[Manga] Naruto Chapter 607 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Which is exactly what I said earlier , but you disliked the fact that I included Kabuto as well...

hmm not exactly. kabuto and sasori weren't redeemed although kabuto still has a good chance but it would probably suck. what you said earlier was that we are conditioned to expect redemption from most major villains. i said it was pretty much a tie unless you don't think orochimaru, danzo, sound 5, deidara, hidan, kakuzu, kisame and madara are major villains...

Orochimaru and Danzou never had extensive flashbacks. Each has had maybe a few pages in a chapter at best.

i guess it depends on your definition of 'extensive'. we've seen danzo's childhood, membership of team tobirama, involvement in root with orochimaru and kabuto, involvement with hanzo and nagato, corruption of itachi and influence of sarutobi. it's a lot. just because it wasn't all in consecutive chapters doesn't make it quick and simple like kisame's for instance

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

hmm not exactly. kabuto and sasori weren't redeemed

No, you said redeeming qualities (in your last post), nothing about the characters actually attaining redemption. Don't confuse the two (which you and Dengar pointed out to me earlier).

And, once again, I clearly pointed out extensive flashbacks as being the deciding factor for villains with the potential for redemption, and all save Kabuto were redeemed, and since the genjutsu Kabuto is currently under will end if he redeems himself he could eventually be counted on the list as well.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i guess it depends on your definition of 'extensive'. we've seen danzo's childhood, membership of team tobirama

That covered half a chapter, and the other portions weren't his flashback but rather Nagato's and Kabuto's (the same applies to Orochimaru appearing in others flashbacks). They undoubtedly provided information on the character, but there was no real emotional weight for them within others flashbacks.

That being said, "Extensive" is fairly obvious. Gaara, Itachi/Sasuke, Nagato, Kabuto and now Obito have all had multi-chapter specific flashbacks. They are the only villains that have had such extensive construction of specific backstories concerning specific instances in their lives.

[Kafriel]

Nope. Tayuya had pink hair. So, she's a Haruno

...I stand corrected :O

Kisame's back story was shown during the Gai fight. He became disillusioned with the Kiri ninja system where killing your comrades to advance was accepted.

He still didn't have any redeeming qualities, he remained a bloodthirsty assassin to the very end, with but a hint of question towards Itachi's way of thinking.

Kimimaro was given a sob story flashback in the anime. The other sound ninja were textbook plot device villains.

Agreed on Kimimaro, though I hadn't counted him in the sound five (Jiroubo, Kidomaru, Tayuya, Ukon and Sakon). Upon further search, they are apparently the sound four, because Ukon and Sakon are counted as one ._.

[Ero-Senn1n]

I thought that Nagato turned to Tobi after Yahiko died, but i just remembered that he already knew how to summon and use the Gedo Mazo when Yahiko was killed, and that means he had to approach Tobito despite Yahiko rejected his offer. I wonder if that will ever be explained. Also the black rods that came out of the Gedo Mazo are supposed to be part of Madara's plan and after the summoning those connected to Nagato, so it seems Madara planned that Nagato would learn who Madara is and what he has to do in order to resurrect Madara. So i guess the plan was to send Zetsu to Nagato to teach him about Gedo Mazo and maybe use those black rods to mind control Nagato to follow Madara's will. Nagato also used black rods to control the dead corpses, so it makes sense. It seems Madara anticipated that some day Nagato will be forced to use Gedo Mazo, and for that kind of power Nagato's sold his soul to the devil. And it seems they knew the price since Konan warned Nagato to not use it. I guess Kishimoto wants to leave the explanation of this for time when Obito or Madara will finally try to use it.

What doesn't make sense is that Nagato should have known that Tobi is not Madara, but whenever they talk Obito refers to himself as Madara and he's even giving orders as Madara. Whenever Obito is involved in something it seems to be a plot hole Poor Obito is the most abused Uchiha character by Kishimoto, he's being used in so many stupid ways so that heroes could save the world finally

[Dengar]

Why would Nagata know that Tobi isn't Madara? Mysterious strong guy with Sharingan shows up saying he is Madara. Makes sense to me. Unless he was skeptical, but apparently he wasn't.

He gave the Rinnegan to Nagato without him noticing.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Why would Nagata know that Tobi isn't Madara? Mysterious strong guy with Sharingan shows up saying he is Madara.

If the plan is to revive someone and someone who's alive says he is the same person who you should revive then you should notice that someonething is very wrong
The other possibility is that Nagato was not told this part of the plan, but then why would Obito say that Nagato betrayed them, if you don't know the plan/orders you can't really betray anyone.

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Obito has the vat, I know Temari had the fan at one point. The beads are with ginkaku inside the gourd. Not sure where the gourd and the sword are right now.

aaaaah guts, wouldve been a cool way to defeat madara...but can't use the other weapons without the rope except the fan

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

If the plan is to revive someone and someone who's alive says he is the same person who you should revive then you should notice that someonething is very wrong
The other possibility is that Nagato was not told this part of the plan, but then why would Obito say that Nagato betrayed them, if you don't know the plan/orders you can't really betray anyone.

we don't know specifically what nagato knew about the moon's eye plan and madara's resurrection. from everything we've seen, nagato thought obito was madara. it's very possible that obito simply told nagato that his rinnegan should only be used for akatsuki's purposes. he could have even went so far as to say that that specific technique could only be used for akatsuki. given what we know, it doesn't make sense for obito to have divulged any more info than that

[iBeast]

Lol so a deranged Obtio was able to go toe-to-toe, one on one with The Yellow Flash?

C'mon man

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Lol so a deranged Obtio was able to go toe-to-toe, one on one with The Yellow Flash?

C'mon man

I don't know why people are so surprised by that. He has the MS. That instantly makes you one of the most broken characters in the series ... unless you're not an Uchiha. Plus senju DNA, plus Madara as some sort of mentor. It shouldn't be surprising considering the ridiculous imbalances in the world of Naruto.

[itachi-san314]

^also spiral zetsu increased obito's intelligence, mobility and strength. just look how he slaughtered a large team of mist ninja single handed right after the upgrade. plus in comparison to naruto pre rasen-shuriken and sage mode which he achieved in a short amount of time, obito's advancement is not out of bounds

not only all that, but minato was still better and won the fight. it's not like obito trampled him or even barely won

[Amata Sora]

This leaves me to wonder..where is Sasuke-teme and Orochimaru? and what did he mean by "where it all began"?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

we don't know specifically what nagato knew about the moon's eye plan and madara's resurrection. from everything we've seen, nagato thought obito was madara. it's very possible that obito simply told nagato that his rinnegan should only be used for akatsuki's purposes. he could have even went so far as to say that that specific technique could only be used for akatsuki. given what we know, it doesn't make sense for obito to have divulged any more info than that

Well, that can be an explanation, but what i don't like about it is that it makes Nagato look like an idiot. But it's not unprecedented, for example it seems that Sasuke believed the obvious lie that Tobi didn't use the kyuubi to attack konoha. But overall i think the author just made too many equations and left too few variables and now there's no solution without plot holes. So it's better to go on with some epic fight than try to explain an fail And it's still much better than Lost

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Amata Sora

This leaves me to wonder..where is Sasuke-teme and Orochimaru? and what did he mean by "where it all began"?

I'm more curious about the Gedou Mazou. Wasn't it supposed to be in the process of casting the Infinite Tsukiyomi, with Naruto and gang trying to destroy it and Tobi getting in the way? Seems at some point Kishi forgot that, had the statue disappear, and have everyone's focus shift to fighting the bad guy instead of stopping him.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Well, that can be an explanation, but what i don't like about it is that it makes Nagato look like an idiot. But it's not unprecedented, for example it seems that Sasuke believed the obvious lie that Tobi didn't use the kyuubi to attack konoha. But overall i think the author just made too many equations and left too few variables and now there's no solution without plot holes. So it's better to go on with some epic fight than try to explain an fail And it's still much better than Lost

well first off i agree about lost lolz...

but a character being duped isn't a plot hole, it's a reasonable explanation. nagato was a follower. he was just the figurehead leader of akatsuki, but in reality he always followed yahiko and then obito's lead. its easy to manipulate a follower and keep information from them. someone like itachi would be much more difficult to fool, but it does seem that obito managed to convince itachi that he was madara as well, although itachi was much less in on things than nagato of course. but yea, it's not a plot hole. that term keeps getting thrown around, but there are far fewer plot holes in this whole obito storyline than has been made out

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

When did any of Obito's action seem intelligent to you? He has yet to do a single intelligent thing as far as I am concerned...

As much as I laugh those stats, the 3rd Databook has Obito's intelligence stat as a mere 1.
It does explain so very much.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

He still didn't have any redeeming qualities

You completely missed the point of his death and Itachi's words then, Kisame's quality revealed by his death was his absolute loyalty. As often in this show, the intrinsic good qualities of the vilains are the opposite of the way the ninja system twisted them.

Agreed on Kimimaro, though I hadn't counted him in the sound five (Jiroubo, Kidomaru, Tayuya, Ukon and Sakon). Upon further search, they are apparently the sound four, because Ukon and Sakon are counted as one ._.

That's because they weren't full fledged vilains, merely henchmen. They don't need motivation past following their leader.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Why would Nagata know that Tobi isn't Madara? Mysterious strong guy with Sharingan shows up saying he is Madara. Makes sense to me.

Mysterious masked tall guy with a top hat shows up saying he's Abraham Lincoln. Makes sen... Yeah, no.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But it's not unprecedented, for example it seems that Sasuke believed the obvious lie that Tobi didn't use the kyuubi to attack konoha.

It seems Sasuke believed him when he called him a liar?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Mysterious masked tall guy with a top hat shows up saying he's Abraham Lincoln. Makes sen... Yeah, no.

I'd believe it if he were also killing vampires.


Yes, I am making this analogy on purpose. The point is there's little reason to doubt his claim. Didn't the readers believe him as well until the real Madara showed up?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but a character being duped isn't a plot hole, it's a reasonable explanation. nagato was a follower. he was just the figurehead leader of akatsuki, but in reality he always followed yahiko and then obito's lead. its easy to manipulate a follower and keep information from them. someone like itachi would be much more difficult to fool, but it does seem that obito managed to convince itachi that he was madara as well, although itachi was much less in on things than nagato of course. but yea, it's not a plot hole. that term keeps getting thrown around, but there are far fewer plot holes in this whole obito storyline than has been made out

( Just because Nagato is not a leader type he does not have to be an idiot. Sure in this type of manga the personalities of characters are made very simple. I guess we have different levels of tolerance in how stupid a character is made for the sake of the plot )

And then read this itachi-san:

Originally Posted by Hunter

As much as I laugh those stats, the 3rd Databook has Obito's intelligence stat as a mere 1.

A guy who is definitely not smart managed to fool both Nagato and Itachi and the whole akatsuki and all the kages and Sasuke and even the readers. I'd rather call that simply a plot hole instead of trying to find overly convoluted explanations, and then happily forget about it and have fun reading the epic battles in the next chapters

And i think that there's nothing wrong having a plot hole like this, because Kishimoto most likely chose the emotional impact over a more rational choice. The story of this manga wants to appeal to our emotions and not to our rational thinking, so Kishimoto's choice of Obito is probably a good choice. If he chose other characters who are not connected in any way to the main characters that we care about then all this would have less impact. My bet was on Izuna, possibly combined with the will/soul of other dead ninjas, but Izuna is connected only to Madara, and only very indirectly to Sasuke. But Obito is directly connected to Kakashi and to many others of his generation, and to Naruto's father, etc. and most importantly the reader already cares about him since the Kakashi gaiden was a part of the story that most readers loved.

[Phoenix321]

There's still the possibility, that Endo-Madara will flashback to the time when he killed off the Uzumaki Clan, genjutsu forward it to Naruto just as when Naruto is about to be defeated, and AT THAT MOMEMNT, Sasuke will know that he and Naruto are the same and must defeat Endo-Madara.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phoenix321

There's still the possibility, that Endo-Madara will flashback to the time when he killed off the Uzumaki Clan, genjutsu forward it to Naruto just as when Naruto is about to be defeated, and AT THAT MOMEMNT, Sasuke will know that he and Naruto are the same and must defeat Endo-Madara.

That's too many flashbacks. More likely Madara will just mention his various connections to the various unexplained events that Obito opted out on explaining.