2010-08-17, 17:29 | Link #261 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I read through 1 and 2 recently, and I generally felt like an idiot looking at all of the things that were hints and I didn't catch onto... practically every scene had a moment which figuratively slapped me in the face. I'll probably try reading through the series again after I give 7 another go through and let everyone sit on ideas for a couple weeks.
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2010-08-17, 17:33 | Link #262 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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No one ever looked in the closet so it was very easy to get out other episodes also reveal that the stake shooting device battler mentions doesn't exist. Gouging a gunhole is enough to put the stake in as deep as descibed. Otherwise they would have to use a hammer... Everything else would probably violate Knox Rules. Edit: Not to mention the fact that EP 1 had an unknown number X of Masterkeys. In fact, every single person on the island could have a master key, simply by borrowing it from the seven sisters. |
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2010-08-17, 17:39 | Link #263 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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*goes back into hiding*
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2010-08-17, 17:54 | Link #265 | ||
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Join Date: May 2009
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And also, what's with all the white knighting for the veracity of a story steeped in the influence of quite possibly the single most loathsome and untrustworthy person in the entire series? Quote:
We are then asked to like a shallow caricature who never existed in the episodes supposedly needed to "solve" the mystery, are blatantly and openly mocked for our inability to insinuate such things, and are then effectively told that none of the characters we actually started liking from the start really amount to much. Kyrie and Eva are lucky to come out of things with additional characterization at all. This character twists other characters into meaningless illusions or shallow mentally disturbed hypocrites who blame other people for their kindness. We're shown a very down to earth, subdued, human Kinzo then asked to conclude he's an incestuous rapist madman. And every time we're asked to justify these characterizations, we feedback-loop back onto the very same premises we were told we must believe in, not because the solid evidence for them allows us to reach no other conclusion, but because things that sound similar must be similar. Well, I'm not going to do that.
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2010-08-17, 18:05 | Link #266 |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Uh there was a crack theory I thought of that Shkanon hints have been in play since EP1. I mean, Battler never got to use detective's authority on Shkanon's breasts. He got smacked by Jessica right before that happened. The boobs could be fake, and we have no clues either for or against it :/
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2010-08-17, 18:07 | Link #267 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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There's lots of moments in ep1 and ep2 where the adults pretty much guess exactly the sorts of things ep7 suggests.
The problem is that this, if true, isn't really "amazing hints from the start" but "the answer from the start, however implausible." It's like if a murder mystery had all the characters running around saying "Goodness, I wonder of Colonel Billings is the killer?" And then the ending is... Colonel Billings is the killer. Was that really a mystery? It doesn't seem like the characters were all that surprised.
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2010-08-17, 18:10 | Link #268 | |||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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I dunno, it seems you are discrediting this game just because Bernkastel is involved in there. Does it make any sense for a character to have their twisted fun to actually put false stuff, despite she needs Will to expose the truth? How about the fact the clues were said confirmed? I think it is "perhaps" better to consider each game of the puzzle. It isn't even about the characters, but about the storytelling. Why would Ryukishi makes a so "flawed" kakera and using the "so worst character" as you describe then? It has a meaning and it certainly went more smoothly than "people playing dead for some reason" with Lambda and Battler. Keep in mind that Bern is solely affecting the possible presentation and interpretation. Facts are not affected by it. I see little point to just claim "it is trash" when it does tie with a lot of things from the previous episodes. Fan sitching technique? Who knows, but it is arguably noteworthy to have a look. Quote:
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If you were that disappointed, feel free to say so. But declaring "this is crap" as if it was a fact really doesn't rub me well, and I don't think I'm the only one here. You may feel dejected, but your tantrum really is getting insulting. Quote:
If you see that as a cop oup, suit yourself. but don't push your frustration on others, as if they were idiots.
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2010-08-17, 18:15 | Link #270 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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And given what we heard Bernkastel say outright at the end of ep6, I'm not sure why we aren't to take this as at least partially speculative itself. Sorry that asking uncomfortable questions that challenge the purity of the narrative presented is a "tantrum," but I think questions need to be asked, because parts of the narrative require leaps of faith I see no justification to make.
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2010-08-17, 18:16 | Link #271 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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In a way, that's the toughest kind of mystery to write. To shove the killer right in the readers' face and still manage to trick them.
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2010-08-17, 18:19 | Link #272 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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It just feels like a very flat revelation. It's not like anybody did a whole heck of a lot to confound the adults' claims in prior episodes. We got magic scenes, sure, but people were critical of those from the start.
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2010-08-17, 18:23 | Link #273 | |||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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I dunno what you exactly read, but from the very start, it was only Willard's investigation, not a "let me show you what is the truth without any subjective point". It is all about Willard trying to piece everything out from his point of view and knowledge. Why do you assume "we have to assume" it is true? The fact they are core arcs showing clues and answers doesn't mean everything is shown at face value. I really see no damn reason to think this way: being presented characters speculations and their supposed theories doesn't mean you have to blindly follow them. As far as I see, the game is unfolding points that can be accepted or not. That's the same as a majority of people raving about a popular theory: it doesn't mean you have to follow them. I really see no fault from the game/narration side regarding that matter. The game is trying to go back to its root, and the lakc of red and blue allow to have a moderate take on things and facts, instead of cherrypicking specific portions because of special features. Quote:
The fact the clues were all presented? That surely is the same as Beato pouring clues with some overdrive witch festival. Quote:
No one has ever claimed the narrative is perfect. It "makes" sense as per its content and its purpose. That doesn't mean it is the holy grail or the "golden truth".
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2010-08-17, 18:31 | Link #275 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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2010-08-17, 18:31 | Link #276 | |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Did anyone translate that video? |
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2010-08-17, 18:33 | Link #277 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I pretty much agree with everything Klashikari has said so far. I think most people won't throw away episode 7 just because the game master is Bernkastel.
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http://tool-4.net/?id=umineko&pn=17 I don't know who made that theory but they deserve a a pat on the back.
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2010-08-17, 18:52 | Link #280 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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The write really doesn't have the responsibility to offer all possible narration directions. Even with a multi arc tale like umineko, it would take a sizable amount of similar/clone arcs to have all possible perspective. So I wonder how you can cope a clean cut story like one of agatha christie, which is basically "linear" to be plain.
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