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Old 2015-07-16, 14:32   Link #41
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by necrolyte View Post
Actually this is the main reason I started to write this comment in the first place . Its not like I dislike him its just that I dislike how he is so OP (he fought in the colosseum, stopped an admiral and then defeated Burgess without blinking an eye).
It's true that Sabo is much stronger than Burgess, but he didn't stop Fujitora. Fuji said himself that he wasn't trying and that he wanted the pirates to do his dirty work for him. I doubt Sabo could stop Fuji if he was trying.
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Old 2015-07-16, 16:03   Link #42
Talendra
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Originally Posted by necrolyte View Post
^As he said he didn't remember what happened to him before the accident and this is what I mean when I say he don't have a real reason to seek power. The only thing he knew after tenryuubito shot him was that he don't want to go back home not that he desire to change the world. If he remembered I would totally understand but he didn't.
To me, it looks like his desire to overthrow the system was so strong, that it kind of transpired his memory loss. True, he did not remember anything specific, but there was this strong urge inside of him to get away from his very family, and that seems quite connected to his contempt of the general injustice of that place (and in extension, the world). So, while not knowing exactly why, the strong urge to change things and become strong are still there.

Works for me, but I can totally see where you (and others) are coming from and that's a pretty valid standpoint as well.


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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
One thing to remember... Sabo is 2 years older than Luffy. Where do you think Luffy will be in 2 years when he's Sabo's current age? Luffy will probably be king of the pirates and Zoro who is about the same age will be the world's strongest swordsman. Wanna talk over powered youngsters, you need only look at our protagonists
Haha, fair enough Although, that is also kinda the point, these two are our protagonists and are destined to be special even amongst this special generation of theirs.
I also was about to write that Sabo seems quite a bit stronger than Ace (which was 3 yrs older than Luffy, iirc?), but thinking about it, I can't really point to any hard facts to support that... Sabos actions just made the difference between him and Luffy feel far bigger than between Luffy and Ace in Alabasta, but again, that's maybe just me
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Old 2015-07-16, 22:37   Link #43
imza
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Originally Posted by necrolyte View Post
^As he said he didn't remember what happened to him before the accident and this is what I mean when I say he don't have a real reason to seek power. The only thing he knew after tenryuubito shot him was that he don't want to go back home not that he desire to change the world. If he remembered I would totally understand but he didn't.


Actually this is the main reason I started to write this comment in the first place . Its not like I dislike him its just that I dislike how he is so OP (he fought in the colosseum, stopped an admiral and then defeated Burgess without blinking an eye).
Remember, he is also the second in command of the revolutionaries. It would quite pathetic if Sabo could not hold his own or even defeat an admiral. Sure that means he's very powerful but what we should expect.
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Old 2015-07-17, 02:59   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
Superficially, but no, Sabo is not and will never be Ace. They are two different characters.
For me Sabo feels more like a plot device rather than a real character of its own. I just never feel connection to him as to other characters.
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Old 2015-07-17, 09:40   Link #45
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As far as Sabo's placement in the story goes..... I think a lot of people fail to remember that Ace pretty much came at us out of nowhere, too. The difference is just that Ace appeared MUCH earlier in the story than Sabo did. But still, we never had any indication of Luffy having a brother (or ANY family, really) until his reunion with Ace at Alabasta. Heck, Oda even shoved Garp at us from nearly out of the blue! Yeah, we saw him as early as Coby's ministory and had Aokiji's vague comment about owing him a favor or whatever, but what were the odds of anyone predicting the random VA with a dog cap being Luffy's gramps before the big reveal happened? Even Dragon was a total mystery before Garp dropped that bomb on us. With all the mystery surrounding Luffy's family up to now, just how the heck is Sabo that much different!?
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Old 2015-07-17, 10:21   Link #46
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As far as Sabo's placement in the story goes..... I think a lot of people fail to remember that Ace pretty much came at us out of nowhere, too. The difference is just that Ace appeared MUCH earlier in the story than Sabo did. But still, we never had any indication of Luffy having a brother (or ANY family, really) until his reunion with Ace at Alabasta. Heck, Oda even shoved Garp at us from nearly out of the blue! Yeah, we saw him as early as Coby's ministory and had Aokiji's vague comment about owing him a favor or whatever, but what were the odds of anyone predicting the random VA with a dog cap being Luffy's gramps before the big reveal happened? Even Dragon was a total mystery before Garp dropped that bomb on us. With all the mystery surrounding Luffy's family up to now, just how the heck is Sabo that much different!?
Well first off, WHEN these reveals happen does matter. We can't expect the author to show everything right from the very beginning. So Ace popping up early in the story DOES help make a big difference. Its like, if Sabo was always a part of luffy's history then why didn't we hear about him sooner? Why are we being told THIS late in the story? The longer we have to wait for a reveal and the less foreshadowing it has, the more shoehorned it feels

Second, While Garp and Dragon were not revealed to be related to Luffy until later in the story we can atleast be sure they they DID exist. The very fact that they existed from early on in the story suggests that Oda had their reveal all planned out. Heck Dragon being Luffy's father actually gave us an answer to why Dragon saved Luffy early on in the story, and thus closed the book on a minor mystery. Not to mention that Garp is pretty mcuh the spitting image of Luffy's grandfather from the One piece of Romance of dawn one shot that started this entire series. When Garp and Dragon were revealed to us, we could actually look back on the story and know that the reveal was planned from them beginning even if we couldn't have guessed it back then...

With Sabo, not so much... the only hint we have is ace's tatoo and that's assuming the tatoo was originally MEANT to hint at sabo and was not just a quirky art decision way back when. Its very possible that Sabo was planned from the beginning, but it was a very poor choice to hold back on hints and foreshadowing about him for so long since that makes him feel like an after thought that was shoehorned into the story. It would have been much better to give us some kind of hint early on so that his reveal would feel much more natural.
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Old 2015-07-17, 13:03   Link #47
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lol Hmmm, I dont' know where to put this, but, Now that the fight's over and after finishing up on the Island, How are they going to Navigate with Nami not there???? lol Somebody there must know how to navigate, but who? Also that new Eternal Pose thingy with 3 arrows, whats it called again?
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Old 2015-07-17, 18:14   Link #48
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Its like, if Sabo was always a part of luffy's history then why didn't we hear about him sooner? Why are we being told THIS late in the story? The longer we have to wait for a reveal and the less foreshadowing it has, the more shoehorned it feels
Why would Ace and Luffy talk about Sabo when they both thought he was dead?

Speaking of Ace's tattoo actually, I still don't really get the design. If the S is supposed to represent Sabo then why wasn't the tattoo ASL and then changed to ACE? Instead it looks like it was AS and then changed to ACE. The C couldn't have been an L. The E could have been an L but then it would have an extra space.
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Old 2015-07-17, 21:50   Link #49
PixelCreek
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I think it was explained that he had gotten the tattoo as a tribute to Sabo. I don't know why he'd write his name instead of sabo's name.. but I think Oda had made the tattoo with the "S" crossed out just so he could use it as a plot device later on in the story. I mean, he could design the tattoo that way and then decide what he'd want the "S" to stand for later on.
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Old 2015-07-18, 08:23   Link #50
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
Why would Ace and Luffy talk about Sabo when they both thought he was dead?
Are you saying that people never talk about dead loved ones and never reminice about them? Really when Ace and Luffy met up they could have easily slipped in some little bit about Sabo when they were talking and in a way that would feel natural
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Old 2015-07-18, 10:49   Link #51
itachi-san314
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Are you saying that people never talk about dead loved ones and never reminice about them? Really when Ace and Luffy met up they could have easily slipped in some little bit about Sabo when they were talking and in a way that would feel natural
Oh please. Yes people talk about dead loved ones as if that isn't blatantly obvious. Luffy and Ace only got to be together for a short amount of time in Alabasta. The ideal conversation topic during happy reunions isn't usually about who died a long time ago

"Ace!"
"Luffy!"
"Hey, remember Sabo?"
"Yea that was sad. Let's go cry in that corner together."

They also didn't talk about specific Whitebeard pirates like Marco. Does that mean Marco was shoehorned in since Ace didn't mention him? Are you saying people never talk about new friends they've met with their brother? What about reminiscing about Garp or the bandit woman Dadan who raised them?

Ace was being purposely vague with Luffy and the SHs since he was on his own journey with WB and Luffy's on his own journey as a captain and they respect that about each other. Talking about the past doesn't suit that mood or those characters.
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Old 2015-07-18, 12:11   Link #52
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
Oh please. Yes people talk about dead loved ones as if that isn't blatantly obvious. Luffy and Ace only got to be together for a short amount of time in Alabasta. The ideal conversation topic during happy reunions isn't usually about who died a long time ago

"Ace!"
"Luffy!"
"Hey, remember Sabo?"
"Yea that was sad. Let's go cry in that corner together."

They also didn't talk about specific Whitebeard pirates like Marco. Does that mean Marco was shoehorned in since Ace didn't mention him? Are you saying people never talk about new friends they've met with their brother? What about reminiscing about Garp or the bandit woman Dadan who raised them?

Ace was being purposely vague with Luffy and the SHs since he was on his own journey with WB and Luffy's on his own journey as a captain and they respect that about each other. Talking about the past doesn't suit that mood or those characters.
Oh it would have been very easy...

For instance remember how Luffy mentioned to his crew that when he was a kid he could never beat Ace... that bit of dialogue could have easily been changed to "Ya when i was a kid I always got my ass beat by my big brothers". A simple change that feels natural and tells the readers something more

Or we can go another way. Ace didn't have to be so quick to run off; he easily could have spent a few minutes with luffy to celebrate their reunion. What if Ace and Luffy decided to share a drink to celebrate their reunion. They don't even mention sabo... instead we just notice that there was a third cup sitting on the table. The three of them shared the dream of setting out to sea as pirates and they even think of Sabo as being the first of them to set sail even if his journey ended quickly. Kind of makes sense for them to celebrate and remember that...

and y'know what, it actually WOULD make a lot of sense for Ace to talk about his own crew... but that wasn't necessary. We already had a hint at Marco's existence by the mere fact that we knew whitebeard was a pirate captain with multiple divisions under him. Its only Natural that that he'd have crew members and those divisions would have leaders like Ace. We did not know of Marco specifically, but we did know that we would someday meet the rest of whitebeard's crew... Sabo, not so much? Not everyone has brothers much less friends they consider brothers.

I never claimed they needed to be specific; hints and foreshadowing can do wonders. Really there are probably a dozen ways Oda could have worked in somekind of hint to suggest the existence of a third brother that would have felt natural



There are some western cartoons that actually do this kind of writing quite well. Shows like Adventure Time, Steven Universe and Gravity falls work in many tiny little hints that that are meant to gives hints at details about a character's backstory whether or not we even realize it. Something they are subtle and easy to miss, but when their history is made clear you can actually look back on earlier episodes and see how that history was always relevant to the character. Heck, some of the more observant fans even manage to put those tiny pieces together and figure out what the history is before its revealed... It actually helps show how much the writer knows his characters and their history and how far they think ahead.
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Old 2015-07-18, 12:32   Link #53
itachi-san314
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Or we can go another way. Ace didn't have to be so quick to run off; he easily could have spent a few minutes with luffy to celebrate their reunion. What if Ace and Luffy decided to share a drink to celebrate their reunion. They don't even mention sabo... instead we just notice that there was a third cup sitting on the table. The three of them shared the dream of setting out to sea as pirates and they even think of Sabo as being the first of them to set sail even if his journey ended quickly. Kind of makes sense for them to celebrate and remember that...
that would have been a cool scene and it would have led to endless speculation which is a good thing of course. like i said though, these characters are more about moving forward. i'm not saying that oda had sabo planned from the beginning or even back when ace met up with luffy in alabasta. i actually would lean toward him not having invented sabo yet back then. i'm just saying i don't have an issue with sabo's introduction or how he fits in. luffy and ace not talking about him works for me.

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There are some western cartoons that actually do this kind of writing quite well. Shows like Adventure Time, Steven Universe and Gravity falls
Sure although I'm only familiar with adventure time out of those and it does what you're saying wonderfully. i would just point out how long one piece has been going compared to it. if adventure time lasts as long as one piece (which it won't, i think it's already done but i could be wrong) then there would be more story elements that are retconned in as well. it's just a matter of a story lasting as long as one piece. not that much material can be planned perfectly from the get go. we're talking decades worth of material here.
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Old 2015-07-18, 12:42   Link #54
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I also think the audience knowing that Luffy has another brother out there well in advance of Ace's death would have lessened the impact of Ace's death. I personally like it better this way that we didn't know about Sabo from the beginning and it was a nice way to let Luffy grieve over Ace, with flashback of Sabo dying in the past but just enough hints that Sabo may have survived.
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Old 2015-07-20, 07:15   Link #55
khoa1708
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there is a universal answer to everyone's questions and issues:

it's a fictional story that the author wrote... it can't be perfect, there will be plot holes, some stuff won't make sense, etc... since oda probably created some things as time went on...

just enjoy the story for what it is
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Old 2015-07-20, 08:04   Link #56
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I also think the audience knowing that Luffy has another brother out there well in advance of Ace's death would have lessened the impact of Ace's death.
Unless we know from the beginning that their other brother is dead (or at least they assumed he had died), which would drastically elevate Ace's death. Instead, now whenever I think of Ace's death, I remember the awful flashback that needlessly shoehorned in another brother and then pretended he died when everyone and their camels knew he didn't.
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Old 2015-07-20, 14:09   Link #57
PixelCreek
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Guys, think of it this way, you have two brothers, one of them dies.. Having a second brother doesn't make the impact of the first brothers death more significant or less significant. So Luffy has another brother, that doesn't change the fact that he lost Ace right in front of him. It doesn't change any of the emotions he felt. Most of you seem to assume that if Luffy had known Sabo was alive, he'd have an easier time with Aces death?

And from the readers perspective, Aces death was significant because there was no mention of Sabo until afterwards anyways.. Sure, right now it feels like it's lessening the impact of his death for you, but back in the marineford arc when you FIRST read that chapter where Ace died or you first watched that episode, you felt the way Oda had intended you to feel BEFORE he brought in another brother to lighten the mood.
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Old 2015-07-20, 16:01   Link #58
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
Sure although I'm only familiar with adventure time out of those and it does what you're saying wonderfully. i would just point out how long one piece has been going compared to it. if adventure time lasts as long as one piece (which it won't, i think it's already done but i could be wrong) then there would be more story elements that are retconned in as well. it's just a matter of a story lasting as long as one piece. not that much material can be planned perfectly from the get go. we're talking decades worth of material here.
In a case like that, i would recommend that Adventure time refrain from rewriting and adding significant elements to the backstory of the characters. One has to be very careful when adding new history to a character as what you come up with can end up feeling contrived and forced; which is where i feel Sabo fits in). One does not need added elements in the backstory to make good future stories; there are plenty of great stories that can be written going forward. While its true that a writer can't plan everything in advance i do feel like its a good practice in writing to atleast have the backstories of our main characters planned out.



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I also think the audience knowing that Luffy has another brother out there well in advance of Ace's death would have lessened the impact of Ace's death. I personally like it better this way that we didn't know about Sabo from the beginning and it was a nice way to let Luffy grieve over Ace, with flashback of Sabo dying in the past but just enough hints that Sabo may have survived.
I feel the exact opposite; i feel like the reveal of Sabo after Ace's death is what took away some impact of his death... Heck, Sabo himself feels like something of a replacement for Ace; he even has the fire power now. I would have paid Sabo less mind in this regard if i knew about him beforehand

Take for instance the death of going merry. That was one of the saddest moments in the series, and soon after we got the Sunny, but i never thought of the Sunny as "Merry 2.0". Why? Because It wasn't something that came out of nowhere; Even before the going Merry burned, i KNEW that the strawhats would get a new ship, as that's the only way they could be pirates; its a very natural and obvious story progression... Getting a new brother after the previous one died? not so much. THAT felt like it came out of nowhere. Also knowing the strawhats would get a new ship before they lost the merry did NOT lessen the impact.

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Originally Posted by PixelCreek View Post
And from the readers perspective, Aces death was significant because there was no mention of Sabo until afterwards anyways.. Sure, right now it feels like it's lessening the impact of his death for you, but back in the marineford arc when you FIRST read that chapter where Ace died or you first watched that episode, you felt the way Oda had intended you to feel BEFORE he brought in another brother to lighten the mood.
I disagree with that kind of writing... i mean that's not much different than say when Pell did out to be alive after sacrificing himself to save everyone. Sure it felt painful when it happened, but when he turned out to be alive it just felt like a cheap cop out. It was pretty much just a shock moment. All its meant to do is to shock you an effect you for the moment but not meant to have any lingering meaning in the long run. Ace's death starts to feel cheap like that... what good is it to make your audience feel sad over something, when they are just gonna very quickly get over it.

Not to mention it can poison a series if you do it too often. for instance, i personally wasn't really that moved by Ace's death, only because i kept remembering those times when Oda faked us out; Oda used the fake out card so many times i was skeptical over whether or Not he was actually dead and that spoiled the moment... And those fake outs popped up again when oda tried to fake us out over Law's "death" (though in that case we were right to be skeptical)

I feel like the best kind of tragedy's are those that linger in the audience's mind, the kind that has some kind of lasting impact. Those moments can often be some of the best moments in an entire series. You felt sad not only when it first happened, but you feel sad everytime you look back on those moments. It doesn't just matter what the reader feels in the moment, but what they feel afterward... afterall their overall opinion on the work is not base don what they felt in the moment, but based on their reflection of the entire work as a whole.
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Old 2015-07-20, 20:41   Link #59
itachi-san314
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While its true that a writer can't plan everything in advance i do feel like its a good practice in writing to atleast have the backstories of our main characters planned out.
that's fair, but I will agree to disagree. I don't think even a backstory can be completely planned out when dealing with such a long story like One Piece. Sabo might be too big of a retcon, but there's always room for something to enrich a character's past. As long as the retcon does not have any inherent contradictions, like the dreaded edo-tensei and Sarutobi retcons in Naruto for instance, then I am fine with it.

Quote:
Take for instance the death of going merry. That was one of the saddest moments in the series, and soon after we got the Sunny, but i never thought of the Sunny as "Merry 2.0". Why? Because It wasn't something that came out of nowhere
...and they just so happen to land on the home island of two of the greatest shipwrights in history right afterward. Flawless!

Quote:
I feel like the best kind of tragedy's are those that linger in the audience's mind, the kind that has some kind of lasting impact. Those moments can often be some of the best moments in an entire series. You felt sad not only when it first happened, but you feel sad everytime you look back on those moments. It doesn't just matter what the reader feels in the moment, but what they feel afterward... afterall their overall opinion on the work is not base don what they felt in the moment, but based on their reflection of the entire work as a whole.
I wholeheartedly agree. TTGL, Deathnote and FMA come to mind right right away. However if anyone if looking for that type of feeling from One Piece (or Naruto or Bleach or Dragonball for that matter) then they will be disappointed. These series very very rarely kill people off that way.

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Originally Posted by PixelCreek View Post
Guys, think of it this way, you have two brothers, one of them dies.. Having a second brother doesn't make the impact of the first brothers death more significant or less significant.
I completely disagree with that sentiment. I think that if you lose your only sibling, compared to a parent losing their only child it is much more significant than losing one of several siblings or kids. With several, at least you have the others to cry with and to build yourself back up with. Losing your only sibling or kid is much more lonely and depressing.
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Old 2015-07-21, 12:36   Link #60
Slayerx
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I wholeheartedly agree. TTGL, Deathnote and FMA come to mind right right away. However if anyone if looking for that type of feeling from One Piece (or Naruto or Bleach or Dragonball for that matter) then they will be disappointed. These series very very rarely kill people off that way.
Well i wouldn't say that entirely; I feel like One piece has had some success in the past. Like when it came to the backstories; really the Arlong arc is one of my favorite arcs and a major part of that is how well it handled Nami. The tragedy she went through really help shape her entire character. It really moves me every time i hear Nami say "Luffy, help me." Robin was another good one; there are many reason to like water 7 and she was a big one... And then there is the aforementioned Going Merry. All the drama over its fate brought out the best and worst of the characters and her send off was beautiful.

Unfortunately, i haven't really felt that strongly about much since then. Like i said, my own skepticism ended up ruining Ace's death for myself, and the follow up with Sabo didn't help. Brooke was ok... i mean in the anime i liked how his final song played out, but it didn't really move me that much. The history of fishman island was too rushed and lacked that personal touch. Rebecca and Kyros; ya nothing but disappointment looking back on them...

Though i do think Law's backstory was a pretty good success; honestly i think the only thing dragging him down is my problems with the dressrosa arc as a whole; can't think of one without the other... not to mention i feel like it would have been so much more satisfying to see Law get in the final blow himself. If things had played out better this could have been one of the better arcs in the series... Though the final factor would be how the anime handles it. A lot of those great moments i mentioned were made all the better by great direction and work by the anime team; timing, music, and voice acting can make or break an entire scene... we'll see how they handle Law very soon, but the dragging pace of the anime has ruined a lot already...
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