Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

I mean yeah even this episode we saw he could of ended the battle with one strike but decided not too since the true intentions of the Eunnchhs were displayed and the people were against it so it wouldn't have gained anything in Britainnia's side.

he didn't end it because the true intentions of the eunuchs were displayed, he ended it because if he took advantage and blasted the OBK, he wouldn't be able to peacefully control the people of CF, there would be insurgents. Both strategically and tactically he couldn't gain an advantage even if he defeated the Black Knights here.

Schneizel is reasonable in the way that he is a brilliant strategist and tactician like Zero/Lelouch. He isn't going to push in a situation which would have negative impact on him. But is he a good candidate for 'changing britannia from within'? Not likely.

Even Zero backs off from killing off the enemy because it would have a negative effect on him. In episode 10, he could've taken out Shinkirou and used it to wipe out Li's forces and freed Kallen.


Also, for Suzaku, even if he became knight of one and ruled Area 11 as governor, what makes anyone think that he would be a good leader. All he has is military training and muscle but little brain and administrative abilities. If he became governor of Area 11 and ruled it the way he imagined it (as in a way which would help the Japanese people) he'd be overwhelmed by bureaucracy, he doesn't have Lelouch or Schneizel's skills in utilizing peoples' potentials and talents.

take a look at how he (suzaku) lost an entire fleet in episode 6 to huge bubbles. Neither Schneizel nor Zero/Lelouch would've overlooked a potential threat like that if it were their naval fleets. Of course Zero did overlooked the land area during episode 10 when the waters turned the ground into mud, but that was to be expected since as Xingke mentioned that only a few people were aware of the information (which was lost due to bureaucratic corruption) that the land was recovered for irrigation or something and that the soil was unstable. But he did reduce the amount of water in the canal beforehand so that Xingke wouldn't be able to use the water to flood away their Knightmare frames with torrents of water.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The thing about Schenizeil's profile in the bios/spoilers state specifically that like Lelouch, he is a realist. So he's not one to go gung-ho on people and such or abuse it.

The episode more or less shows us that he's really not that much different than Lelouch, even with Lelouch going as far to say, "I knew you would pull back, but what would father have done?"

In comparison the two boys aren't as ruthless as their father in this case.

[m1thril]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

he didn't end it because the true intentions of the eunuchs were displayed, he ended it because if he took advantage and blasted the OBK, he wouldn't be able to peacefully control the people of CF, there would be insurgents. Both strategically and tactically he couldn't gain an advantage even if he defeated the Black Knights here.

Schneizel is reasonable in the way that he is a brilliant strategist and tactician like Zero/Lelouch. He isn't going to push in a situation which would have negative impact on him. But is he a good candidate for 'changing britannia from within'? Not likely.

Even Zero backs off from killing off the enemy because it would have a negative effect on him. In episode 10, he could've taken out Shinkirou and used it to wipe out Li's forces and freed Kallen.


Also, for Suzaku, even if he became knight of one and ruled Area 11 as governor, what makes anyone think that he would be a good leader. All he has is military training and muscle but little brain and administrative abilities. If he became governor of Area 11 and ruled it the way he imagined it (as in a way which would help the Japanese people) he'd be overwhelmed by bureaucracy, he doesn't have Lelouch or Schneizel's skills in utilizing peoples' potentials and talents.

take a look at how he (suzaku) lost an entire fleet in episode 6 to huge bubbles. Neither Schneizel nor Zero/Lelouch would've overlooked a potential threat like that if it were their naval fleets. Of course Zero did overlooked the land area during episode 10 when the waters turned the ground into mud, but that was to be expected since as Xingke mentioned that only a few people were aware of the information (which was lost due to bureaucratic corruption) that the land was recovered for irrigation or something and that the soil was unstable.

that only shows that he sucks as a military strategist. nothing in the series shows whether he is good or bad at administration.

btw why does everyone still say his mech is hax'd esp with the introduction of all the new ones in R2?

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by m1thril

that only shows that he sucks as a military strategist. nothing in the series shows whether he is good or bad at administration.

being a good strategist and tactician often also gives the added benefit of being good with administration. In both situations you only get maximum optimum effect if you know how to employ people and utilize their abilities and talents to the full potential possible. Trying to figure out contigency plans and counter contigency plans, considering the possibilities of 'what if...' and thinking out of the box (in Suzaku's case all he knows mostly is how to follow orders, he isn't capable as a leader) all part of being a good strategist or good administrator..

[m1thril]

so how does the bubbles thing show he didn't use his troops' abilities to their fullest potential? also suzaku seemed pretty surprised that there was a methane plant..yes the mistake he made was that he overlooked the environment in that case...but you have to admit that he was about to defeat the OOBK. he's the one who cornered them, but it just so happened that LL lucked out since there was a freakin methane plant there.

[DN24]

Are you saying that because you think he'll suck at administration that he shouldn't try and help his people? And it would be wiser for him to leave them to that masked terrorist who would kill them for his own gain? Sound really stupid to me...

I'm impressed with Schneizel speech this episode,he might be not too bad after all..

[Silver Soul]

He's just too caught up in Lelouch's harem to actually listen to what the other characters have to say, as long as Lelouch comes out on tp who cares if Schneizel intentions aren't as what we see to be from his siblings

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

being a good strategist and tactician often also gives the added benefit of being good with administration. In both situations you only get maximum optimum effect if you know how to employ people and utilize their abilities and talents to the full potential possible. Trying to figure out contigency plans and counter contigency plans, considering the possibilities of 'what if...' and thinking out of the box (in Suzaku's case all he knows mostly is how to follow orders, he isn't capable as a leader) all part of being a good strategist or good administrator..

I dunno, we do see Suzaku running things around in Japan and he seemed to have things under control. The men respected him, that's one key thing to have as a leader.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I dunno, we do see Suzaku running things around in Japan and he seemed to have things under control. The men respected him, that's one key thing to have as a leader.

Ever read Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber? In it there is a leader who is brave, strong, kind, intelligent and everyone respected him, yet due to his indecisiveness his own group had a lot of internal troubles and finally those under him who were better skilled with tactics, strategies and administrations betrayed him because they knew if they relied on him for everything they would lose in the end.

Suzaku isn't capable of planning ahead or planning to win. As I said before he relies too much on brute strength without any focus. He focuses only on the now, Lelouch on the other hand plans his moves several steps ahead.

And lets not forget, Suzaku running things in Area 11 has britannia military backing him and the oppressed people of Japan aren't armed or trained soldiers (all their trained soldiers are either dead or captured or has joined the Black Knights most likely). And currently in Area 11, the elevens don't exactly have equal rights, freedom of speech, etc as the Britannians do they. For the elevens left in Area 11, its currently do as the Britannians say or die.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Ever read Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber? In it there is a leader who is brave, strong, kind, intelligent and everyone respected him, yet due to his indecisiveness his own group had a lot of internal troubles and finally those under him who were better skilled with tactics, strategies and administrations betrayed him because they knew if they relied on him for everything they would lose in the end.

By the end of this, I don't think Suzaku will be as bad off as you think though.

Suzaku isn't capable of planning ahead or planning to win. As I said before he relies too much on brute strength without any focus. He focuses only on the now, Lelouch on the other hand plans his moves several steps ahead.

Yeah? But Lelouch is also thrown off his plans when ONE over-site happens. His plans continually fail when something he does not factor in happens. He doesn't know how to adjust right away.

And lets not forget, Suzaku running things in Area 11 has britannia military backing him and the oppressed people of Japan aren't armed or trained soldiers (all their trained soldiers are either dead or captured or has joined the Black Knights most likely). And currently in Area 11, the elevens don't exactly have equal rights, freedom of speech, etc as the Britannians do they. For the elevens left in Area 11, its currently do as the Britannians say or die.

That is true... Of course a rebellion which happened can hinder any equal rights happening. And since there WAS a rebellion, the Britannians want to try and keep the Eleven's under control so it doesn't happen again. So who is to blame really? It is a two edged sword. It isn't just the Britannians that are the cause, but also the Black Knights.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by m1thril

so how does the bubbles thing show he didn't use his troops' abilities to their fullest potential? also suzaku seemed pretty surprised that there was a methane plant..yes the mistake he made was that he overlooked the environment in that case...but you have to admit that he was about to defeat the OOBK. he's the one who cornered them, but it just so happened that LL lucked out since there was a freakin methane plant there.

Just look at how big a force he had to use to capture 1 small submarine. If it were Schneizel or Lelouch in his shoes, I doubt they would've needed such a large force or used such a brute force method to capture the submarine.

And a military commander who doesn't properly gather as much intel about the terrain of battle beforehand isn't a capable leader at all. The OBK may have set off those methane tanks, but it was Suzaku's ineptness which got the soldiers killed in a wasted effort. Suzaku went in to capture the OBK just because he learned about their secret 'hideout' but he didn't think ahead to carefully formulate a plan which would've ensured 100% success even if the unexpected happened. It seems to me Suzaku never attended anything equivalent to an officer's training academy in the britannia military. He instantly rose from a normal foot soldier to a knightmare pilot to a knight of rounds only due to his piloting skills and capture of Zero.

In real world military forces you don't get to lead a unit or team of soldiers unless you've proven that you are capable of leading them without getting them killed for stupid reasons. Not every single officer in uniform is capable of leading troops effectively, thats why there are a lot of officers who have been promoted to higher ranks but only get desk jobs while others who are effective and capable actually go into the field commanding troops. The only reason Suzaku has troops under his command is because he has such a high rank but many times his forces get beaten by a smaller number of enemies unless of course he comes out to the frontline and goes solo in his advanced knightmare frame. even the EU has managed to hold off the Britannia forces from advancing too quickly, and in North Africa, Schneizel had to send out Suzaku to take care of the EU forces which were holding their ground against slightly more advanced Britannia knightmare frames.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

By the end of this, I don't think Suzaku will be as bad off as you think though.



Yeah? But Lelouch is also thrown off his plans when ONE over-site happens. His plans continually fail when something he does not factor in happens. He doesn't know how to adjust right away.



That is true... Of course a rebellion which happened can hinder any equal rights happening. And since there WAS a rebellion, the Britannians want to try and keep the Eleven's under control so it doesn't happen again. So who is to blame really? It is a two edged sword. It isn't just the Britannians that are the cause, but also the Black Knights.

1) Lelouch's plans only fail when something which is unbelievably unexpected occurs, otherwise he always accounted for most contigencies. In R1, who would've expected that there would be another being like CC who would come and kidnap Nunally, after all Zero's identity was known only to CC and a few dead people. And the appearance of Orange-borg in his spikeball frame was also another matter which was completely unexpected, no one, not even the Britannian forces fighting in Tokyo knew of it's existance.

2) The Shenhu appearing in Episode 10 to stop Zero, that was also unbelievably unexpected since there was never any hint or tiny intel about such a knightmare frame or the fact that the Eunuchs would allow Xingke to use it.

3) Lelouch being outsmarted by Cornelia once during the earlier episodes of R1 (before the creation of the OBK), especially this failure, wasn't his fault as the rebel group he was trying to lead was resisting his lead.


So you're saying that the Elevens should just give up any hope of regaining their cultural and national identity and live without their full rights and freedom? That they should place their hopes in a person who committed patricide just because he couldn't stand the sounds of soldiers fighting? Someone who seems to be more willing to following britannian orders than trying to openly change the britannian system even from the inside?

Why don't you go tell that to the Indians or people in Indochina, or many places in Africa whose nations were once British, French, Italian, etc colonies. Those same colonies had their natural resources taken from them, their national treasures looted, their rights taken away and it wasn't until after WWI that many of them gained freedom after the world realized that Colonization and Imperialism were 'wrong'.

Suzaku was willing to accept the fact that a ~14 year old girl should marry a man old enough to be her grandfather for the sake of peace... and later was more than willing to accept that same girl should be allowed to die at the hands of corrupt pigs for their own greed?

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Just look at how big a force he had to use to capture 1 small submarine. If it were Schneizel or Lelouch in his shoes, I doubt they would've needed such a large force or used such a brute force method to capture the submarine.

That is a cop-out. What better way to finish off a bunch of terrorists than by surrounding them completely? It seemed to work for Cornelia when she attacked the JLF (before that too was messed up by something unexpected.) So please try again.

And a military commander who doesn't properly gather as much intel about the terrain of battle beforehand isn't a capable leader at all. The OBK may have set off those methane tanks, but it was Suzaku's ineptness which got the soldiers killed in a wasted effort. Suzaku went in to capture the OBK just because he learned about their secret 'hideout' but he didn't think ahead to carefully formulate a plan which would've ensured 100% success even if the unexpected happened. It seems to me Suzaku never attended anything equivalent to an officer's training academy in the britannia military. He instantly rose from a normal foot soldier to a knightmare pilot to a knight of rounds only due to his piloting skills and capture of Zero.

So... Because he didn't expect a bubble attack caused by human hands, he is a bad commander? So I guess Cornelia is bad too because she didn't expect a landslide that was also caused by human hands? Again, try again.

Everyone is thrown off guard by something in this show. lelouch has had things happen that ruined his plans too, and him failing to fix them right away. The unexpected happens and nobody is immune to it. Besides, expecting them to cause the Methane to bubble up is not something one expects.

The only reason Suzaku has troops under his command is because he has such a high rank but many times his forces get beaten by a smaller number of enemies unless of course he comes out to the frontline and goes solo in his advanced knightmare frame. even the EU has managed to hold off the Britannia forces from advancing too quickly, and in North Africa, Schneizel had to send out Suzaku to take care of the EU forces which were holding their ground against slightly more advanced Britannia knightmare frames.

Okay, but this doesn't have anything to do with Suzaku's strategy making. That was Schneizel's campaign, not Suzaku's.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

1) Lelouch's plans only fail when something which is unbelievably unexpected occurs, otherwise he always accounted for most contigencies.

You mean... like Lancelot showed up at Narita? Or... when Cornelia saw through his moves in that first meeting? Or... when Euphemia set up the SAZ? Or... that whole mess during the Black Rebellion, whether it was Jeremiah showing up, Cornelia sneak attacking him on the roof, or when he left? Righhht... <.<'

2) The Shenhu appearing in Episode 10 to stop Zero, that was also unbelievably unexpected since there was never any hint or tiny intel about such a knightmare frame or the fact that the Eunuchs would allow Xingke to use it.

That doesn't matter. He never adapted to the situation and his whole plan was thrown off forcing him to retreat.

3) Lelouch being outsmarted by Cornelia once during the earlier episodes of R1 (before the creation of the OBK), especially this failure, wasn't his fault as the rebel group he was trying to lead was resisting his lead.

That doesn't matter, his plan was seen through. he never adapted his tactics and it bit him in the ass.

So you're saying that the Elevens should just give up any hope of regaining their cultural and national identity and live without their full rights and freedom?

Of course not, but are you going to deny that teh rebellion wasn't a cause for even more rights being taken away? Because if you do, that is just down right ignorant.

That they should place their hopes in a person who committed patricide just because he couldn't stand the sounds of soldiers fighting?

Suzaku made it clear that his father was an ass who was ready to rip the country in three parts. So that is just wrong to say.

Someone who seems to be more willing to following britannian orders than trying to openly change the britannian system even from the inside?

I don't get taht feeling at all.

Suzaku was willing to accept the fact that a ~14 year old girl should marry a man old enough to be her grandfather for the sake of peace... and later was more than willing to accept that same girl should be allowed to die at the hands of corrupt pigs for their own greed?

Of course, he has no say in the matter. It was Schneizel's plan, not his. It also would have prevented a war, which is all anybody really wants. You really need to re-evaluate that whole situation again I think.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

That is a cop-out. What better way to finish off a bunch of terrorists than by surrounding them completely? It seemed to work for Cornelia when she attacked the JLF (before that too was messed up by something unexpected.) So please try again.



So... Because he didn't expect a bubble attack caused by human hands, he is a bad commander? So I guess Cornelia is bad too because she didn't expect a landslide that was also caused by human hands? Again, try again.

Everyone is thrown off guard by something in this show. lelouch has had things happen that ruined his plans too, and him failing to fix them right away. The unexpected happens and nobody is immune to it. Besides, expecting them to cause the Methane to bubble up is not something one expects.



Okay, but this doesn't have anything to do with Suzaku's strategy making. That was Schneizel's campaign, not Suzaku's.

Let's analyze Suzaku's attempt to capture the OBK submarine in terms of what would happen in real world military forces.

Suzaku: I would like to requisition the use of a dozen or more warships along with a full compliment of troops and several dozen anti-submarine knightmare frames to capture 1 enemy submarine.

he gets what he asks for and comes back with his entire force wiped out without a single enemy casualty.

If this happened in the real world he would be facing a military trial and the prosecutor is going to ask him: Let me get this straight. You are saying you lost over a dozen warships, several dozen expensive military equipment and possibly hundreds if not thousands of personnel all because you didn't consider the fact that there could be a tiniest possibility that the enemy would use those underwater tanks full of thousands of liters of methane against your forces?....Just hold on a minute...you didn't even realize that those methane tanks existed at that location in the first place? Didn't you check the terrain?

and he'd be court martialed for negligence and incompetence.

From my understanding of real world military training, officers who are put in charge of leading troops into battle are at least given basic chemistry, biology, physics and other science courses. And if they aren't they are provided with people under them with such education who will be able to advise the commander and assist in formulating a proper strategy and tactic. In the real world there would've been someone under Suzaku's command who would've piped up 'Commander, is there any possibility that the enemy may make use of those methane tanks against us?' and I am sure those naval forces would be aware of the existance of those tanks because
1) they are equipped with sonar and whatever else sensors they have
2) they would have well updated ocean maps showing how deep the water is at which location, where the sandbars are, etc.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Let's analyze Suzaku's attempt to capture the OBK submarine in terms of what would happen in real world military forces.

I said this before in another topic, I will say this again here. Real world stuff means nothing in anime like this.

If this happened in the real world he would be facing a military trial and the prosecutor is going to ask him: Let me get this straight. You are saying you lost over a dozen warships, several dozen expensive military equipment and possibly hundreds if not thousands of personnel all because you didn't consider the fact that there could be a tiniest possibility that the enemy would use those underwater tanks full of thousands of liters of methane against your forces?

I don't think a bunch of methane bubbles would be a cause for a military defeat in real life myself.

The BK's sub launched missiles at something which caused the ocean floor to erupt in a sea of killer bubbles. And about checking the terrain... he probably did, but he didn't think they would DO that. It would have put the BK's in harms way after all. Hell, before lelouch brought it up, not ONE of the other Black Knights realized that it was there either, and they were right there the entire time.

and he'd be court martialed for negligence and incompetence.

If you can name me one person in real life that would see that happening (bubbles being the cause of a military defeat that is) then MAYBE you would have a point. But I don't think you can.

From my understanding of real world military training, officers who are put in charge of leading troops into battle are at least given basic chemistry, biology, physics and other science courses. And if they aren't they are provided with people under them with such education who will be able to advise the commander and assist in formulating a proper strategy and tactic. In the real world there would've been someone under Suzaku's command who would've piped up 'Commander, is there any possibility that the enemy may make use of those methane tanks against us?' and I am sure those naval forces would be aware of the existance of those tanks because
1) they are equipped with sonar and whatever else sensors they have
2) they would have well updated ocean maps showing how deep the water is at which location, where the sandbars are, etc.

Again real-world stuff has no bearing in a science-fiction anime. Although I don't think in real life defeat by bubbles is even plausible or realistic in any terms that you can present. I see it more as Plot Induced Stupidity than actually a realistic defeat.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I said this before in another topic, I will say this again here. Real world stuff means nothing in anime like this.



I don't think a bunch of methane bubbles would be a cause for a military defeat in real life myself.

The BK's sub launched missiles at something which caused the ocean floor to erupt in a sea of killer bubbles. And about checking the terrain... he probably did, but he didn't think they would DO that. It would have put the BK's in harms way after all. Hell, before lelouch brought it up, not ONE of the other Black Knights realized that it was there either, and they were right there the entire time.



If you can name me one person in real life that would see that happening (bubbles being the cause of a military defeat that is) then MAYBE you would have a point. But I don't think you can.



Again real-world stuff has no bearing in a science-fiction anime. Although I don't think in real life defeat by bubbles is even plausible or realistic in any terms that you can present. I see it more as Plot Induced Stupidity than actually a realistic defeat.

Whether methane bubbles would wipe out a fleet or not in the real world doesn't matter, it's the concept that Suzaku failed to protect the forces under his command that counts. Also all ships depend on the stability of their buoyancy, especially large ships like those, to prevent themselves from capsizing. and here is some info about methyl hydrade:
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00116/meth.htm
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explor...fire/fire.html
http://www.offnews.info/verArticulo....ntenidoID=7571
so I have to say yes, bubbles can sink ships. And yes I just realized that Lelouch wasn't trying to blow up those methane tanks or whatever those tanks held though it is most likely that methane was it, Lelouch was trying to disturb the ocean floor deposits of methyl hydrates and from the articles about methyl hydrates, it seems the britannians were trying to utilize the deposits of this natural resource and in the 'mining' process use methane as an inhibitor.

And you can't expect the OBK submarine to be aware of the ocean floor completely, especially inside Britannian territory and a britannian commander who fails to even consider the remotest possibility...("When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) and Suzaku didn't even try to consider any strategic or tactical advantages those tanks could possibly provide.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Whether methane bubbles would wipe out a fleet or not in the real world doesn't matter, it's the concept that Suzaku failed to protect the forces under his command that counts.

Then it should be understandable that they wouldn't think of Methane Bubbles being an issue if NOBODY in their right minds would expect it. So yeah, try again. Also, if this is the only thing you have, then your argument in flawed.

And you can't expect the OBK submarine to be aware of the ocean floor completely, especially inside Britannian territory and a britannian commander who fails to even consider the remotest possibility...("When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) and Suzaku didn't even try to consider any strategic or tactical advantages those tanks could possibly provide.

So I guess Cornelia is a horrible commander too because she didn't expect the remotest of possibilities that there would be a man-made landslide. Not everything goes according to plan, and shit happens that nobody expects. Suzaku didn't expect the bubbles just like Lelouch didn't expect Cornelia to blow him out in their first battle.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Then it should be understandable that they wouldn't think of Methane Bubbles being an issue if NOBODY in their right minds would expect it. So yeah, try again. Also, if this is the only thing you have, then your argument in flawed.



So I guess Cornelia is a horrible commander too because she didn't expect the remotest of possibilities that there would be a man-made landslide. Not everything goes according to plan, and shit happens that nobody expects. Suzaku didn't expect the bubbles just like Lelouch didn't expect Cornelia to blow him out in their first battle.

1. Ahh but in the real world, bubbles CAN sink a ship. But the important thing is Suzaku is accountable for the lives wasted of his own troops. How will he answer the wives and children of those soldiers that died? Is he going to handwrite a personally written letter to each family? He failed to even injure much less kill or take prisoner one member of the OBK at that skirmish.

So since methyl hydrate bubbles can cause a ship to sink, I am sure that every real world naval commander (at least in the nations which have a world class navy) would be taught about the dangers of methyl hydrate deposits in the ocean.

2. Cornelia's failure to predict a man made landslide is the same is Lelouch's failure to expect any other geass being to kidnap Nunally. It's not the same as Suzaku's failure to realize any potential threats to the troops under his command. Compared to Cornelia, Schneizel and Lelouch, Suzaku is a retard when it comes to strategies and tactics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anyone who expects for Suzaku to be sentenced in any "real" military for the methane-bubble event is ignoring a rather critical fact: in any "real" military, Suzaku wouldn't have been in command in the first place. He would be in the position he most often is: an ace flier, and not in tactical or strategic command. It's a non-starter to take the half and ignore the other.

Personally, I question the physics and effectiveness of the methane bubble trick, even more than I do the mudslide ambush. I'm no physics major, but I'm pretty sure that neither would have been anywhere near as devastating or effective.