Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - General Discussion

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Face it, just because you don't understand the show and are too lazy to attempt to do so doesn't make it bad, nor does it make the Japanese sniveling peons.

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

with Japanese reference all over the place in this show, we (non Japanese ppl) do need to at least do some research...

but some people are too 'proud' with their incapabilities and choose to bitch instead of do some study

Again, the assumption is that people are too lazy to look up research for this show. The problem is, unfortunately, most people do not realize that they even needed to research or that a viable summarized research option is available. I, for one, did not realize about all these rules (looking up glossary terms, getting better subs, etc.) before people have pointed them out in this thread. Just because I did not realize these things, did not mean I am too lazy to research. I was willing to go on here and try to understand, which a large number of anime viewers do not even think of as an option. You cannot look and study things when you do not even know you had to.

I have watched many sci-fi, fantasy, and creative works of arts through the years, so I am definitely not a novice to the genre. Almost always, I understand them quite well. This is the first time I have met with a series that I feel was too confusing, and again, I feel it has to do with execution. 90% fluff and then 10% massive infodump is just a recipe for disaster. As with many anime viewers (not all), we do not have time to continually watch the same episodes over and over again to study every detail. As many people will probably feel, if they have to try so hard to watch a series, why spend their time on this rather than something else.

The producers should have either chosen to please the novel readers or please the anime viewers. From my perspective, it looks like they are trying to please the novel readers, but others have mention that the novel readers are not pleased. Hence, I believe they should have emphasized more on helping the anime viewers, which JediNight's method would have helped, even if it would have angered the novel reader fans.

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

Look, his method might have been better, but you have to understand that it would have completely changed what this series is. Even if the story is same, presentation can easily change a lot of things in a series.

I agree with this statement. For better or for worse, we will not know since it was not done. We can only go by what has been done, which for many, seems to be poorly executed or for many others, brilliantly done, depending on if you know the source material or not.

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

Like it or not, this show does have a goofy side to it and showing that can't be achieved by just showing idiotic nature of the main character. This show doesn't treat its large cast as just fodder and we should understand that.

I do look forward to further development from many of the characters. Right now, it is just characters spam, without much depth for most of them.

As for the goofy part, it is one of the more confusing aspects of the show. On the one hand, the show appears to be deep, intellectual, and to be taken seriously. On the other hand, it wants to be goofy and illogical, just throw your brain out the window and have fun with it. The contrast is jarring, and it makes you wonder why you have to do further research when you have to throw your brain out the window at the same time. That choice in direction is confusing as well. Right now, it is hard to figure out what the show's identity or purpose is. Yes, it is only 4 episodes in, but I do feel these 4 episodes would have worked just as well in 1 or 2 episodes, if executed better, and reducing the amount of goofiness.

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

Convoluted settings like these are better left to written medium. I just don't find visual medium to be cut out for such things.

I couldn't agree with you more. However, with proper execution, even complex works of art can be appealing in a visual medium. Take "Lord of the Rings", "Game of Thrones", "Seikai no Senki", and "The Twelve Kingdoms". They are all complex works with unique environments, but the visual adaptations are, for the most part, very well executed.

I do have a better grasp of the series now, and I do appreciate it more. However, I also understand why people are griping about it. Let's see where the series go from here. I do expect a lot of changes in direction for episode 5.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Again, the assumption is that people are too lazy to look up research for this show. The problem is, unfortunately, most people do not realize that they even needed to research or that a viable summarized research option is available. I, for one, did not realize about all these rules (looking up glossary terms, getting better subs, etc.) before people have pointed them out in this thread. Just because I did not realize these things, did not mean I am too lazy to research. I was willing to go on here and try to understand, which a large number of anime viewers do not even think of as an option. You cannot look and study things when you do not even know you had to.

I have watched many sci-fi, fantasy, and creative works of arts through the years, so I am definitely not a novice to the genre. Almost always, I understand them quite well. This is the first time I have met with a series that I feel was too confusing, and again, I feel it has to do with execution. 90% fluff and then 10% massive infodump is just a recipe for disaster. As with many anime viewers (not all), we do not have time to continually watch the same episodes over and over again to study every detail. As many people will probably feel, if they have to try so hard to watch a series, why spend their time on this rather than something else.

The producers should have either chosen to please the novel readers or please the anime viewers. From my perspective, it looks like they are trying to please the novel readers, but others have mention that the novel readers are not pleased. Hence, I believe they should have emphasized more on helping the anime viewers, which JediNight's method would have helped, even if it would have angered the novel reader fans.

But you need to realise that the series is made for Japanese viewers and they don't have to look for the correct subtitles and they can also follow the web links provided with the episodes and previews to check up the info needed. It's not like you need to do some major studying to understand. All that is needed really is to look over the character profiles so that you can remember who is who easier. The rest is easy to understand if you aren't confused by the large cast.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Znail

But you need to realise that the series is made for Japanese viewers and they don't have to look for the correct subtitles and they can also follow the web links provided with the episodes and previews to check up the info needed. It's not like you need to do some major studying to understand. All that is needed really is to look over the character profiles so that you can remember who is who easier. The rest is easy to understand if you aren't confused by the large cast.

True, that the show is aimed primarily towards a Japanese audience, so my perspective is skewed towards the Western community. However, from what I know of people from Japan that I have met, they are workaholics. The children also spend a large amount of time on studying for school. Also, the majority of viewers will watch the shows on TV when it airs. Hence, they do not always get a chance to watch the show over and over to get all the details.

Therefore, most of the confusion that I see so far is from the Western audience. Does anyone have information on how the Japanese audience is reacting to the series?

[Znail]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

True, that the show is aimed primarily towards a Japanese audience, so my perspective is skewed towards the Western community. However, from what I know of people from Japan that I have met, they are workaholics. The children also spend a large amount of time on studying for school. Also, the majority of viewers will watch the shows on TV when it airs. Hence, they do not always get a chance to watch the show over and over to get all the details.

Therefore, most of the confusion that I see so far is from the Western audience. Does anyone have information on how the Japanese audience is reacting to the series?

It's doing very well, it has some 4500 or so pre-ordered first volume sales. Unless something change in this series popularity so can we expect it to get more seasons in the future.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Znail

It's doing very well, it has some 4500 or so pre-ordered first volume sales. Unless something change in this series popularity so can we expect it to get more seasons in the future.

Sales are always a tricky figure to go by from a series that has an established fanbase. I was hoping to hear more about how people in Japan's forums are taking it, especially from people who are not familiar with the source material.

[Allen]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Sales are always a tricky figure to go by from a series that has an established fanbase. I was hoping to hear more about how people in Japan's forums are taking it, especially from people who are not familiar with the source material.

It's not like I'm reading every post in the 2ch thread, but the initial reactions were more or less the same as here:

*Some complained about the excessive load of information (including number of characters);
*Some said that this was only a fanservice anime;
*Some are watching only for the boobs/actions scenes
*Some found fun while don't understanding much of it;
*Some liked and searched/asked for info that they couldn't get it -> normally there are at least three/four different answers (sometimes with spoilers) -> complains about this -> repeat from the start with a new question;
*Some really liked and even went to buy the novels (there are guys who already have read until the last volume lol);

I don't know how exactly is the situation now, but it's probably not so much different from the start but with less people complaining (they got used to the load of info or stopped watching it?).

One funny example: There was a guy who recommended this anime to three friends. After the first episode:

The friend A understood well the setting;
The friend B got the general idea of the setting; -> most normal reaction?
The friend C started talking about the different sizes of breasts and already started memorizing the name of these female characters

[Cosmic Eagle]

Generally on 2ch it seems more or less the same as any other series in posts from the past 5 days onwards or so...IE, the normal kind of discussions going on round here.

The spoiler thread is already on its 10th incarnation btw....

Dunno what initial reactions were though. Too far back and time consuming to check...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Megami December issue.



P.S - No large image yet

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Allen

It's not like I'm reading every post in the 2ch thread, but the initial reactions were more or less the same as here:

So it is more or less the same there as it is outside of Japan, with somewhat less complaints due to a better understanding. Hence, they are facing the same problems with the Japanese audience as they are with the Western viewers.

Originally Posted by Allen

One funny example: There was a guy who recommended this anime to three friends. After the first episode:

The friend A understood well the setting;
The friend B got the general idea of the setting; -> most normal reaction?
The friend C started talking about the different sizes of breasts and already started memorizing the name of these female characters

LOL That's funny. Different people do really watch these shows for different reasons, with a different level of understanding.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I think we know by now that the Japanese are easily amused and settle for some pretty terrible shows. Show all the patience you like, that's fine. It still doesn't make the material adapted well. Merely that people are willing to tolerate the wait.

And sales have little bearing on the quality of a show. A lot of the best shows get mediocre sales because they don't appeal to the gutter fans of broadest appeal. Gundam Seed Destiny sold like 80k units per volume and it was terrible overall. Infinite Stratos is one giant cliche trope factory and it got like 40-50k units per volume.

And your own view is so damned superior?

[removed]Name me your entire list of these so called terrible shows not just two.

I can tell you most of the generally good shows around fared well in the Japanese market.

[Nightengale]

The way I see it, it's a lose-lose situation however you try to approach it.

Storytelling always has its conflicts in between 'show' or 'tell.' And there's always examples where both extremes have worked and failed due to various reasons.

Take LoTR movies for example... Imagine the Trilogy without the opening prologue that explained how the Rings were forged,how Sauron was defeated and how The One Ring became lost.

Or Xam'd for example, where the series tried to 'show' everything and let the viewers dissect the history and depth of the story without relying on unnatural expositions or stuff.

Horizon is trying to mesh both in consideration of the large scale of the story... Both with the one-day 4-episode narrative where it captures the differentiated approach of different characters to the story, inject a bit of exposition to explain the story background, but still leave enough empty slots where we can generally understand what some terms mean in general.

However, it does still need one to pay attention... and pause every now and then to absorb the whole information.

[j0x]

well im gonna be honest here too that i do not understand well how the story of this anime goes yet and im hoping on later episodes it will be cleared but the action and the amount of intriguing characters is enough for me to be motivated to finished this

and lol haters gonna hate

[Aoi Toori]

Originally Posted by jix

well im gonna be honest here too that i do not understand well how the story of this anime goes yet and im hoping on later episodes it will be cleared but the action and the amount of intriguing characters is enough for me to be motivated to finished this

and lol haters gonna hate

It's very simple :

Originally Posted by stuopidget

K.P.A. Italia goes to Mikawa to talk about Deadly Sin Armament (episode 2)
Tres Espania is just escorting K.P.A. Italia (episode 3)
Mikawa is preparing firework is connected to the Genesis Plan; we have no idea what this is (episode 2). The firework is the explosion of the nuclear reactor (episode 4)
Musashi, the chancellor is preparing to confess to someone, and they're having a party (episode 2-4)

So to simplify this even more.

K.P.A Italia and Tres Espania visits Mikawa to talk about weapons the same time Musashi docks there

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I had as much prior knowledge of the series coming into the first episode as anyone who has read the basic synopsis and just did bare minimum research on the factions and such. Just watch episodes 1-4 and pay attention. Refer to this whenever you come across a word you don't understand and seems important. It's really not that hard.

[JediNight]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And your own view is so damned superior?
[removed]Name me your entire list of these so called terrible shows not just two.
I can tell you most of the generally good shows around fared well in the Japanese market.

Uh oh, someone's angry...

It's really not hard to see why this happens. Mainstream popularity is often quite different from critical acclaim. How many Best Picture winners for movies were blockbuster hits? Very few. The Transformers movies made hundreds of millions of dollars each, yet were widely panned as terrible films.

From this summer for example: Vol1 sales for Dantalian are listed as 667. Kamisama Memo-chou and Dolls are both at 1500. While neither of them were amazing, I felt they deserved better than that. Especially since Manyuu Hikenchou sold like 3800. Uta no Prince-sama Maji LOVE 1000% sold 25k.... Heck even Dog Days in the spring sold 11k and that was a nonsensical silly show too.

Tits and explosions nets the biggest sales quite often in anime, just like movies.

[Marcus H.]

Less flames, less rage, more enjoyment.
And besides, we're in the Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon thread. We have to accept that this is the turf of the supporters of Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon, so we must avoid pointing out that they have made a mistake in enjoying this series. Otherwise, it's like attacking a fortress alone using a knife.

And always remember,

[articuzwolf]

after malukth now we have jednight? complaining because anime doesn't spoonfeed them LOL

hey, thanks mate for helping us bumping this thread up and keep that up actually...

== edit ==

whoops, sorry

[ninja_pintu]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Tits and explosions nets the biggest sales quite often in anime, just like movies.

You are over exaggerating. Most of the best sellers had something in them which made the viewers buy them and that certainly wasn't tits and explosions. Even Persona 4 and Fate/Zero, which are most probably going to be the best sellers of this season, aren't about fanservice at all.

And plus, if what you say is true, then Maken-ki should blow every other series this season

[Aoi Toori]

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

You are over exaggerating. Most of the best sellers had something in them which made the viewers buy them and that certainly wasn't tits and explosions. Even Persona 4 and Fate/Zero, which are most probably going to be the best sellers of this season, aren't about fanservice at all.

And plus, if what you say is true, then Maken-ki should blow every other series this season

o yeah fate/zero already reach no.1 for now at amazonstalker, it's a nice anime too isn't it? or is it mediocre because of good sales?

btw that link by Xacual was hillarious, oh the difference..

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

And plus, if what you say is true, then Maken-ki should blow every other series this season

It is the most expensive per episode basis though!!!

全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 49,350, \4,113/話 KAD. マケン姫っ！(Makenki)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 49,140, \4,095/話 PC　 真剣で私に恋しなさい！ (Majikoi)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 49,140, \4,095/話 MFI . ましろ色シンフォニー (Mashiroiro)
全13話 全07巻 1クール 計\. 49,350, \3,797/話 SHO. たまゆら ～hitotose～ (Tamayura)
全13話 全07巻 1クール 計\. 48,300, \3,715/話 ANX. WORKING’！！
全13話 全07巻 1クール 計\. 47,880, \3,684/話 BAV. 境界線上のホライゾン (Horizonnnnnnn)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 44,100, \3,675/話 MFI . 僕は友達が少ない (Haganai)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 42,840, \3,570/話 PC　 ベン・トー (Bento)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 42,840, \3,570/話 PC　 侵略！？イカ娘 (Ika)
全22話 全11巻 2クール 計\. 78,540, \3,570/話 ANX. ギルティクラウン (Guilty Crown)
全12話 全06巻 1クール 計\. 40,320, \3,360/話 ANX. 君と僕。 (Kimi to Boku)
全13話 全05巻 1クール 計\. 42,000, \3,231/話 K　　 C3 -シーキューブ-

全13話 全01巻 1クール 計\. 39,800, \3,061/話 ANX. Fate/Zero

全21話 全07巻 2クール 計\. 62,860, \2,994/話 JVC. LAST EXILE -銀翼のファム-
全25話 全09巻 2クール 計\. 68,040, \2,722/話 ANX. PERSONA4
全26話 全09巻 2クール 計\. 68,880, \2,650/話 KAD. 未来日記 (Mirai Nikki)
全24話 全08巻 2クール 計\. 62,600, \2,609/話 GUE. 灼眼のシャナ Final (Shana)
全25話 全07巻 2クール 計\. 49,980, \2,000/話 NEP. ファイ・ブレイン 神のパズル (Phi Brain)
全50話 全13巻 4クール 計\. 93,450, \1,869/話 BAV. 機動戦士ガンダムAGE
全24話 全08巻 2クール 計\. 40,320, \1,680/話 VAP .ちはやふる (Chihayafuru)

Looking at the price ranges around Horizon, I would definitely get Horizon given the bonuses that come with the BRs.

But yeah, I don't know how they decide the prices of the top 3 on that list. The difference is pretty minuscule and probably not even worth mentioning, I just think it's interesting because previously I keep thinking Horizon's too expensive for some reason.

Originally Posted by Aoi Toori

btw that link by Xacual was hillarious, oh the difference..

Hilarious and sadddddd because I think some people just get the fastest one <__<.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Megami December issue.



P.S - No large image yet

Meanwhile at Nyantype



Both Masazumi. Care meter (for anyone other than Kimi, Naomasa, Gin) = 0.

[Aoi Toori]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Hilarious and sadddddd because I think some people just get the fastest one <__<.

agreed, and that has mislead many people about the story, saying that this anime are only for boobs and butts.