Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Indeed Alto regards both as his "wings."

Even if the triangle won't be resolved in the movie, I think the character development and drama in the latter episodes are enough in the greater scheme of things. For me, it's more than enough that a lot of those are leaning towards Sheryl.

The triangle is resolved. Maybe not by your standards but it is resolved. Their love is beyond the simple resolution of marriage you are expecting. All 3 characters love each other. There is no 1st place, no 2nd place. There is no leftover person.
It's 3 people that love each other. Period. End of story.
They might end up single for the rest of their lives... Alto might marry a girl outside of the triangle. Alto might marry another dude and turn out to be gay. Regardless of what closure you expect, whatever happens after that ending is irrelevant because it does not change the fact that those 3 characters love each other.
Stop trying to banalize this story and force Alto to end up with Ranka or Sheryl. This is not Disney, this is anime.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by lars18th

The triangle is resolved. Maybe not by your standards but it is resolved. Their love is beyond the simple resolution of marriage you are expecting. All 3 characters love each other. There is no 1st place, no 2nd place. There is no leftover person.
It's 3 people that love each other. Period. End of story.

You completely misunderstood. I meant that within the context of what others were expecting and the ensuing dialogue that comes after. Perhaps I should've made that clearer in the previous paragraphs.

In the end it was resolved enough for me.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by kujoe

You completely misunderstood. I meant that within the context of what others were expecting and the ensuing dialogue that comes after. Perhaps I should've made that clearer in the previous paragraphs.

In the end it was resolved enough for me.

You should say that alto didn't chose a girl and stayed with the "status quo". Many people didn't get all the things that they wanted. (I wanted Alto dead).

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by lars18th

The triangle is resolved. Maybe not by your standards but it is resolved. Their love is beyond the simple resolution of marriage you are expecting. All 3 characters love each other. There is no 1st place, no 2nd place. There is no leftover person.
It's 3 people that love each other. Period. End of story.
They might end up single for the rest of their lives... Alto might marry a girl outside of the triangle. Alto might marry another dude and turn out to be gay. Regardless of what closure you expect, whatever happens after that ending is irrelevant because it does not change the fact that those 3 characters love each other.
Stop trying to banalize this story and force Alto to end up with Ranka or Sheryl. This is not Disney, this is anime.

<shrug> To each his own. I think Sheryl won, by, y'know, *being with Alto* at the end, while Ranka just came back to be at the start line. Hey, Alto lives with Sheryl. And he promised to be with her to the end. I can totally see Sheryl "releasing" Alto from that promise, but I would not count on Alto taking that offer. He is quite consistant in what he does, after all.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by lars18th

It's a shame you diminished that key scene of the final episode. It was probably the most important scene of the entire saga. It's a "spiritual" scene (which can easily be explained by the nature of communication among the vajira, the fold quartz near Alto's head and the fact that both girls were infected by the V-virus).
They connected for a brief moment that truly explains the love relationship between all three.
That scene clearly shows that those three characters need, love and help each other beyond the point of a simple resolution of setting up a happy pair.
They all love each other, they give each other strength and they only made it this far because of the influence of the other two. If you pay close attention to the whole series, there is very little actual RIVALRY between the two girls. Even though Sheryl has a more aggressive personality, one can tell she had a special affinity with Ranka from the moment they met (maybe related to the v-virus).
Their relationship was never a dispute, it was never an actual fight to see who gets Alto.
It's just not gonna happen. Kawamori may have given you that resolution 25 years ago with DYRL but he is not willing to compromise today in 2008 and I stand by his vision 100%.
Forcing Alto to pick one would take away from the fact that he REALLY DOES love both of them equally. The end was not left "open" or up to you the viewer to decide. The end is clear and whatever happens from that moment on (Alto getting married to either or none of them) takes away from the fact that he does love both girls equally.
The fact that in the very end, Ranka and Sheryl playfully challenge each other in music and in love is proof that they have come to terms with their love being beyond a simple resolution.

This is absolutely ridiculous! Who (besides you) gives a damn about spirituality when it's about reflecting human real life?

Solving a love triangle (whenever there is one) is a primary rule in almost every single anime since the darkness of times in anime history. Overrruling that fondamental aspect without something leaning clearly towards some outcome makes a poor finish. In anime shows, you try to reflect real life to some extent; how can you overrule the fact that life is made of choices which have to be made because you can't satisfy everything?

In my opinion, this ending is a nod to the fact that Hikaru also did equally love both Minmey and Hayase but was forced to pick one due to harsh circunstances.

I am really happy by the way the series has ended. Forcing a situation where Alto, at this point, has to pick and marry one girl would completely banalize this show.

Minmay showed the worst and most defining characteristic of her personality at a crucial moment, strong selfishness. And what did it cost to her hopes for ending with Hikaru because of her selfishness? CAPITAL PUNISHMENT! You know, I love when a character gets punished for flaws impeding mutual happiness because it takes two for a relationship. Ranka displayed a lot of selfishness in the way she handled things with Alto while Sheryl displayed more of her altruistic side towards him, shouldn't that be deserving enough of a punishment on Ranka just like Minmay got nailed 25 years ago?

Not only in SDFM and DYRL, but also in Macross Plus. Myung loved both men, but MUST recognize she loves Isamu more; Guld was more or less "punished" for his overagressive side in that triangle.

As I said, life is made of choices which have to be made because it's IMPOSSIBLE to satisfy everyone.

Originally Posted by kujoe

I don't think it's not the idea itself that draws criticism, but rather this sense of expectations not being met, or being "trolled," in other words. It raises more questions as much it provides closure for others.

When things are clearly leaning on one side, nothing is better than finishing the job. As a normal human being, I see raising more questions than providing answers to existing ones is a stupid act in itself already.

On the other hand, with Macross being Macross, I think that things don't always have to spelled out clearly. We know that Myung loves Isamu more, but all we get is a final shot of her singing with Isamu right after he gets out of his fighter. We don't know what happens to Minmay, and co. at the end, nor do we know how Misa and Hikaru's relationship goes when they leave. Do Max and Millia get reconciled after the events of Macross 7? They seem to be getting back together, but nothing is revealed regarding the future either. And don't even get me started on Basara, Mylene and Gamlin. The story gives the main idea, and that's it.

Why is it so tough to give something quite clear of an answer in this series? At least in other Macross series, we could see something close of how it would end between lovers (except for the Basara-Mylene-Gamlin part). Anyway, all things show how Kawamori is making a fool of himself right now.

[Jazzrat]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I don't think it's not the idea itself that draws criticism, but rather this sense of expectations not being met, or being "trolled," in other words. It raises more questions as much it provides closure for others.

On the other hand, with Macross being Macross, I think that things don't always have to spelled out clearly. We know that Myung loves Isamu more, but all we get is a final shot of her singing with Isamu right after he gets out of his fighter. We don't know what happens to Minmay, and co. at the end, nor do we know how Misa and Hikaru's relationship goes when they leave. Do Max and Millia get reconciled after the events of Macross 7? They seem to be getting back together, but nothing is revealed regarding the future either. And don't even get me started on Basara, Mylene and Gamlin. The story gives the main idea, and that's it.

IMO, SDF wraps up pretty nicely in the end. Hikaru choose Misa over Minmay in the end and humanity moves onto space colonization. Macross Plus's LT was pretty much over with Guld killed off and Myung loving Isamu more than Guld.

Not much LT in M7 though, Basara loves his singing too damn much that Mylene never stood a chance

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by lars18th

Clearly you must not be part of the whopping 70% who rated this series very highly.
I "blame" Shouji Kawamori for being the genius who redefined what is today known as anime thanks to his work on the original Macross 25 years ago.
I also blame him for taking everything to the next level with this awesome series. I haven't seen epic space battles like these in years... and thats in any medium.

Clearly you must not know anything about me because if you did, you wouldn't have generalized me into that minority 30% so easily.

Macross provided strong romantic tension between the leads as well as the included a lot of Mecha goodness. On top that, the side character stories were intriguing. Everything about it from the start was pure win.

But when I watched Ep 25, I couldn't help but feel extremely let down by the rushed dialogue and "wtf" storyline.

To put my disgruntlement into better perspective, it took Ranka a little under 5 minutes to go from "I'm going to go down my own path" in Ep21 back to "Alto-kun" and from deserter to savior. We never got to see what happened to Leon and we never got to hear the return Sheryl and Alto conversation. To make matters even worse, Battle Galaxy went down like a chump and the actual Galaxy Colony ship was MIA. They even went as far as to group Sheryl and Ranka as extremely close friends when throughout the series they were acquaintances at best.

As someone I was talking to simply put it,

"they threw out almost everything from the first 24 eps in 25".

Oh yes, overall I thought Frontier Episodes 1-24 were great. All of that went down the drain because of an extremely lame, piss all, throw everything out Episode 24 ending which left many questions unanswered and raised even more.

That's all.

And I'm just being curious, was this 70% rating poll taken before or after Ep25, source?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

When things are clearly leaning on one side, nothing is better than finishing the job. As a normal human being, I see raising more questions than providing answers to existing ones is a stupid act in itself already.

. . . . .

Why is it so tough to give something quite clear of an answer in this series? At least in other Macross series, we could see something close of how it would end between lovers (except for the Basara-Mylene-Gamlin part). Anyway, all things show how Kawamori is making a fool of himself right now.

Oh, I know how you feel. From one Sheryl fan to another, let's put it this way:

It can't be helped if Kawamori chose to "please all fans" or chose to end things this way. But even then, I'm already satisfied with the direction regarding Sheryl and Alto. Even Ranka's challenge to Sheryl is an implicit realization of Sheryl's feelings and how "ahead" she already is, hence her determination to not lose.

I guess I'm looking at this alongside my experiences with the previous series. There is always something lacking in each of their endings—more so in this and Macross 7 maybe depending on what you were expecting—but it's still Macross after all. Perhaps episode 25 doesn't completely seal the deal so to speak, but with all things considered (i.e., episode 24 and then some) it's enough for me. You can't doubt those developments—unfinished as they seem to be.

At the risk of posting blogspam... Crusader says it better in his blog, even though he wears his shipping loyalties on his sleeve too much. The basic idea is what I wanted to say, more or less. (side note: Where did he get that Macross 7 pic?!)

I enjoyed it at least, and I can only hope for even better in the upcoming movie.

[nutype]

troll ending, im glad this anime was too stupid for me NOT to take seriously. it's pretty funny how the majority gave this ep a PERFECT score, that's just proof this site is filled with worshippers.

It was hella dumb for sheryl's medical condition to suddenly improve like that (i know ranka removes an infection...from a far far far away distancef)...clearly a deux ex. Whatever....it's dumb of anyone to take an anime where singing karaoke can help you win galactic wars anyways.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kujoe

At the risk of posting blogspam... Crusader says it better in his blog, even though he wears his shipping loyalties on his sleeve too much. The basic idea is what I wanted to say, more or less. (side note: Where did he get that Macross 7 pic?!)

Hey, wow. Thanks, I hadn´t known that Crusader put up a "final thoughts" post. Succint as always, he is.

Nutype: What, you didn´t see that miracle cure coming a mile away? I thought it pretty clear, as soon as they showed that what Sheryl had, was more or less similar to the crystal bugs in Rankas stomach.

[BetoJR]

Oh, we were needing new trolls, weren't we?

[forgottendiary]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Oh, we were needing new trolls, weren't we?

We need new posts anyways

[golthin]

Originally Posted by nutype

Whatever....it's dumb of anyone to take an anime where singing karaoke can help you win galactic wars anyways.

I like macross a lot, but the singing have always annoyed me. I am realistic enough to know that if there is not singing it can't be macross, so i have learned to live with it. I am watching macross 7 now and everytime Basara sings and they show him with that stupid grin of him while singing, i want to take my eyes out. i think i am a masochist because I can't wait for the next episode.

[BetoJR]

Then all the singing can't be bothering you that much, golthin.

[Jazzrat]

Originally Posted by golthin

I like macross a lot, but the singing have always annoyed me. I am realistic enough to know that if there is not singing it can't be macross, so i have learned to live with it. I am watching macross 7 now and everytime Basara sings and they show him with that stupid grin of him while singing, i want to take my eyes out. i think i am a masochist because I can't wait for the next episode.

Lol, dont worry... i never got used to Basara's singing either but still manage to somehow finish the damn series since Max & Milia is in it.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Then all the singing can't be bothering you that much, golthin.

you always have to disagree with me. It is like a reflex for you. Isn't there ever something in an anime that annoys you but all the other good points of the anime make it worthwhile to watch it?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by golthin

you always have to disagree with me. It is like a reflex for you.

Like you blaming everything on Sheryl shippers, eh?

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by golthin

you always have to disagree with me. It is like a reflex for you. Isn't there ever something in an anime that annoys you but all the other good points of the anime make it worthwhile to watch it?

SDFM Kaifun is the biggest prick I've ever seen in any anime I've watched. Words cannot describe how badly I wanted to punch his face in as soon as he started spouting his anti-military bullshit. I guess it's because I absolutely detest people who are blind idealists.

On the other hand, the singing bits in Macross never really struck me as annoying since they managed to integrate the singing so well into the franchise.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by mechabao

SDFM had Kaifun is the biggest prick I've ever seen in any anime I've watched. Words cannot describe how badly I wanted to punch his face in as soon as he started spouting his anti-military bullshit. I guess it's because I absolutely detest people who are blind idealists.

On the other hand, the singing bits in Macross never really struck me as annoying since they managed to integrate the singing so well into the franchise.

Kaifun is based on Kawamori.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by golthin

you always have to disagree with me. It is like a reflex for you. Isn't there ever something in an anime that annoys you but all the other good points of the anime make it worthwhile to watch it?

Dude, don't take it personally. PLEASE.

When something in anything I watch or read annoys me, I tend to stop watching or reading said offending source. There's just way too many more worthwhile things I could be doing with my time, other than spending it with things that, like you put it, make me "want to take my eyes out". But hey, maybe that's just me.

And that's what I was responding to, not you personally. So, again, chill.