Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Caithsith]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Except how do you get G-bombs? You got to launch special operations (involving orbital drops) to assault the hives with TSF's in order to acquire the material to build the G-bombs...except you could have loaded those drop pods with 100 megaton Tsar bombs. (another possibility would be kamikaze TSF's loaded with multi megaton warheads that fought through the hive tunnels, then detonated).

IIRC, every special operations meant to take over hives always ended up in failures. The only successful attempt before Alternative IV is Yokohama base by means of G-bombs. All G element used in making G-bombs are acquired from Canada hive, and considering Alternative V plan, i think America has enough G elements to make lots of G bombs AND still able to develop Moorcock-lechte drive.

Even if there are thousands of surviving BETA, as long as they don't have a hive they won't be able to produce any of the Laser classes. And a few thousand BETA survivors could probably be moped up by TSR equipped with tactical nukes.

Don't forget ,those thousands BETA are already dying but almost succeed in taking over Yokohama base EVEN when we gained air superiority.

Except don't the BETA strip down everything around their hives into uninhabitable wastelands? And even if there was some good land left around the hives, it's not like humans would be able to use it with the nearbye hive anyway. And Tsar bombs don't sound like they have NEARLY as many side effects as G-bombs do.

True, but it's not like BETA themselves are able to absorb nutrients directly from soil, so even if the land may seem barren it could still be cultivated. G bombs are quite efficient and cost-effective because it can deployed by itself without support from anti-laser missile (CMIIW).

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Hmm i see. So hopefully he won't crush the controls in the TSF if he pilots one. Of course, the enhanced endoskeletal musculature would allow for more high G maneuvers, so he would not need a reinforced suit. Would be interesting to see him go Tohofuhai against TSFs and BETA... then again, we see enough of that in AyumayuAlt.

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

Sylvio only has his right hand/forearm. Both his feet/calf plus his eyes and some minor brain implants added to him. I don't see how that would affect his resistance to high G that greatly.

Originally Posted by grevierr

Oh... I thought they would enhance his internal skeleton and musculature around those parts as well. If not, the stress of the parts on the rest of the body would be enough to tear them off if they have no support. If not nevermind, its kinda a joke story anyway, though i'm disapppointed.

sorry to bring back a old topic. But having recently gone through resurrection again on a whim. I just noticed that you are correct. Sylvio does have his most of his major bone structure and joints replaced with augmentations. Also his Heart and lungs have been partially replaced too. Most likely giving him his super human endurance.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

sorry to bring back a old topic. But having recently gone through resurrection again on a whim. I just noticed that you are correct. Sylvio does have his most of his major bone structure and joints replaced with augmentations. Also his Heart and lungs have been partially replaced too. Most likely giving him his super human endurance.

Wow, cool, thanks for checking. I am going to play it once I'm done with Adoration. Good to hear my expectations confirmed. The rest of the series technology was too well written to have such a glaring gap in logic.

Bones and joints reinforced to keep up with the stress, Heart and lungs with increased capacity to provide increased blood and oxygen and ATP supply to the heavy duty parts. Muscles with extra striations to give higher flex responses. Should also have an upgraded endocrine system to provide the various hormones and chemicals balances in the body.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Alright, because I'm not in the mood to put my head on the chopping block again, and I do not acknowledge spoilers, let's go with some more geopolitics and the like:

Soviet Union, or GO BETA GO, GET THOSE COMMIE SCUM!!!:


What might not be entirely clear from anime, is that Soviet Union is hardly a super-power it used to be. Almost all of its territory was lost or scorched in an (unsuccessful) attempt to slow the BETA down with use of WMDs. Most of its population (the ethnically Russian, at any rate) live in the half of Alaska that has been leased to them by the USA.

In fact, American had been more generous then we'd assume. American interests have actually been helping Soviet TSF industries for a long time. MiG-21 was basically a reconfigured F-4R (Phantom's cold weather export version), and F-14s manufacturer had a hand in designing the whole Su-27 line. In fact, some people consider the Su-27 as an extension of F-14 development. It does help that Soviets generally ripped off whichever design they could get their hands on; MiG-23 was suspiciously alike to F-5, and MiG-25 could even carry Phoenix missiles without any adjustment to frame or fire-control system.

Of course, if you look at Muv-Luv Earth map, you can see that Soviet Union is smack-dab in between BETA and Murrica mainland. In fact, if BETA use any logic at all, then if they ever invaded America from Eurasia, they would make use of Bering straits...which are now wholly controlled by the USSR. In fact, it controls entire northern coastline of Alaska.

So, it's pretty obvious that they being used for a meat shield. So Sandek's plotting is not surprising in that they're probably looking for a way to get rid of U.S' supervision.

I'm curious though about how far they're willing to go, or rather, how far will America let them go.

The whole Kamchatka arc shows that Soviets are fairly willing to kill their own people and it wouldn't be the first time someone showed the U.N the middle finger. But what if Yuuya did recover the Type-99 cannon? Would Sandek go as far as to sick Scarlet Twins on him?

Getting Yuuya killed by Russians would make for a *very* good spin story for the CIA...or for the matter, getting any U.N or American pilot killed in a spar between Soviet forces. "The bastards are killing our boys and girls and stealing our tech!" would be a very good excuse for U.S to put out Soviet Union out of the game once and for all. Type-94 blog makes a reference that no-one even investigated the whole incident with Tarisa.

Spoiler for Warning for Langley's master plan for Alaska. Contains information regarding certain section of Total Eclipse Novel, read at your own risk:

It also puts an interesting spin on the entire hydrogen bomb arsenal being buried under Yukon. Total Eclipse says that this was done as a final defense against BETA, as the bombs are rigged to explode upon detecting BETA signatures. But could it also be a part of global U.S strategy? Getting rid off the BETA and Russians at the same time seems obvious, but it might also be U.S trying to spin the blame on someone else. i.e, once the bombs do go off, who would tell that those weren't Russian bombs?

To end, this raises an interesting question: Just how much "independent" are other power blocks? If USSR of all people is being used this way, then what is the true situation of even smaller people like the UFC? It also makes one wonder if the U.N is a truly "international" organization.

It does also put the Japanese ultra-paranoic attitude towards the U.S in new light.


On a completely unrelated topic, I wonder just how much would Soviet combat doctrine change due to the fall of motherland. I mean, they no longer have the industries or manpower to back up their conventional tactics.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

To end, this raises an interesting question: Just how much "independent" are other power blocks? If USSR of all people is being used this way, then what is the true situation of even smaller people like the UFC? It also makes one wonder if the U.N is a truly "international" organization.

It does also put the Japanese ultra-paranoic attitude towards the U.S in new light.


On a completely unrelated topic, I wonder just how much would Soviet combat doctrine change due to the fall of motherland. I mean, they no longer have the industries or manpower to back up their conventional tactics.

I think the most simple way of putting the U.N. organization is to use the cake example which actually is not that simple at all. Please bear with me in this example.

Everyone wants a slice of the cake, which is getting rid of the BETA, and getting G-elements out of them.

To get good cake, it needs an bakery. Now every country knows that to bake a cake takes the work of everyone helping each other, or cake wont happen.

So they all send bakers to form the bakery to make the cake. That bakery is the U.N.

While the bakers work individually on their part of the cake, the have to work together in the bakery to make the best cake, so they exchange ideas and help each other at times.

However, the amount of effort that the baker puts in determines how much of the cake that they get to eat, so they each do their best, at the same time seeing if there is anyway to stop or reduce the amount of effort, or worth, that the other bakers put in their parts.

Of course, they would not want to totally spoil the effort of any baker, since that would destroy the whole cake.

At the same time, the bakers will also report back to their own countries, which are supplying the raw materials, and exchange information with them.

So they observe and plot, seeing how to make the best cake, and how to get the biggest slice for themselves, while keeping an eye on the other bakers to stop them from interfering.

So while the U.N. is an international organization, every member and representative is thinking of their country or their goals first. They may help each other on the surface, but only if there is worth to them.

And as for the America / Japan thing

Spoiler for Operation Lucifer:

The US forcefully dropped two G-bombs onto Japan at the first battle of Yokohama. The Japanese never forgave them for that, and the political ramifications that occurred after. See the wikia link for more details http://muvluv.wikia.com/wiki/Siege_of_Hive_22

And the Russians probably build their industry back in the Alaskan plains. Don't forget how big those U.N. bases are, so its highly possible for them to build manufactories or Heavy Factory in Command and Conquer style. And with all the refugees running around, its relatively easy to conscript replacements for the front lines, though not enough for the mass assaults they are fond of.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

It makes sense indeed...just like our own U.N

But then, why bother with the U.N army at all? Maybe its just me, but they didn't strike me as the kind of under-equipped pity army that actual Peacekeepers are.

And creating U.N army seems a bit risky. From bakery analogy, what if the bakery owner starts getting his own ideas?

Sure, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a good deal of its military wouldn't defect if say, Security Council told them to land of White House's lawn, but there's the possibility of some clever U.N or otherwise anti-national commander rallying all the displaced exiles under his cause. And given that most of American army is not composed of Americans themselves...

Or, the U.N was altered before the grimdark really set in, and major powers weren't contemplating on how to get everyone else killed by the BETA.


Fair enough for the Soviet Industry part, but where would they take their resources from? It's not like there's a complete shortage, but they can't exactly tap the entire wealth of Siberia either.

Plus, I doubt the pool of refugees from which Russians can recruit is very large. Sure, people from former SSRs don't get a choice, but people from Poland or Easter Germans would rather run away to Germany or England to begin with.

...But then, Soviets have the technology to mass-clone enough people for whole battalion (hence Alternative III). One has to wonder just why they haven't continued to do so. Judging by Cryska and Inia, the ESPer pilots are quite effective as well.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

It makes sense indeed...just like our own U.N

But then, why bother with the U.N army at all? Maybe its just me, but they didn't strike me as the kind of under-equipped pity army that actual Peacekeepers are.

And creating U.N army seems a bit risky. From bakery analogy, what if the bakery owner starts getting his own ideas?

Sure, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a good deal of its military wouldn't defect if say, Security Council told them to land of White House's lawn, but there's the possibility of some clever U.N or otherwise anti-national commander rallying all the displaced exiles under his cause. And given that most of American army is not composed of Americans themselves...

Or, the U.N was altered before the grimdark really set in, and major powers weren't contemplating on how to get everyone else killed by the BETA.


Fair enough for the Soviet Industry part, but where would they take their resources from? It's not like there's a complete shortage, but they can't exactly tap the entire wealth of Siberia either.

Plus, I doubt the pool of refugees from which Russians can recruit is very large. Sure, people from former SSRs don't get a choice, but people from Poland or Easter Germans would rather run away to Germany or England to begin with.

...But then, Soviets have the technology to mass-clone enough people for whole battalion (hence Alternative III). One has to wonder just why they haven't continued to do so. Judging by Cryska and Inia, the ESPer pilots are quite effective as well.

That's the thing about the U.N. there is no one owner, but a leadership of representatives. Also, the U.N. army is like a centralized army, for use outside of the territorial boundaries, so as not to step on anyone's toes, eg say we need some Iranian troops to enter Turkish lands, but because of what your ancestor did XXX to my ancestor blah blah blah. So the Iranian troops become U.N. troops, and Turkey gets to save face. Of course, the people on the ground knows whats going on, so the U.N. Iranians are going to be watching their backs as well. Basically the U.N. is like a shared army, with deposits into it by other countries.

Baker analogy, bakery needs helpers, each country sends helpers in, and each helper can go to any countries bakeries to help bake stuff for the cake.

For the other scenario you pointed out, say if some anti nationalist gathers the other anti nationalist, firstly, he has to get past all the other nationalist that are all around him, top to bottom. Next, as soon as he has troops gathered in any one location, the other nations armies are going to band together and stomp it out. That isn't to say that a sufficiently clever person can't put it off, of course, but that it isn't easy.

And humans are always their own worse enemies. ML portrays this quite well.

In comparison to IRL U.N. as there is no unified threat that forces all nations to work together, the U.N. is more like a chain of bakeries, which some countries have, but others ban. So they are under supplied and over politicalized.

For the Soviet Union, they probably get their raw materials from the U.S. as well. They of course have the entire area to mine as well, so they can build ore refineries or something.
And the refugees dont really have a choice in where they end up, just the closest non BETA land they can find. Thats why in the TE anime Russian arc, the Zhar Battalion consists of non native conscripts... that can be replaced by Soviet command...
And the espers are genetically modified, not clones. They are two different things... Clones can be instant made, like the clone troopers. Genetically modified means an equal amount of fertilized eggs are needed, and time for them to grow up... which humanity is short of anyway.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Fallout was wrong. War...war does change.


But Man....Man never changes.

Well, and without that, there would be no grimdark.

Spoiler for Alternative III Details and Espers corner:

I'm pretty sure that's not entirely a case here.

From what I remember from Alternative, Yuuko mentioned that first-generation ESPers were simply very, very gifted people trained by Soviet Union - then they were mated together to produce children with higher potential of ESP ability, or chance of it manifesting. When that was too slow, the Soviets took their sperm and eggs and basically bred people on industrial scale, in addition modifying the genome to make sure that desired ESP traits manifest. Hence the Artificial Wombs.

I'm also sure that it was said that Soviets had the technology to "speed up" the time required for fetuses to grow up...and since we're in Soviet Super Science zone, it's not much of a stretch to assume that Soviets might have tinkered with their genetics to allow ESPers to age faster. Cryska's and Inia's year of birth is not stated like Yui's (unless it went completely over my head), so there's the possibility of that. It wouldn't be a "soldier factory", but probably still enough to make a difference...but then again, the labs might have been overrun or deliberately destroyed (at least one Soviet scientist would leak Alt. III details to EU, if Chronicles is to be believed) or "spirited away" when Soviets made the general retreat.

Also, even assuming that refugees would have no choice in where to go, that still wouldn't give Russians that many recruits - because all they would be bring with them are the recruits from the former SSRs - Chechens, Kazakhs, Georgians etc. Given how thoughtless the Soviet command is shown in dealing with them (complete with utterly ridiculous disregard for their casualties) this "supply" of recruits would not hold up indefinitely....and somehow I doubt that Chinese or Finnish refugees would sign up with the Red Army.

Of course, manpower issues are part of the reason for the whole Berkut plan and Scarlet Sisters. Even so...you'd think that a regime as genre savvy (to a point) about its own survival would handle it better.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Fallout was wrong. War...war does change.


But Man....Man never changes.

Well, and without that, there would be no grimdark.

Spoiler for Alternative III Details and Espers corner:

I'm pretty sure that's not entirely a case here.


From what I remember from Alternative, Yuuko mentioned that first-generation ESPers were simply very, very gifted people trained by Soviet Union - then they were mated together to produce children with higher potential of ESP ability, or chance of it manifesting. When that was too slow, the Soviets took their sperm and eggs and basically bred people on industrial scale, in addition modifying the genome to make sure that desired ESP traits manifest. Hence the Artificial Wombs.

I'm also sure that it was said that Soviets had the technology to "speed up" the time required for fetuses to grow up...and since we're in Soviet Super Science zone, it's not much of a stretch to assume that Soviets might have tinkered with their genetics to allow ESPers to age faster. Cryska's and Inia's year of birth is not stated like Yui's (unless it went completely over my head), so there's the possibility of that. It wouldn't be a "soldier factory", but probably still enough to make a difference...but then again, the labs might have been overrun or deliberately destroyed (at least one Soviet scientist would leak Alt. III details to EU, if Chronicles is to be believed) or "spirited away" when Soviets made the general retreat.

Nice thing you did with the Fallout quote lol.
Ok, went back to look for that part in Alternative just to sort this out.

Spoiler for Esper 101:

Yes, they started with cross breeding slowly for a few generations, then to mass produce, they did artificial insemination and grew the babies in artificial wombs. Up to this point is still genetic engineering that is available in modern day technology, since 1 egg + 1 sperm = 1 baby still, and women only have a limited amount of eggs in their body from birth, which takes time to mature until puberty, when they can be harvested. They then tinkered with the esper embryos to make them stronger espers.

At no point were they artificially aged, so the time needed to grow a child to an adult is still the same.

So the theory of using flash cloning to get instant soldiers is not doable. As you said, they tried to overcome this by improving the quality of the pilot, through Sandek's Total Eclipse plan. If it works, we will see the rebirth of the desperate plan to grow artificial children.

And the Soviet Union... is a communist state... with all that implies... so they have to find more conscripts before they run out of women to reproduce people...

[LeoXiao]

What exactly does this Sandek dude do? He's the blond Russian officer right?

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

What exactly does this Sandek dude do? He's the blond Russian officer right?

On paper,He is the Lieutenant in charge of Idar flight on loan from Russia to the UN for Project Prominice. the same position Ibrahim have in Argos.
On the Russian homefront side he have the rank of Major and is an instrumental member of the П3 Plan. which even the LN never fully explained, all that the reader is shown is that it involves espers and that the Su-47E somehow is critical to the plan's realization. . You will obviously find out more as the anime progresses but the truth about him probably won't be known until the VN is released.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

What exactly does this Sandek dude do? He's the blond Russian officer right?

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

On paper,He is the Lieutenant in charge of Idar flight on loan from Russia to the UN for Project Prominice. the same position Ibrahim have in Argos.
On the Russian homefront side he have the rank of Major and is an instrumental member of the П3 Plan. which even the LN never fully explained, all that the reader is shown is that it involves espers and that the Su-47E somehow is critical to the plan's realization. . You will obviously find out more as the anime progresses but the truth about him probably won't be known until the VN is released.

Actually wouldn't Sandek be more like Yui, in command of the developmental side of the Soviet research? Its just that since the Soviets objective is different, being more of testing TSFs already created together with the Twins Raising Project, he has to be their operational lead as well, giving him a dual role of flight commander and operations planning. So he is kinda the top dog in the Russian portion of Prominence.

Also the recent episode kinda leaked that the objective was to use a show of force to show the world that submission to the Soviet Union (either literally or by having the world use Russian TSFs and personnel exclusively) is the only way they can survive. Perhaps they have another Alternative plan in the works as well, to make up for the failure of their first one. The П3 Plan sounds like it derived from the Alt 3 Plan, only it focuses on humans... Guess we will have to see what future eps and the VN brings.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Thanks for clearing that ESPer thing up. It's been a while since I played Alternative.


Hmmm, yeah, I'm curious as to what the Soviet plan is meant to achieve...although something tells me that Sandek and actual Soviet military command might have different ideas. Kinda like Gendou Ikari and Seele in NGE. His introspection in "Butterfly Dream" shows that he isn't exactly sound. I imagine that he has his own plan not for the world, but rather for Scarlet Sisters and their future...much like a father to his children. A villainous father at that.

And he probably doesn't really give jack as to who's left standing in the end. If Schwarzemarken is anything to go by, Commies still cheerfully record anything, so Sandek might not have a choice is spewing patriotic bull.

Spoiler for For Butterfly Dream:

As far as what I interpret from Sandek's monologue, he wants Scarlet Sisters to become ultimate fighting machines. This seems to involve a lot of showing them why humans are just as bad as BETA, with Sandek having tried to use Yuuya as a sort of metaphor for all that is bad in humans - the prejudice, hatred, desire to fight etc. Plus probably trying to manipulate Sisters feelings of love by showing "You love him, but he ultimately loves someone else/used you/etc.

It ultimate backfires because of the events of Terrorist Arc, but it does put some events into perspective, like both Cryska and Inia being allowed to wander around Kachatka where they were bound to be jumped by some Russian-hating troops.

Or why Scarlet Sisters are deployed to wipe out the Zhar Battalion. I mean, they could have just used artillery (once lasers were cleared), or just send KGB's TSF unit (since Stasi has those in Schwarzemarken, I suppose KGB has them too) which would be more familiar with this kind of wet work)

[grevierr]

No problem. Always good to air out the theories and have a good discussion, 10 years of game history and back stories can make things blur quite a bit. Thanks for being a good discussion partner

And about Sandek, you got it mostly right. I wrote this once some where else before

Sorry, there is no From Moscow with love, because Moscow is no more...
In any case, Sandek's plan that allowed the two/three of them to develop is so that she can see that human emotions are not worth having when they break up... aka Bad End, Nice TSF... unfortunately, she got Tsun Tsuned by the Tsun beam emitted from Top Tsun...
Even a TACTICAL GENIUS like Sandek cannot predict with 100% the power of love...

Basically it ties in with his personal plan to have the Twins become the strongest individual fighting force.

Spoiler for Twins Raising project:

Most likely, like most warriors Sandek is a Patriot, willing to dirty his hands and use people as things, to accomplish his goals for the good of the homeland. Since till now we have no news about the Twins post TE, other than a few one liners in the Chronicles PV about Cryska saying Inia should live on post Operation Ouka, we will have to wait and see what the VN reveals. To him, the Twins might just be a tool, or they might be his last hope to prove that the Esper project is not a failure. At some point I would like to know as well how did Tristina aka Kasumi Yashiro get involved with the Russians again... unless Yoko 'aquired' Inia as well... in return for the XM3, maybe?

As for wiping out the Zhar battalion, they were the strongest force available on the spot at the time, and the more unusual orders they have to give others, chances are something is going to leak out, so they have to remove the 'issue' with the tools at hand. It was also likely a good chance to tune the Twins. Not to mention that mind wiping the bigger one is possible.

[LeoXiao]

Sandek is Polish right? I wonder where his true loyalty lies...

[Aravilar]

A question, does the Raptor's stealth system work against the BETA?

[Silvance]

Here's a simple and short answer: No, it doesn't.

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Aravilar

A question, does the Raptor's stealth system work against the BETA?

Let's see, the Raptor's stealth characteristics are designed to make them undetectable on radar, as well as suppress their IR and noise emissions, along with reducing the magnitude of vibrations from walking.
None of that is any help at all against the BETA.

[Wild Goose]

To elaborate further, BETA don't use conventional systems of detection - camoflage and stealth don't work on the BETA; it's been theorised that they hone in on silicon and other electronics and the emissions signatures of powerful computers - according to Yui in the Kamchatka arc, the BETA find a powerful computer next to a human to be irresistable.

The stealth measures of the Black Widow II and Raptor were oriented against human opponents, which has caused no small amount of consternation in the international community.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Sandek is Polish right? I wonder where his true loyalty lies...

Believe me, there have been a plenty of Polish people who had been fanatically loyal to Communist government.

Sandek might be one of them, or just plainly not care. One paycheck is as good as another.

Also while on the subject of stealth - contrary to popular belief in MuvLuv verse, F-22A doesn't have superior stealth compared to YF-23. They are equal, with YFs-23 melee-centric design giving it an edge in stealth combat.

So if there's a literal "backstabbing bastard TSF" it's the Black Widow, more so then Raptor.

In fact now that I think about it, I'm not even sure if its melee capacity was intended only against the BETA. After all, America has no other melee units, so if anyone had suddenly to go up against a squadron of Black Widows, they most likely would have no idea what to do for the first few minutes - which the YF-23 pilots would use to kill everyone else.