially prudent to entertain imo.

Raph is pretty messed up imo for her to not only want to seal back but to put it on her chest where loads of people are going to look at it. She pretty much sexualized a slave seal imo.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by orion

Raph is pretty messed up imo for her to not only want to seal back but to put it on her chest where loads of people are going to look at it. She pretty much sexualized a slave seal imo.

Has there been any evidence to suggest that the slave seal can be put anywhere else? That's the same place loli Raph had her slave seal, and it's the place that Filo has hers. It appears to be the typical place a slave gets the mark, not a preference to where Raphtalia wanted it. Also Raph doesn't wear revealing clothing so no one will be able to see it.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by orion

Now I suppose the bolded is all good if that's what you believe. However, certain countries have history to fall back on with regards to slavery. I find it hard to believe that a slave would willingly go back to slavery. If Naofumi could not trust his "weapon" because he doesn't have a guaranteed hold over her, then "Oh so sad, too bad." for him. I live in an area that has billboard posters extolling how bad a certain forms of modern slavery is. I think this title was released in the wrong decade. The "whether slavery is good or bad" in this debate isn't really socially prudent to entertain imo.

Frankly I'm insulted by this apparent suggestion that I'm questioning whether slavery is immoral or not. Trust me, as an American I have plenty of knowledge about the horrors of slavery. But as I said before, one thing I find entertaining in fiction is the posing of questions. True, in real life it's hard to believe that a former slave would willingly return to such a position. But that has nothing to do with this story, which is set in a unique world that led to just such a situation. Not to mention I somewhat doubt this is any of the "certain forms of slavery" you mention. Basically, don't think for a second that any of us think slavery is "good".

Raph is pretty messed up imo for her to not only want to seal back but to put it on her chest where loads of people are going to look at it. She pretty much sexualized a slave seal imo.

I don't know if it's ever placed anywhere else actually. Seems like a fairly standard place to put a seal designed to directly impact the person it's applied to, since it's at the core of the body. And a lot of other seals I've seen designed to control a person or transfer sensations have been placed on the chest or midriff. Hardly a "sexualization". Not to mention have you actually watched this show? Have you not seen what Raphtalia wears? Her chest is very well covered, so I don't think ANYONE is going to see it.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by orion

Raph is pretty messed up imo for her to not only want to seal back but to put it on her chest where loads of people are going to look at it. She pretty much sexualized a slave seal imo.

You do realize that she specifically opened her shirt, so he can re-draw the seal, do you?
It's usually tied with a ribbon so no one will see it at all.
So unless she not only opens up that ribbon but also loosens that corset-like part of her tabard, no one is going to see the seal at all.

Also it got placed where it was before it got removed.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Frankly I'm insulted by this apparent suggestion that I'm questioning whether slavery is immoral or not. Trust me, as an American I have plenty of knowledge about the horrors of slavery. But as I said before, one thing I find entertaining in fiction is the posing of questions. True, in real life it's hard to believe that a former slave would willingly return to such a position. But that has nothing to do with this story, which is set in a unique world that led to just such a situation. Not to mention I somewhat doubt this is any of the "certain forms of slavery" you mention. Basically, don't think for a second that any of us think slavery is "good".
<snip>

Well...prob not yet. One would have to assume with female slaves, certain levels of depravity will happen. Raph did say that she was still a virgin.
https://humantraffickinghotline.org/states

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You do realize that she specifically opened her shirt, so he can re-draw the seal, do you?
It's usually tied with a ribbon so no one will see it at all.
So unless she not only opens up that ribbon but also loosens that corset-like part of her tabard, no one is going to see the seal at all.

Also it got placed where it was before it got removed.

It could be placed in other areas, right? Like on an arm, hand, etc. Placing it on the chest is a pretty sexualized place. If you really want to get a slave to do something, what's wrong with the neck? It's pretty direct. You suffocate the slave when he/she doesn't obey.

Spoiler for info from another thread here:

Besides if that seal is really a protectant from being hunted like was stated in another thread here, then people are going to want to verify that the seal is there so she potentially will be undoing her tabard.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by orion

It could be placed in other areas, right? Like on an arm, hand, etc. Placing it on the chest is a pretty sexualized place. If you really want to get a slave to do something, what's wrong with the neck? It's pretty direct. You suffocate the slave when he/she doesn't obey.

Spoiler for info from another thread here:

Besides if that seal is really a protectant from being hunted like was stated in another thread here, then people are going to want to verify that the seal is there so she potentially will be undoing her tabard.

I mean, you kind of ignored the two posters who answered that question. Either way, there is no implication that Raphtalia preferred to have the seal there. So saying that she did it to sexualize the slave seal is really reaching.

Spoiler for further elaboration about that point:

The seal reaches the top part of her breast. Most female bathing suits show that much skin. Also it's not like demi-human hunting is so rampant that any passerby is going to think about enslaving/killing her if she's not someones slave. Myne is who they were the most cautious about given her personality. Naofumi can also be the one to confirm that she is his slave if such a problem does arise.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by orion

Well...prob not yet. One would have to assume with female slaves, certain levels of depravity will happen. Raph did say that she was still a virgin.
https://humantraffickinghotline.org/states

Seriously, have you forgotten yet again that this is a work of FICTION!? There's been absolutely no indication that Naofumi has or will have any sexual interest in her, much less that he'd ever use his currently-unwanted authority as master over her to indulge such interest. If anything, his fury at being accused of rape would make him highly unlikely to pursue such a relationship. Not to mention that this'd be a rare LN if it had the hero enter into even a true romantic relationship quickly. Of the light novels I've read only one or two have men enter into "romantic relationships" before numerous volumes had passed, and in those it's not so much that the guy's in a relationship with them as he's agreed to enter one once he's older or some issues have been resolved (like in Smartphone, where the guy agrees to get engaged once they're all older, since he's 15 and the others are 12, 13 and 14).

I know full well that enslaved women are very often sexually abused. But one needs to recognize the difference between "what often happens in the real world" and "what's likely to happen with this character".

[felix]

Originally Posted by (from another forum)

It's pretty obvious to me

Evil women = make false rape accusations

Good women = subservient slaves to their master

beep boop so simple!

OH! I knew there was something bothering me about this whole setting, but just couldn't put my finger on it.

No wonder the country is a matriarchy. Of course the "evil kingdom" would be that if it's a fantasy centered around hardcore misogyny for trap plot.
The slave seal as the one true bond, the mental breakdown, Naofumi's mentality all click into place now.

I had some faith in the action of the series, but given it's at best just a tone down version of that sort of trash at the core, I've lost all interest now.

Dropped, there's no lack of other things to watch.

[magnuskn]

You might want to add some smileys, since there are always at least one or two people on a forum who are humor impaired.

[BWTraveller]

Seriously that's a disgusting way to misrepresent this series. For starters, there's the issue that the woman truly in charge is apparently an ally; in a sense Mein and Aultcray are screwing her over too. This "evil matriarchy" is only evil currently under the rule of a corrupt king who's acting on his own while his wife's dealing with diplomatic issues.

Additionally, regardless of one's opinion of the slave seal itself I'd hardly call Raphtalia "subservient". She's made it pretty clear that she's her own person.

[magnuskn]

Oh, wait, he was actually serious?

[The Green One]

*facepalms and silently walks away in disgust*

[magnuskn]

Well, that is certainly a way to get out of a discussion one was losing constantly. "Declaring victory" and walking away.

*late edit* Not referring to The Green One here, but to Felix.

[BWTraveller]

Actually, I'd say that rather than "misogynistic" the message the story seems to have about women is that they're just people like the rest of us and therefore you shouldn't just jump to any conclusion. They can be so selfish and cruel that they'd try to ruin a person in the worst ways possible just for a small personal advantage or try to drain an entire community dry for personal gain, or they can be virtuous souls who put their lives on the line every day for the sake of the people and children around them. They can be the kind of person to set you up for the soul purpose of taking advantage of your good faith, or the kind that will stand with you to the end no matter what anyone says because they know and trust you. They can be weak-willed, frightened people who'd act like servants even when free to do as they please or strong, independent individuals whose will can't be cowed even by contracts designed to do just that. And they can change or fail to change. They can grow from a terrified weakling desperate to cling to and please a strong savior into a powerful warrior who can and will stand up to anyone and anything that she deems evil. Or they can simply become more of what they already were. We've already seen enough women and changes among women that I believe claiming the series wants to suggest that independent women are bad or that rape frameups are common or that a good woman is subservient in nature is just ridiculous. It simply tells us not to decide how things are too quickly, as just like men they are capable of anything and can easily surprise you time and again.