Ukrainian Conflict

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Not to mention, it wasn't the Americans. Among the flags raised during the Maidan in defiance of Yanukovych, no star-spangled banners were to be seen. What inspired was the European Union flag. Will Germany take responsibility? Will you ask me why should you?

Indeed, American involvement is tangentially at best. It is fascinating that The EU and Germany/France somehow get ignored and pro-Russian propaganda attack the unrelated United States instead.

Is it because the US is a big easy target? And that it is far harder to make the EU the evil monster, because they haven't started any wars lately?

I see the blame piled on America as a literal distraction. Russia know they would lose the argument if they try to make the mud stick on EU. America has done many bad things, and still do them to this day, and that's why they are now being accused of what they didn't do. But you should not charge a criminal for a crime he didn't actually commit, that's just not how it works.

[Wigwams]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Indeed, American involvement is tangentially at best. It is fascinating that The EU and Germany/France somehow get ignored and pro-Russian propaganda attack the unrelated United States instead.

Is it because the US is a big easy target? And that it is far harder to make the EU the evil monster, because they haven't started any wars lately?

I see the blame piled on America as a literal distraction. Russia know they would lose the argument if they try to make the mud stick on EU. America has done many bad things, and still do them to this day, and that's why they are now being accused of what they didn't do. But you should not charge a criminal for a crime he didn't actually commit, that's just not how it works.

russia blaming the US didnt start with the ukraine crisis.

russia started blaming US for every bad thing happening to russia since the protests vs putin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2...ssian_protests

its just a continuation of putin's strategy of creating an imaginary enemy in the form of the "evil west". nothing unites a nation like an external foe afterall.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

In short, you are so eager to be anti-American that you ignore the relative lack of importance and influence the Americans have over events in Ukraine?

Excuse me? I am as anti US as I am anti German or anti Eu or anti Russian. I may not be as deluded and nationalistic (as in blindly believing everything ruling elites say).

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I swear, they could launch a massive rescue operation to save twenty thousand Yazidis from genocide tomorrow and you people would start asking questions why they re-invaded Iraq or something.

Swear what you want, but the lack of background knowledge in everything eastern Europe does not make your Yazidi-rescue strawman a credible argument for east european politics.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

So the American-delivered rhetoric of freedom -- tainted as it is by the actual actions or lack thereof of the American government -- still gathers hearts and minds in corrupt, oppressed countries. Ergo, when people rise up and challenge existing regimes, it's the Americans' fault for not supporting them, and the Americans' fault if they support them. K.

See, this is precisely my point you clearly defend a buzzword "freedom" no matter the cost and consenquences.
Freedom is completely subjective. According to the US doctrine a country would be more free, the closer it opperates with the US. So, how much freedom have the people gained in the Ukraine?
Especially in East Ukraine, who are now closer to Russia, while the west Ukraine is closer to the EU/US. In terms of actual, measurable freedom both sides gained very little. This was never about freedom, this was about foreign interests in the Ukraine. The problem is, that all this cost simply too many civilian lives. The people in the former East Germany could rid themselves from a similarily surpressive regime without all that death. Fortunately they were not as much a subject of international block headedness back then.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Not to mention, it wasn't the Americans. Among the flags raised during the Maidan in defiance of Yanukovych, no star-spangled banners were to be seen. What inspired was the European Union flag. Will Germany take responsibility? Will you ask me why should you?

I will not repeat my comments about the US interference in the case. Please read my other posts on the topic, they are very recently, so you do not have to go too far back in this thread. If you want to discuss a specific topic other then someone waving a flag, then you are welcome to do that. If anything, that would only hint to, that nobody was asking the US to meddle with the affairs in Ukraine.

However, (as I said before) I just hope this will cost Germany, the EU, the US and Russia dearly in economic terms. I am not that delusioned to believe, that the EU, Germany, the US or Russia is getting any reprimands from the international community for their involvement in Ukraine.
But in a sense of their collective block headedness they impose those sanctions to inflict this by themselves on each other.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Well yes. Having the finger in your arch rival's pie is certainly a clever move.

I thought the pie was Ukraine's.

Does it really matter that much who brings the gas and who brings the lighter?

Gerhard Schröder certainly didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Is it because the US is a big easy target? And that it is far harder to make the EU the evil monster, because they haven't started any wars lately?

I see the blame piled on America as a literal distraction.

It is a distraction, but it's not so much because it's an easy target, but because it's a worthy one. In the sense that Russia doesn't respect the EU because they assume they can always use divide and conquer (the latter not literally) and payoff tactics there. Europe is the place to go to shop, live the good life and educate your children; it is not a threat - it's Gayropa, it doesn't have the balls. But standind up against America makes you big and important in the world, and that feels good to the lay folk in front of their TV screens who are yearning for the Soviet era feeling of authority. It's so much easier to cheer the fight against America and the "ukrofashists" never having to leave your couch than face the reality of corruption and decay in your own country and do something about it. So Putin gets his all-important 85% support figures.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by yononaka

I thought the pie was Ukraine's.

Yes, and because every super power regards their immediate neighbours with that much respect, they do allow them to e.g. have nuclear weapons, as in the case of Cuba. This is a circular argument that will lead nowhere.

Originally Posted by yononaka

Gerhard Schröder certainly didn't think so.

You just have to believe me, when I say that I am not Gerhard Schröder. And that I do not care about what Gerhard Schröder's opinion is on the matter (he can have his opinion, and I have mine).

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

No, you are, and you need to stop that.

Call me back when Kiev starts gassing Donetsk.

So we now will just assume that Damacus gassed Ghouta? Also Cheonan was sunk by North Korea?

Whatever you believe in man. We know above discussion going nowhere


And why should we put the blame on the US? Isn't it obvious? The CIA has been in close contact with Kiev since this whole thing started. The only organisation historically showed to again and again stage coup against legitimate foreign governments and change their foreign policy (include spark up regional conflict) in the name of US interest. Which was such a coincidence that Ukraine current situation was one as such.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Yes, and because every super power regards their immediate neighbours with that much respect, they do allow them to e.g. have nuclear weapons, as in the case of Cuba. This is a circular argument that will lead nowhere.

Well, if you see this as a situation where the US was on the brink of placing nuclear weapons aimed at Russia on Ukrainian soil, then this will certainly lead nowhere.

You just have to believe me, when I say that I am not Gerhard Schröder. And that I do not care about what Gerhard Schröder's opinion is on the matter (he can have his opinion, and I have mine).

How about Putin's opinions then? I mean specifically about his right to do whatever in Ukraine which isn't a real country anyway and would never move away from Russia for its own reasons without heavy-handed US interference. And OMG US nukes on Ukrainian soil aimed straight at his head! (Who cares that the US was in the process of drawing down in Europe and moving it's attention elsewhere before the Crimea affair happened.)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

And why should we put the blame on the US? Isn't it obvious? The CIA has been in close contact with Kiev since this whole thing started. The only organisation historically showed to again and again stage coup against legitimate foreign governments and change their foreign policy (include spark up regional conflict) in the name of US interest. Which was such a coincidence that Ukraine current situation was one as such.

The fact that you automatically assume Germany and the whole of the EU has nothing to do with it is, truly, fascinating.

It's almost like the EU doesn't exist.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The fact that you automatically assume Germany and the whole of the EU has nothing to do with it is, truly, fascinating.

It's almost like the EU doesn't exist.

I didn't mention anything about the EU isn't it.

Just stated that US involvement is clear. Does not means they are the only one

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by yononaka

Well, if you see this as a situation where the US was on the brink of placing nuclear weapons aimed at Russia on Ukrainian soil,

I do not.

Originally Posted by yononaka

then this will certainly lead nowhere.

I am happy that you agree with me.

Originally Posted by yononaka

How about Putin's opinions then? I mean specifically about his right to do whatever in Ukraine which isn't a real country anyway and would never move away from Russia for its own reasons without heavy-handed US interference.

I do not care about anyone's opinion but the Ukraine's when it comes to matters of Ukraine. Furthermore, I do not judge opinions but irresponsible action.

Originally Posted by yononaka

And OMG US nukes on Ukrainian soil aimed straight at his head!

Thats not what I said, or was it? Maybe an misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by yononaka

(Who cares that the US was in the process of drawing down in Europe and moving it's attention elsewhere before the Crimea affair happened.)

I do not really care where the US, the EU, Russia or Germany move their attention, as long as they do not deliberately put human lifes at risk, to simply increase their sphere of influence.
The difference is, that I do not see the US, the EU or Germany as heroes and Russia as villain, because in my oppinion they are all acting more or less equally irresponsibly here. So, if anything, you can blame me for being equally anti EU, anti Germany, anti Russia and anti US in that matter. The only reason why I have to appear so anti US here, is that I have to defend my anti US stance for whatever reason. But nobody questions my anti EU, anti Germany or anti Russia stance.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I didn't mention anything about the EU isn't it.

Just stated that US involvement is clear. Does not means they are the only one

That's what I mean, that you entirely disrtegard the EU as if it is of no consequence, when ALL the actual evidence points to the EU being the main Western influence in the area.

America has its fingers in many pies, that's true. But if you claim that America is the main Western force influencing Ukraine, then you are, unfortunately, delusional.

If you don't want to admit that the EU is the people Putin is opposing, but instead try to blame the US just because you want to, then you haven't been paying attention to anything that's been going on.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Isn't it obvious? The CIA has been in close contact with Kiev since this whole thing started.

Since the whole thing started? Could you elaborate on that a bit?

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's what I mean, that you entirely disrtegard the EU as if it is of no consequence, when ALL the actual evidence points to the EU being the main Western influence in the area.

America has its fingers in many pies, that's true. But if you claim that America is the main Western force influencing Ukraine, then you are, unfortunately, delusional.

If you don't want to admit that the EU is the people Putin is opposing, but instead try to blame the US just because you want to, then you haven't been paying attention to anything that's been going on.

How's about: both EU and US are the main Western influence in Ukraine?

Ever thought about that?

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Jinto

I do not.

Then why bring Cuba into it (in that way)?

I do not care about anyone's opinion but the Ukraine's when it comes to matters of Ukraine. Furthermore, I do not judge opinions but irresponsible action.

And you apparently equate political maneuvering with military aggression in your judgement. But at least it's good that you allow Ukraine some room for its own decisions that aren't predicated on someone else's meddling.

I do not really care where the US, the EU, Russia or Germany draw their attention, as long as they do not deliberately put human lifes at risk, to simply increase their sphere of influence.
The difference is, that I do not see the US, the EU or Germany as heroes and Russia as villain, because in my oppinion they are all acting more or less equally irresponsibly here. So, if anything, you can blame me for being equally anti EU, anti Germany, anti Russia and anti US in that matter. The only reason why I have to appear so anti US here, is that I have to defend my anti US stance for whatever reason. But nobody questions my anti EU, anti Germany or anti Russia stance.

Yes, if the premise is to equate political maneuvering with military intervention (declared or not) and annexation of parts of another country then for sure they "are all acting more or less equally irresponsibly here", I agree.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

How's about: both EU and US are the main Western influence in Ukraine?

Ever thought about that?

Nope, you are still trying to sideline the EU, which is ridiculous; EU membership was the reason this got started. I don't buy it, you should actually start going back to the beginning and find out why Russia took the seaport. And it has NOTHING to do with the United States.

Attacking America might seem fun to you, but since that require you to completely disregard the reality of the situation in Ukraine, you are not making sense.

To not want to talk about EU or Germany is to completely fabricate what the war is about.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Nope, you are still trying to sideline the EU, which is ridiculous; EU membership was the reason this got started. I don't buy it, you should actually start going back to the beginning and find out why Russia took the seaport. And it has NOTHING to do with the United States.

Attacking America might seem fun to you, but since that require you to completely disregard the reality of the situation in Ukraine, you are not making sense.

To not want to talk about EU or Germany is to completely fabricate what the war is about.

You are being ridiculous.

By not addressing EU when I accused US involvement in Ukraine, that was counted me in as "attacking America" and " sideline the EU" involvement?

Mind you, I also didn't address Russia, the rebel, or Ukraine itself. Does not mean I do not believe in their involvement over this issue

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

You are being ridiculous.

By not addressing EU when I accused US involvement in Ukraine, that was counted me in as "attacking America" and " sideline the EU" involvement?

Mind you, I also didn't address Russia, the rebel, or Ukraine itself. Does not mean I do not believe in their involvement over this issue

This post from you:

[...]The only organisation historically showed to again and again stage coup against legitimate foreign governments and change their foreign policy (include spark up regional conflict) in the name of US interest. Which was such a coincidence that Ukraine current situation was one as such.

made it sound like it was all just one grand CIA scheme while the "other players" are just side-shows. But it is the exact opposite, i.e. if the US is involved, their inolvment in this case is rather small and is most likely no more than that of an observational role this time, as long as there is nothing that has potential to be a huge threat to the US.

Of course over time their involvment may have increased, escpacially once russia became active, but even then it did not amount to much.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

This post from you:



made it sound like it was all just one grand CIA scheme while the "other players" are just side-shows. But it is the exact opposite, i.e. if the US is involved, their inolvment in this case is rather small and is most likely no more than that of an observational role this time, as long as there is nothing that has potential to be a huge threat to the US.

Eh, no. Like the 1953 Iran coup d'e tat. It has both the CIA and MI6's involvement. The CIA not always if ever working alone.

But also does not negate the fact that they are known by fact for starting coup, regional conflict, and flip in national foreign policy. Which is Ukraine situation right now


And did you look at the involvement of CIA around the globe for the last century? How many of them are "huge threat" to the US?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

And did you look at the involvement of CIA around the globe for the last century? How many of them are "huge threat" to the US?

Anyone who hates the US is the threat to the US. Duh.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Anyone who hates the US is the threat to the US. Duh.

Damn you, laughed till my side hurts now...

Post these in "A laugh a day". Damn it