The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 7]

[Eak]

Good thing is.. don't have to wait for sub groups! Just watch the raws!

[TehSanity]

Will it end? I'm getting crazy.

Ep 1:
Ep 2:
Ep 3:
Ep 4:
Ep 5:
Ep 6:
Ep 7:

[quigonkenny]

I wonder why people are so curious as to why K&K are making these episodes so similar instead of just going Higurashi on us and really shaking it up each episode (not killing anyone, but shaking it up enough that it's not sharing roughly 20 minutes of airtime with the previous episode), with just enough similarity to keep the loop logically going. There are only two possible reasons why they would do that. One is that they've inserted something very subtle in the episodes that is gradually building toward some great "Coulda hadda V8" moment in the final episode where we all "get it." That obviously isn't happening, as none of the episodes have had anything in common except for the same events happening with random but ultimately meaningless differences. Two, and at this point pretty much guaranteed, is that they want to keep us watching until the last possible moment, as any change from the pattern will immediately signal a failure and people will tune out. This isn't some conspiracy theory; it's cold, hard logic. The only question is why. And the only logical answer to that is filler. Not Bleach/Naruto sleight-of-ass "claw out your eyes" bad filler, but (mostly) high-quality technically canon "claw out your eyes" boring filler. And we can only hope that the ultimate answer to the big question is "42". We can only hope...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Simply put, if handled right, this particular anime could have done loads of good for anime in general - it could have lifted the entire industry a la what Hulk Hogan did for pro wrestling in the 1980s...

Actually, strangely enough, that's the one thing I can say E8 has done for me, is getting me watching other things... ^_^ It's made me feel much better about the sometimes disappointing re-adaptation of FMA. Between ZSZS and the season's best show (by far) Bakemonogatari, SHAFT is now my go-to studio. I'm actually enjoying Umineko, much more than I did Higurashi, which I thought of as—get this—monotonous and repetitive at the time, due to Higurashi's concurrent run with the then vastly superior Haruhi. And if it hadn't been for my quest for something—anything—new, there's no way I would have ever started watching Needless, which is just so far over the top that I can turn off my brain and laugh at it as much as with it. While I can't say that E8 has reawakened my love for anime (it never really went to sleep), it has certainly helped my appreciation for other anime... Keikaku doori, Kadokawa... Keikaku doori...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And this is why Haruhi has, as people have been saying, jumped the shark.

Jumped the shark, then turned around, put on their best chum-flavored speedos, hopped into the shark tank, and are currently wagging their ass at the great toothy bastard.

Whatever. I don't get it. The point can't be to feel how Yuki does, because factoring in the average fan patience with Yuki's, that was well over and done before the third episode. It can't be to feel how Kyon does, because while he knows it's up to him, we also know it's not up to us. All they had to do was give us the first, NO END episode, then the first REVEAL episode (let's use #2 for that one with a pre-15,498 number), then a MINDFUCK the fans episode (#5 numbered #15,498), then the FINALE. You don't need to keep the fans guessing, because they will eventually get tired of it and move along.

Case in point:

I not going to bother sticking around to see how (or whether) they get out of the shark tank. I'm out for now. E8 is over as far as I'm concerned. I'll be back for Sigh, but if there's some great mysterious Reason behind their machinations, I'll let the rest of you figure it out. I'll still DL the a.f.k. subs (as long as they keep them up) and maybe the Mazuis if they're there and there's nothing else on. I might even watch them. And of course I'll pop in the forum every once in a while to offer a nugget of (non-E8) wisdom, but as for following it like I have been, it's sayonara. Looking over the last few pages, it appears I'm probably the second-to-last rational fan left here, and all that's left are those who are here for the lulz, those here for the trollz, those too far gone into the fandom to notice when it's time to move on, and those who don't really have a choice and are trying to make the best of it (sometimes modding sucks, eh, Relentless?). Turn off the light when you leave, eh, Kaisos?

Don't bother locking up, though. We'll be back.

[Midonin]

Wasn't the original jump the shark moment identified 20 years after it actually happened?

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

What sort of "rational defense" could there be? They're doing this because they can, because it's different, and because it messes with people's expectations. It does in fact have the side-benefit of making us experience Yuki's frustration, but does that mean this is the only way they could have conveyed this? Of course not. They had all their episode directors take their own turn animating the same basic script, which is why although they're the same, each episode turned out a bit differently. That's really it. It's not as if there's some sort of "trick" that makes it anything other than what it is or will somehow make it "okay" for you. My main point is that I don't see why people are freaking out, because I don't see how this is such a "fatal wound". That's really it, I guess. I'm not trying to "defend the show".

I agree that it probably is not a fatal wound and that people are expressing rage rather than accurately expressing their objections. I tried by best to at least approach this calmly. I will not concern myself with the future of Haruhi, but only with Endless Eight. I think it is in itself an unsuccessful work because:

1) There is not enough variation of emphasis and imagery between iterations to make make each individual episode an engaging viewing experience, for me at least.

2) Messing with people's expectation's only works once. That is to say, when this is over, the effect will be lost.

3) A better work could have been made by editing out some/most of the repetitions

As for the fan response, I don't see how it could be unexpected. Even if one doesn't fear for the future of the series and will return gladly when Endless Eight is over (I count myself as such), one can quite reasonably wish that what was presented as a "second season", or at period in which new material would be produced, had not turned out to be what amounts to an experiment along the lines of the Theater of Cruelty.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

And the only logical answer to that is filler. Not Bleach/Naruto sleight-of-ass "claw out your eyes" bad filler, but (mostly) high-quality technically canon "claw out your eyes" boring filler.

Fudge that, man. The Bount arc was Shakespeare compared to this.

[CrowKenobi]

But, it hasn't been presented as a "second season," just a re-airing of the first (with new eps to fill in the gaps)...

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

But, it hasn't been presented as a "second season," just a re-airing of the first (with new eps to fill in the gaps)...

Sigh...I get that. I've just written "'second season' or whatever you want to call it" too many times. Yeah, they didn't call it a "second season", but you know, an re-airing with new episodes is still pretty damn close to a second season.

[Jenni]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

The Moties of trapped in an endless recursion of their cycle of overpopulation, total war and societal collapse much like we are stuck with endlessly repeating cycles of Endless 8. I thought it was somewhat similar.

Also, you win one free internet for catching the reference.

That's a surprisingly good analogy. The question is... will these cycles destroy Haruhi like they did the Moties?

[madblade]

Seriously, who's the retard on the staff that said this would be a good idea?

[Forever]

We can start taking bets on whether the next episode will end or not.

Odds/Payout:
Next episode to end: 6.5
Next episode not to end: 1.27
Next episode to skip the arc: 8.7
Kyoani burned down, no next episode: 9.5

This is truly testing the fanbase. I await the day where haruhi gets a perfect 1 rating. Has haruhi already broken animesuki records for worse rated episode ever?

Sub-conscious Haruhi is truly omega fail. How can anyone reload 15000+ in love-sim game and still dont get the best ending.

[Ithekro]

Maybe she's not playing the love-sim game.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Forever

How can anyone reload 15000+ in love-sim game and still dont get the best ending.

Ask Tanigawa, he's the one who came up with the 15,498 number.

[Ice Block]

Whoa! Why did so many people turn stupid all of a sudden? Kadokawa is rich. You cannot possibly comprehend their richness, so don't even think you could understand their motives. Take the hint: they don't need any more money for season 2, they have more than enough. Economical crisis? Stop thinking too much... do you even understand the fine details of the effects it has on Japan's economy, specifically the animation market? If you do, link statistics and enlighten us, please.

And stop making the 3-year wait such a big deal. Many gamers have been waiting for StarCraft 2 for almost a decade. I won't even mention Duke Nukem Forever (and there's Total Annihilation, but at least Supreme Commander can be considered its spiritual successor, but still it lacks the OTA feel).

Man, how many times should the same thought be rephrased to make people grasp their powerlessness? E8's definitely getting to our heads.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Forever

Sub-conscious Haruhi is truly omega fail. How can anyone reload 15000+ in love-sim game and still dont get the best ending.

Well, from her sub-conscious perspective, she's only making the decision to reload once, over and over again.

This whole story is a bit silly when you think about it because there's no reason to believe that they'd ever break out of the loop. Even if the characters started second-guessing themselves, there's no saying that they haven't done that every previous time they've tried. You can't introduce "variation" when you don't know what the baseline is, and even if you keep trying the silliest thing you can think of, people aren't naturally all that random or unpredictable. Kyon would probably just "randomly" choose the same thing every time, as we're seeing here. Why wouldn't he? In every other similar story I can think of, the person with the memory takes steps to lead people in the right direction. You can't just wait for the universe's natural random quotient to find a solution, and if the show ends up portraying Kyon suddenly up and deciding to do something about it, that's pretty unrealistic (unless given a special nudge, he should just keep on making the same decision -- once you've reached this many failed attempts, wouldn't you just assume that it's hopeless?). So anyway, yeah... it's probably heresy, but it seems to me like the whole premise for the episode is a bit weird to begin with, and the way they've "exploited" it in the anime is, in an odd way, consistent with the premise even if it's less entertaining than a well-placed deviation could have been. Funny how that works...

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

and those who don't really have a choice and are trying to make the best of it (sometimes modding sucks, eh, Relentless?).

Well, I appreciate that you've given me a category ( ), but I should say that I'm not by any means forced to be here, though I did find that this forum was a bit undermoderated in the last few years. I generally have avoided episode threads in series sub-forums like the plague, because I've always perceived them to be too narrow-focused and prone to knee-jerk over-reactions and a lack of a deep well-considered thought. I can't say that I've exactly proven my belief wrong, but I did decide that I should at least try to contribute something in another direction. Don't know if helps or hurts in the end, but oh well...

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Man, how many times should the same thought be rephrased to make people grasp their powerlessness? E8's definitely getting to our heads.

I've tried, man, I've tried... it doesn't seem to work too well...

[rook_]

Originally Posted by madblade

Seriously, who's the retard on the staff that said this would be a good idea?

This. I am saddened.

not particularly mad at any one person, just saddened the way this has turned out. Just imagine if the rest of the episodes are good--even at that if you come back to re-watch this series you'll want to skip all the E8 episodes.

So uh, anyone know if they'll be an actual S2, and do you know if it won't suck?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by RookTM

even at that if you come back to re-watch this series you'll want to skip all the E8 episodes.

I won't!

[Lvrhina]

Going to be waaaay off topic.

The only benefit of endless eight is... goin to make an amazing doujin.

Just think about it, the days keep reoccurring until you "please haruhi" right.

[Voitan]

Originally Posted by Lvrhina

Going to be waaaay off topic.

The only benefit of endless eight is... goin to make an amazing doujin.

Just think about it, the days keep reoccurring until you "please haruhi" right.

If that's the case, then "pleasing Haruhi" would be the last thing I'd want to do (actually, never attempt) if I had meta-knowledge of the situation.

[Dr. Casey]

The Mazui subs are out. In several respects, I have to give the sixth iteration of Endless Eight a lot of credit.

- The art and animation is the best this arc has seen since the original Endless Eight, hands down. The camera angles were more dynamic than normal (The pan over Kyon's little start at the start being a good example), and the settings were tweaked much more in their appearance this time around, so it felt surprisingly fresh for being the sixth version of this episode.
- Kyon being more emotive than normal this time around was entertaining. I don't remember him ever yelping or squealing like he does in this episode. XD
- The big reveal was done very well in this one. The front angle shot of Yuki around the 18:30 mark in particular is sinister somehow. The only version of this scene that's truly been creepy and conveyed that feeling of being hit with a ton of bricks was the original in Endless Eights 2, but objectively speaking I think 6 might be Kyoto Animation's best take on the scene yet.
- Kyon's dialogue during the scene has me intrigued. "There it is again! Deja vu! And with a strength I hadn't felt until now." A strength he hasn't felt before now? Hmm. That strength wasn't enough to call out to Haruhi, but this is an interesting development. I expect good things from Endless Eight 7, even if Kyon once again fails to break the loop.

So, Endless Eight continues to work for me as deep immersion, and it helps that I was a big fan of the original to begin with; Endless Eight I might have been my favorite Haruhi episode ever. I'm still kind of annoyed, though, so I'm voting a 1 anyway.

[chinaboat]

This latest was the first one I've really like in several weeks and I've voted accordingly - maybe I'm just numb but wasn't the art almost totally different? (colors, settings, etc) I know the totally unexpected site of Mikuru sitting with the towel on her face after getting slammed with the ball was the first time I've really laughed in awhile.

I dunno, maybe I'm just getting loopy (pun intended) but I really enjoyed this one.

Also, does the fact that the series name hasn't changed seem to mean anything?

(Thanks, RR, for the Mote reference it made me smile. A SF Book Club main selection in '74, I still have my copy)