Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

On another note, I still stand by my theory that Madoka is going to become a magical girl without contracting with Kyubey.

Unless properly developed, which looks more and more unlikely as the series goes on, then it becomes an asspull. If there was a method for girls to become MG's without Kyube, then it would have happened by now.

You may not have watched Avatar: The Last Airbender (the series), but many people called Aang's action at the end to be an asspull. He wanted to defeat the Fire Lord without killing, and found his perfect method at the end that wasn't foreshadowed very well.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Unless properly developed, which looks more and more unlikely as the series goes on, then it becomes an asspull. If there was a method for girls to become MG's without Kyube, then it would have happened by now.

First, I'm not talking about a method for any girl to become MG without Kyubey's contract. I'm talking specifically about Madoka. That's she's special can't be argued. We just don't know how.

And YES, I do know that if Madoka becomes MG without contracting, the possibility of that to happen should be foreshadowed way before it happens. I know!!!! And I expect anyone reading this to be able to know that too. That's way I didn't think I needed to say it.

[Malkuth]

Speculation and wild theories aside, Homura has become a Mahou Shoujo without entering a contract with Qべ, that was mentioned when he was talking with Kyouko.

Also Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from entering a contract with Qべ, I don't think see said at any point point that she does not wish Madoka to become a Mahou Shoujo in general, through other means perhaphs ... not 100% sure on this one though

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Speculation and wild theories aside, Homura has become a Mahou Shoujo without entering a contract with Qべ, that was mentioned when he was talking with Kyouko.

He doesn't say that. He say that you could say Homura did contract with him, but you also could say she didn't.

In other words, he's not sure (or he's lying).

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

He doesn't say that. He say that you could say Homura did contract with him, but you also could say she didn't.

In other words, he's not sure (or he's lying).

You made me rewatch the scene, he said that "she kind of did, but also didn't" and continues by saying that "she is different, irregular" ... not sure about the translation, though. In any case, whether you take that or the subbers (not all that different) he clearly implies that Homura did not had a standard contract with him. I focus on the negation (did not), while you on the modifier (standard contract) ... in the end it's not so different.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

In any case, whether you take that or the subbers (not all that different) he clearly implies that Homura did not had a standard contract with him

"Maybe she did,maybe she didn't" , which is the translation I have, seems to imply that a lot less though.

[Funkatron]

here is a theory:

In the contract scene with Sayaka, QB basically rips a chunk of her heart/soul/s[irit and gives it a physical form. We can probably deduce that magical girls aren't given powers, their powers are just unlocked from their heart. Maybe Madoka might be able to release her own Soul Gem without the help of QB, if she is Nanoha 2.0

[NaweG]

For all the discussion of Sayaka "buying the farm", I keep thinking back to her comment in the elevator that if only she had known the cost - which implies that we are getting told the story from a future viewpoint, and Sayaka is around to tell it.

Right?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by NaweG

For all the discussion of Sayaka "buying the farm", I keep thinking back to her comment in the elevator that if only she had known the cost - which implies that we are getting told the story from a future viewpoint, and Sayaka is around to tell it.

Right?

Good point.

To me, this could very well mean she won't die... or if she does, she gets revived later on.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Mentar

So, assuming that Homura indeed is the cat - was she a cat before? If so, how comes she could make a wish? If she's going to become a cat later - how comes?

I feel we don't have enough pieces to really make an educated guess yet.

I am suprise to see that so many people have problem with "A cat is allowed to make a wish and sign MG contract". Poor kitty, why is human so discriminate Aren't various anime have various kind of animal become various kind of thing, esper, ghost buster, ninja, blah blah blah? and when they do, aren't they usually portraited as more powerful than their human counterpart ? Yep, we still don't have concrete evidence for either side of argument yet. but my default value is still, yes, cat is allowed.

I am not sure if the question of "Is cat soul work the same way with human soul ?" is something related to Christian's belief ? To me, coming from Buddist country which believe in reincarnation, that is not a question at all. All soul work the same. It is just the matter of what you born as in this life. You live, you die, go to hell, pay for your sin, reborn as something else depend on your karma, rinse and repeat. Hope I didn't wander too far off topic here lol

Putting religious believes aside, I can understand why QB won't approach random street cat over random pedestrian on the street. A cat is less likely to have any strong wish that will bound it to fight dangerous monster for life. It would rather chase a mouse or fight with other cats instead But in Homura's case, she clearly have one. Being a cat or human shouldn't be a problem at all.

[erneiz_hyde]

Somehow crossed my mind, and I haven't read too much on the past discussions so I'm just gonna dump it here.

If an MG's wish becomes her innate ability, then Homura's ability to teleport might hint towards space-time altering wish (assuming Physics Law apply here). Also, this might also mean Mami might still have some chance to return sometime later if her innate ability is auto-life like in FF (because of her wish "not to die") or perhaps even reincarnation.

Also, since Sayaka's weapon is swords, and she can recreate seemingly unlimited number of them, Sayaka might just be another Unlimited Blade Works style "Archer"

[Seihai]

Episode 6 poem "Hey Diddle Diddle": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle

The anime version is basically the same but Madoka did a (small) tense mistake at the last line. No one's perfect I guess, whether Madoka nor the ones who animated that screen.
Anime version:

Hey diddle diddle,
The cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon;
The little dog laughed
To see such sport
And the dish run away with the spoon.

Wiki's more modern version which it is based on:

Hey diddle diddle,
The cat played the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon,
The little dog laughed to see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the Spoon.

Just guessing:
Hey diddle diddle = it's nonsense / unbelievable things addressing Kyouko
Cat that played fiddle (violin) = Kamijo
Cow which jumped over the moon = Homura
Little dog = Kyubei
Dish (prey / feast) = Madoka
^ that ran away with the spoon = Soul Gem

So what about Sayaka? Well, she is basically in the middle of the "unbelievable things".

Guess #2

Since the anime is "The cat and the fiddle" it could be that Sayaka is the cat and the fiddle is representative for Kamijo.

[Seihai]

Spoiler for Homura's time:

I assume Homura used Kyubei to reverse time and use the wish to change it back to a certain date. That explains her time manipulation, which is very much like Marylin from The Law of Ueki who could turn 1 second into 10 seconds for her own use. In Homura's case, it's less than 10 seconds but since as a MG your physical abilities are upgraded a lot it was possible to run after the vehicle and technically have about x5 slow-mow. Which still kills your stamina of course, it's on a highway. However, changing time gives you a second chance at things you experienced back then, but only a 'first' chance to put the time to good use and gather info you didn't know before.

Homura only vaguely could tell Kyubei's spot and movements in episode 1, that's why she barely failed to kill him. She knew Mami would die again, that's why this time, since Homura knows Mami isn't capable of defeating Charlotte, she wanted to do it. She didn't expect to get bound by Mami, that's a 'first new' experience she never made in the past, because back then she wasn't an MG yet. (and I don't believe in the Homura = cat theory, yet) Since her personality is rather restrained (or she got restrained after experiencing traumatizing events which made her decide for a wish), she is naive enough to 'only' tell Mami that this witch is different from before. She knew how to defeat Charlotte specifically, but she thought that warning was enough for Mami to be more cautious this time. Wrong, either way because of her little private time with Madoka Mami's naivity still reaches maximum and her head is still food for thought.

Homura knows about Kyoko. So in the past that was changed, these things already happened (I'm assuming that homura had a triple friendship with Sayaka and Madoka so she was there to see for herself):
Madoka met Mami (probably later than earlier because Kyubei who was with Mami wasn't chased back then)
Mami died
Madoka could have turned into MG by this time, or Sayaka, or both.
Kyoko appeared.
Fights occur, at the very least until the scene Sayaka almost died by Kyoko's hands, Madoka must've been an MG already or Sayaka would be no more.
At least one more week since Kyoko's ep 6 appearances went by as she knew a witch would appear by then. (Mami as a witch?)

Homura knows Kyoko is a hard personality to deal with, so just in case she followed her this time to make sure she won't do stupid things. And she's right, Kyoko attempts to kill Sayaka again. The only thing is, Madoka develops different from before, not how Homura expected it. Back then at that time, Madoka was probably already an MG going "I need to be useful, I'll do what I can" but this time she is going "I need to be useful, I can't do much so I will try do something anyway". That leads to the "the dish ran away with the spoon" situation. And it's natural for Homura to be very surprised and hasty. Though how she knew about the 100 meter limit is questionable.

Btw. those bombs can also be explained by her time manipulation. After all, they are time bombs with timers. So the bombs and her time freezing is related to her wish, and her bow+shield combo might be due to her personality (or something different). It's the same for Sayaka. Her wish gave her greater regenerating abilities, and her fastforward attitude might've given her the katana as a result.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Spoiler for Homura's time:

I assume Homura used Kyubei to reverse time and use the wish to change it back to a certain date. That explains her time manipulation, which is very much like Marylin from The Law of Ueki who could turn 1 second into 10 seconds for her own use. In Homura's case, it's less than 10 seconds but since as a MG your physical abilities are upgraded a lot it was possible to run after the vehicle and technically have about x5 slow-mow. Which still kills your stamina of course, it's on a highway. However, changing time gives you a second chance at things you experienced back then, but only a 'first' chance to put the time to good use and gather info you didn't know before.

Homura only vaguely could tell Kyubei's spot and movements in episode 1, that's why she barely failed to kill him. She knew Mami would die again, that's why this time, since Homura knows Mami isn't capable of defeating Charlotte, she wanted to do it. She didn't expect to get bound by Mami, that's a 'first new' experience she never made in the past, because back then she wasn't an MG yet. (and I don't believe in the Homura = cat theory, yet) Since her personality is rather restrained (or she got restrained after experiencing traumatizing events which made her decide for a wish), she is naive enough to 'only' tell Mami that this witch is different from before. She knew how to defeat Charlotte specifically, but she thought that warning was enough for Mami to be more cautious this time. Wrong, either way because of her little private time with Madoka Mami's naivity still reaches maximum and her head is still food for thought.

Homura knows about Kyoko. So in the past that was changed, these things already happened (I'm assuming that homura had a triple friendship with Sayaka and Madoka so she was there to see for herself):
Madoka met Mami (probably later than earlier because Kyubei who was with Mami wasn't chased back then)
Mami died
Madoka could have turned into MG by this time, or Sayaka, or both.
Kyoko appeared.
Fights occur, at the very least until the scene Sayaka almost died by Kyoko's hands, Madoka must've been an MG already or Sayaka would be no more.
At least one more week since Kyoko's ep 6 appearances went by as she knew a witch would appear by then. (Mami as a witch?)

Homura knows Kyoko is a hard personality to deal with, so just in case she followed her this time to make sure she won't do stupid things. And she's right, Kyoko attempts to kill Sayaka again. The only thing is, Madoka develops different from before, not how Homura expected it. Back then at that time, Madoka was probably already an MG going "I need to be useful, I'll do what I can" but this time she is going "I need to be useful, I can't do much so I will try do something anyway". That leads to the "the dish ran away with the spoon" situation. And it's natural for Homura to be very surprised and hasty. Though how she knew about the 100 meter limit is questionable.

Btw. those bombs can also be explained by her time manipulation. After all, they are time bombs with timers. So the bombs and her time freezing is related to her wish, and her bow+shield combo might be due to her personality (or something different). It's the same for Sayaka. Her wish gave her greater regenerating abilities, and her fastforward attitude might've given her the katana as a result.

IMO it's short range teleporting. With cool down time, say, of 5 second. That's why she keeps running while "jumping" every few seconds.

[Seihai]

Yeah, that's possible, too. Then it's not direct time manipulation, I would still call it indirect and wish related though. As it's shortening time per seconds you would normally move. Though I stick to the time thing because last episode she was walking while the water drops were still in falling proccess, I think. (which might just be part of the animation which is why the teleporting thing is just as possible)

[Dark Wing]

Well Kyuube was seen "eating?" a Grief Seed this episode so dose that mean my food chain theory just might hold some weight after all?

Also now I have to wonder is Kyuube really the only one of his kind? because there has to be more contractors out there eating all the Grief Seed.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Well Kyuube was seen "eating?" a Grief Seed this episode so dose that mean my food chain theory just might hold some weight after all?

It's possible. In all honesty, we don't know what he's doing with them, just that he took it from Sayaka because continuing to use that one would pose some kind of risk.

I'd like to see some other translations of that scene to get a better idea of what was said.

Also now I have to wonder is Kyuube really the only one of his kind? because there has to be more contractors out there eating all the Grief Seed.

That has been bugging me, too. I'm down to a few guesses:

#1. What we see is Kyube is really just a puppet; the real one is controlling other Kyube's, contracting with other MG's, and using them to funnel grief seeds back to himself.

#2. There really isn't that many MG's, and the witch problem is confined to a small area of Japan. Kyube can pop all over the place as needed, showing up when he detects that a seed has been used enough to pose a bit of a danger.

[panzerfan]

Upon reviewing episode 6, I noted Junko echoing Goethe's own truth in Faust, where an individual that strives to do what is right will not achieve just that; men stumble and frown while holding on their self-evident truths. Faust had Mephistopheles to spoil his best of intentions for him in realization of care, and ultimately humility, which gave excuse for his salvation in the last act of the second part of the drama after all.

Perhaps the worst issue at the moment lies in the lack of understanding that Madoka has in attempting to follow the letter of the suggestion to commit wrong. Unlike Mephistopheles, who commits calculated actions to the best of his judgments, Madoka has no utilized no such mental acumen.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Perhaps the worst issue at the moment lies in the lack of understanding that Madoka has in attempting to follow the letter of the suggestion to commit wrong.

Her mother is just using some kinda reverse psychology. Madoka says Sayaka did nothing wrong, yet she's unhappy (and getting worst). The point is, that Madoka lacks the understanding to realize that, if Sayaka isn't happy, maybe what she's doing isn't actually right....

But Madoka can't possible understand that, so her mother go the other way around. If Sayaka is unhappy even though she's doing "the right thing", why don't you do the opposite (something wrong)? she said. It just means that Madoka should confront Sayaka, even if she ends up as the bad guy for opposing her.

EDIT: and she did exactly that, she went a confronted Sayaka, and it backfired on her... BUT, it was the right thing to do, otherwise she would have never known about these dark secrets of the magical girl business. So it was a key revelation prompted by her actions, probably the very first time she fulfilled her role as protagonist (and it was thanks to her mother ^__^).

[Sekirei07]

Did QB raise a flag for Mami to be revived?

He said it doesn't matter if your body bleeds out, crushed, dies, etc. So long as you have magic you can recover, provided your Soul Gem is intact. Was Mami's Soul Gem destroyed? If not than couldn't they tech revive her if they charge her Soul Gem?