2012-08-24, 23:52 | Link #201 | ||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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However, consider this. If you force guns "underground," fewer guns will be produced. The black market will continue to produce their own and they may even expand a bit, but gun production would decrease. With a decreased production of guns, fewer people will have guns. The less people who have guns, the less gun crime there will be. Obviously, in order for this to work the ban would need to be nation-wide. Quote:
Yet in suburban to urban environments, neighbors and bystanders (who admittedly aren't always going to jump in to help) are much more readily available, as are the police. Having a gunfight in those types of areas will incite panic and can cause injury from stray shots. Such is what seems to have happened here, in yet another shooting incident, this time in New York City (2 dead, 9 wounded). A man fired on the police, and many were injured by stray shots. (I suppose the conservative response will be "they should have trained more; people with better shooting skills wouldn't have those problems." Yeah, whatever; get real, please.) On the topic of "I don't want to be told how to live," there are certain times when an individual's desires should be curtailed. For example, most Americans don't want to be told how to eat. Look at us: we're drowning in our obesity. If one person wants to eat themselves to death, I'd say that it's their business and their right. When the majority of the nation is doing it, it's a problem. It's a problem because it costs us in productivity and other areas of business, but most importantly, it costs us in our healthcare. Obesity leads to a host of other health problems. It costs money to treat all of that, which puts a strain on insurance companies. It also takes up resources to treat those issues, which means medical personnel time and hospital space taken up by people who couldn't control themselves that could have otherwise been used by people with other health issues. In other words, because many people didn't want to listen to advice and guidelines about eating and exercising, our entire healthcare system (and other areas of our society) is going to be strained. That's a system that we all rely on. You tell me what you would prefer: the collapse of the healthcare system, or stricter mandates on what people can and can't eat. Neither option is appealing, but I'll tell you that I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat. How does that relate to guns? Simple: the more guns are around, the greater the chance that I or someone I love will cross paths with someone who loses it and decides to use their guns against others. Is it right that law-abiding, sane gun owners should be punished for the actions of a few deranged individuals? No, of course not. In a perfect world, people who misbehaved would simply have their guns taken away, and everyone else would not be punished. But the world isn't perfect. From a selfish perspective that concerns only me and mine, the way I see it, the benefits of limiting guns outweigh the downsides.
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2012-08-25, 09:05 | Link #202 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Also, more police doesn't mean anything other than there would be more people to clean up the mess afterwards, police forces by nature is reactionary, they can't be everywhere all the time. In high population area this becomes even worse, as the police department has to deal with extremely high workloads, which often leads to situations where even urgent calls are overlooked/ignored, like that Dallas women who called 911 screaming for help, yet nothing happened, and her relatives had to kick down her door and discover her rotting body two days later. In places like Detroit, many people don't even bother calling the police, as they aren't going to show up 'til at least a hour later anyway, if at all. Quote:
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I just happen to land on the other side of the line from you :P |
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2012-08-25, 09:27 | Link #203 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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If people delay in calling 911 it's more down to shock then anything else. Likewise people will only hesitate to involve themselves because they have no idea what to do (and are afraid themselves). Fundamentally, 90% of the population will always try to do the right thing. |
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2012-08-25, 10:05 | Link #204 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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like this http://onemansblog.com/2010/04/25/ne...-over-an-hour/ or this: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...ns-pic-1188379 Are there people out there who would rush out and help? of course there is, but they are the exception rather than the norm, and many tend to default to the "well, someone else will do something about this" mentality and do nothing - it's called the Diffusion of Responsibility, not exactly a new concept. also, I'd like to see what study or survey or any sort of empirical study that you based your 90% claim on |
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2012-08-25, 14:37 | Link #205 | |||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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The culture may change eventually. I hope that it does. Quote:
It doesn't matter that the stray shots were derived from the police. It goes to show that in a very crowded area, the risk of injuring or killing uninvolved parties is very high. I think this is just common sense: with more people around, the chance of stray shots (or fragments from stray shots) to hit unintended targets increases. As I mentioned before, the people who feel that the best solution is to equip everyone with a gun might have something that works for a small, sparsely-populated community. Once you get into places with a higher population density, that sort of proposition seems like a very bad idea. Quote:
Regarding regulations, life isn't black and white. Society's regulations are all based around grey zones. We have speed limits and rules of the road, as opposed to offering a choice of either banning people from driving or allowing roads to be a free-for-all. We allow biological experiments to occur and even allow limited human testing (with consent), but have banned certain "ethically sensitive" areas such as aspects of embryonic stem cell research; it is again not the case that society decided between stopping all research, or allowing all research with zero regulations. As such, why are you going from "ban guns" to "monitor everyone"? Could such a slide occur? Yes. Could we have a state where everyone monitored (or worse) and guns are still legal? Absolutely. Where do you draw the line? I don't like absolutes, but I also like cost-benefit analyses. Here's an example. What are some of the benefits of removing speed limits from roads? People could drive what ever speed they were comfortable with, decreasing their travel time; people with powerful vehicles could derive full enjoyment from those vehicles by going as fast as possible. What are some of the risks of removing speed limits from roads? Extremely high-speed collisions would result in greater risk of death and grave injuries; such collisions would become more likely with greater disparities between travelers' speeds; there's a greater risk of people losing control of their vehicles by overestimating their handling capacity; at extremely high speeds, vehicles may fly off of roads and cause injury and damage to people and structures along roads (can be rectified by building walls or greater guard rails alongside roads, but that's going to cost a lot of money). Do the benefits outweigh the risks? No. We can discuss raising the speed limits in some areas, but outright removal of speed limits would not be worth it. How about guns? What are the benefits of allowing guns to be purchased? Recreational use (hunting, sport shooting); collector's items for some; personal protection or protection of property (particularly farms). What are some of the consequences? Potential for grave accidental injury; places easy killing capacity in the hands of the population (including the mentally unstable); capacity for wide-spread injury and death to be brought about by a single individual. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? I've been arguing 100% against guns in this thread for fun, but my personal opinion is that guns are warranted in certain areas (farms, rural communities). In areas with a high population density the consequences weigh much more heavily. It seems very strange to put that sort of destructive potential into people's hands in such environments. At the moment, I don't have any good solution to reconciling between rural and urban environments.
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2012-08-25, 18:23 | Link #206 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 46
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Second it's far easier to assemble your own AR-15 rifle from parts than you might think! A trip over too YouTube can verify that! Now you touched on obesity and how it goes with the gun "problem". It's more about lacksadaisely ideologies and "just don't wanna" attitudes that prevail here. With the proliferation of the Internet, and the ability to shop online, we no longer need to go out and roam stores and malls, thus getting a workout or just exercising. The trick to responsible gun handleing and shooting is TRAINING!!! I have taken two courses at Gunsite in Arizona, as well as a local concealed carry weapon class. I go to the range monthly and would like to go more often. As to the police in New York hitting bystanders, not all cops are professionals at there job! Some see it as a stepping stone to public office or as "just a job". I've talked to veteran police officers who say getting some of these guys to go to the range or even clean their weapons is like pulling teeth! Yet there are some very talented civilian shooters. If you could see the local IPSC competitors you'd know what I mean. Lastly a gunshot wound will send you too the hospital, a knife will send you too the hospital in pieces! Either one can kill you! |
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2012-08-25, 18:47 | Link #207 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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@kyp275: If most of us were so, then general opinion would hold that such actions were not immoral. If we can easily agree that something is immoral, then that means that 90% of people (or more) would think so too. If it was only 50%, then we wouldn't be sure if it's immoral (For instance, everyone thinks murder is immoral, and so very few will ever do it. Whereas for homosexuality there's more disagreement, so many do it with impunity). Generally speaking, pretty much everyone will help someone in need, because pretty much everyone is fundamentally moral. People do hesitate of course, but usually more due to being a "Deer in the headlights" then anything else. If you don't know how to respond, you'll often just do nothing. Such people aren't gleefully spectating. Quite the opposite in fact, they're shocked and afraid. |
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2012-08-25, 20:31 | Link #208 | ||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Says who? humans are neither fundamentally moral or immoral, as morality is a social construct that is learned after one is born. Quote:
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2012-08-25, 21:09 | Link #209 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Our innate moral sense is what allows us to form societies in the first place. Indeed, but if you read that, you'd see that people on their own are extremely likely to help other people. It's only in a crowd that they don't. To be fair, in a crowd it's very likely that someone will help. People might assume someone else has phoned 911, or that someone else there is more qualified to help out. Or they're too afraid to do anything, and choose to let someone else take the responsibility. But there isn't apathy involved, or joy at other people's suffering. |
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2012-08-25, 21:27 | Link #210 | ||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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What do you think we should do about it? Making the connection to guns involves a similar line of thought. If one unstable individual shoots off his gun inappropriately, it's a problem between him and his community. When multiple individuals are using their guns for purposes of harm and destruction all across the country, it's a problem for the entire country. It's unfortunate that you, as a responsible and law-abiding gun owner, would be penalized. But this isn't about you or how responsible you are - it's about everyone else. Quote:
Yes, either one can kill you. Which one can kill you more easily, and when wielded even by individuals who are weaker or slower than yourself? Are you really telling me that you would rather be assailed by a person with a gun than a person with a knife?
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2012-08-25, 22:16 | Link #211 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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There is also no concrete consensus on the root cause of socio/psychopathy. There are hints at genetic traits that predispose one to such conditions, but there are also very strong connection between adverse environment such as abuse or neglect during early childhood and those who develops psychopathic tendencies. These are basic stuff that are covered in just about every entry level sociology/criminology classes :/ Unlike other animals, humans are born as a blank slate with no instincts of any kind, but in it place we gain the ability to learn and modify our behavior, there's no behavior that is "innate" to humans, everything is learned. Quote:
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2012-08-25, 23:43 | Link #212 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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I don't have time to post my own comments so I'll leave this gentlmen's defense of gun ownership here for you to peruse.
"The Gun Is Civilization" By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret) Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some. When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly. Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation... And that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act. By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)
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2012-08-26, 00:22 | Link #213 | ||||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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While the author isn't incorrect in any of his statements, they're overly basic. For example: Quote:
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My guess is that the author of the quote, without realizing it, has revealed a bit of paranoia. He has made his statement without realizing that, with a gun, he has more force than the majority of Americans. Does he consider that he and other gun owners are exempt from his sweeping generalizations? He probably hasn't even considered it - instead, he's preoccupied with the fear that other people would try to subdue him. Quote:
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The issue he's responding to is the idea that guns increase the injuries and deaths sustained in confrontations. 1) He initially responds by again going on about force equalization, stating that victory would be won by the stronger party without guns. (Does not address anything about injury or death; once again appeals to people who feel fearful about being attacked) 2) He then tries to state that other weapons can be lethal as well. While true, this is really a distractor. 3) He finishes by once again returning to the idea of force equalization. I don't see why people have such a hard time admitting that a gun has much more destructive capacity than other weapons. We could even go into statistics and point out that there are more gun-related deaths than there are deaths by "fists, bats, sticks, or stones." Overall, not impressed.
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2012-08-26, 04:33 | Link #214 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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I'll address some of your response, but keep in mind I'm dead tired right now. Quote:
Says who? You? I firmly disagree with your opinion there. This man has addressed the arguments by hoplophobes head on. If they seem simplistic that is because the gun-banners aren't of a critical mind on this issue. Quote:
Really? Tell that to the families of the people killed by James Holmes. They were a mob in that theater and he was one person with a shotgun. If they had been armed, that would be a different matter, but they weren't because it was illegal to bring a firearm into theaters in Aurora. It was a "gun free zone." Society? No Legem actually "society" doesn't go after anyone, nor does it have any obligation to. That kind of wrong-thinking is part of the reason gun-control is so flawed. It stems from the erroneous notion that government is good, when history has proven beyond any doubt that it is not. Governments have killed more people than practically any other force on Earth. As Washington said, "it's like fire, and is both a dangerous servant and a fearful master." Your second major mistake is this idea that government has an obligation to protect you or bring justice on your behalf. In the US it doesn't as determined by the SCOTUS. That alone buries the argument you are attempting to make. Personal firearms are the only means of protection you have. As the saying goes, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Quote:
If both opponents are armed, then their chances are equalized. Quote:
It's the reason you pay your taxes, stop when a cop turns his lights on behind you, don't steal, and don't do a whole slew of other things. As Nietzsche said, "fear is the mother of morality." No dear, the military industrial complex does rule this country, and has since the 1950s. Why do you think our police use grenades, armored personnel carriers, machineguns, body armor, assault rifles, drones, and grenade launchers. They are no longer domestic police forces, they are internal military security units. That's what SWAT stands for: Special Weapons And Tactics. Hell we've got military forces patrolling our streets and at DUI checkpoints. Quote:
Sorry, that's a meme at this point it's so overused. No, this gentleman made excellent points that were spot on and detrimental to the hoplophobic argument. After all, the real fearmongers here are the ones screaming "OMG there are too many guns in the hands of citizens...eww I'm gonna die! If we could only reduce them by banning them." Which is the same mentality as those who think banning sodomy will reduce HIV/AIDS. Quote:
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If you are confronted by a person with superior strength, skill, or some combination thereof and you have nothing to equalize him with, you lose, end of story. Quote:
Bombs are far more deadly than a firearm. Machettes can be also, and knives at close range are as dangerous as a pistol. Every student of Martial Arts worth his Gi knows this. Quote:
A gun is your best defense against an armed attacker. However, it is a moot point since the 2nd Amendment isn't about just defense. It is an individual right to keep and bear military style arms, end of discussion. Quote:
There are more homicides by gangs than there are anything else with regard to murder. You want to reduce homcide? Reduce the number of gang bangers. Quote:
It reeks of whining, blubbering, and wimpering on and on about "why won't people just become victims so I can be safe from those evil guns...OOOOOH the humanity." SCOTUS has settled this issue when they made the ownership of arms an individual right, and when in Miller vs. US Scotus declared that only military arms are the type protected. That's it, game over, your side lost so stop crying about it. It's like the Christians that keep bitching about abortion, it's the law of the land so deal with it. The only thing left for public safety is mandatory training laws since those do conform to the 2nd Amendment. Now, after reading through all the posts since before my last one I can see this thread has run its course and thus a modus vivendi must be reached. I have to do this because I'm going to be very busy these next few months and don't know how often I can slip in here on the weekends. So at this point I have no choice but to agree to disagree on all points brought forward by the hoplophobes here. You hate guns? Fine, don't buy one, don't own one, but if you try to take away the right for others to have them, I will be there helping to stop you every step of the way.
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2012-08-26, 05:24 | Link #215 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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"Group size significantly influenced the likelihood of helping behavior in a staged emergency: 85% of participants responded with intervention when alone, 62% of participants took action when with one other person, and only 31% did when there were four other bystanders." That 85% responding when alone sounds awfully close to my 90% figure. Even in the case where there are 4 other bystanders, mathematics will tell you that there's still an 85% chance one of them will help. Same goes for the one other bystander case. Regardless, in that study, there'd always be an 85% chance of that person receiving help from someone. Quote:
You may find the morality of other cultures to be strange, but I guarantee you, if you look deeper you'll find the root concepts of their morality is the same as yours. People are fundamentally moral, and perhaps that makes the savagery existent in so many societies all the more chilling. Usually they believe what they are doing is right. [/quote] There is also no concrete consensus on the root cause of socio/psychopathy. There are hints at genetic traits that predispose one to such conditions, but there are also very strong connection between adverse environment such as abuse or neglect during early childhood and those who develops psychopathic tendencies. These are basic stuff that are covered in just about every entry level sociology/criminology classes :/ [/quote] Nonsense, incidence of Psychopathy has no relation to family background, except that those from more functional backgrounds are better at covering it up. Many Psychopaths learn to function within society, albeit in a deceptive and callous manner. Psychopaths are usually born that way, and it's possible to identify psychopaths as young children (the most obvious sign is excessively abusing animals). Now it's possible to develop criminal dysfunctions when growing up in a bad unstable environment, but not psychopathy or sociopathy. Such criminals will still have a sense of morality, albeit a twisted one. It might have different emphases. For instance gang members might excessively focus on the obligations of "brotherhood". Quote:
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@GundamFan0083: How come the police are able to rule here in Ireland despite not carrying any guns? I think you'll find social pressures are a lot more powerful then you might think. That article did not take any account of the two most powerful drivers of human behaviour: Guilt and Shame. If you were put in jail, you would feel immense shame (what will everyone else think...), that is why you don't commit crime. When guilt and shame fall away, law enforcement usually fail to work. For instance, when homosexuality ceased to be socially unacceptable, suddenly the numbers openly practising it ballooned, even if there were laws against it. If it was only Reason and Force, then fathers would never stay around to look after their children, and people would never donate to charity. The reason society stays together is because of our universal underlying morality. Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2012-08-26 at 05:41. |
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2012-08-26, 08:07 | Link #216 | |||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2012-08-26, 12:10 | Link #217 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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1-(0.69^5)=~0.85 (IE the probability that no one will help in a group of 5 is 0.69^5, we just subtract that from one to get the probability that at least one will help) [/quote] Yup, because honor killings, cannibalism, human sacrifices, incest, child brides etc. are all really actually very moral choices by modern standards right? you're also missing the point here, the argument isn't whether human societies have their own value systems (ie. moral), it's whether that is something that is innate to humans when they're born, or something that was instilled in them by society after one is born. Are Indians born with a natural revulsion against killing cows? and were the Aztecs born with a natural urge to perform human sacrifice? You're essentially arguing that humans are born with a innate ethical sense of right and wrong, a tall order for a species that doesn't even have basic survival instinct. [/quote] The fundamentals of morality are innate to all people. The Aztecs did not feel a natural urge to sacrifice people. They thought it was morally necessary to sustain the world. Incest is considered immoral everywhere (though what precisely is considered incest varies, some don't consider cousins incest etc.). As for honour killings, everyone considers adultery wrong, some consider it relatively minor, others consider it so terrible that the offender should be killed. But their moral judgement is coming from the same place. Might I add, people are moral, they're not necessarily "good". But people invariably think what they're doing is good, or at least that the end they're working towards is good enough to justify the current wrong. Sometimes a person's sense of pleasure will override the sense of right and wrong though. Quote:
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"They are callous and have little empathy for others’ needs or feelings unless they coincide with their own. They show disregard for the rights, property, or safety of others and experience little or no remorse or guilt if they cause any harm or injury to others." and "Their emotional expression is mostly limited to irritability, anger, and hostility; acknowledgement and articulation of other emotions, such as love or anxiety, are rare. They have little insight into their motivations and are unable to consider alternative interpretations of their experiences." They are emotionally stunted in such a way that they lack the moral sense that is otherwise universal to humanity. Our brains are wired towards morality, but given this, it is entirely possible for our wiring to be messed up by genetic or birth defects. A psychopath has no conception of right and wrong, they never feel any guilt. Guilt and empathy are some of the most powerful emotions in our brain, and drives us towards being moral. Without them, we are shallow beings, capable of only the primitive selfish reasoning of the psychopath. Expressions of morality are too similar across cultures and time for us not to have been born with it, albeit our brains are flexible, and our morality is also flexible. But certain moral aspects are universal to everyone, and one of those the willingness to help those in close proximity who are in need of assistance. People only cease to behave this way when they are afraid of helping. The Biblical parable tells us that the Good Samaritan is the exception, I think you will find that he is by far the rule. |
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2012-08-26, 13:56 | Link #218 | ||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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you keep repeating this statement as fact, without anything to back up such claim.
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we're just arguing semantics here. Psychopaths cannot understand others emotions, because they're incapable of feeling them, but that doesn't mean they don't know the concept or what it's supposed to be, without which they would be unable to blend into society. Don't know if you realize this, but the current estimate is that 1% of the general population are psychopaths. That means there are over 70 millions psychopaths on the planet. Quote:
correlation = causation for you then, lol. |
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2012-08-26, 15:41 | Link #219 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Consider a mother and her child. As a rule mothers will always feed and look after their child by instinct, even though it does not in any way directly benefit them. This is because of their moral sense. If they did not, they would feel guilt. It doesn't matter how they are raised, such maternal instincts always kick in. Even cats and dogs have such a morality, albeit far less complex then humans. Quote:
When we see another man suffering, our natural empathy kicks in, most of us cannot shut it off. That empathy leads us to suffer with the person. If we choose to help we will naturally feel a sense of satisfaction, as we will feel relief with that person. If we choose to ignore them, the suffering will fester within us, and we will feel guilt and shame. This is Morality, and it lies at the core of the human condition. Quote:
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The same goes for things like empathy and love, these are things we are born with, or develop without fail at puberty. That is why I say morality is fundamental to being human. Morality is one of the building blocks of our psychology, it can be morphed by the society we live in, but it's always there, and certain moralistic attitudes (like the desire to help a nearby person in need) are universal. The only way to override it is for the person to train themselves into thinking the other person isn't human, and that is quite a hard thing, especially when they're screaming in pain and crying for help. |
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2012-08-26, 16:28 | Link #220 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I think the word "moral" is too overloaded with meaning, since as Don examples, it doesn't even mean "good" (since it could result in witch burnings, faux honor killings, etc).
Moral codes lead to mixed results, one reason I think the proposition that "morality is absolute" (or even tied to religion) fails. I can see the points being made by Ledgem/Don and Gundam/Kyp depending on the context so what I'm getting out of this is that a 'win/win' path is going to be torturous no matter what. I refuse to relinquish the right or tools to defend myself but I don't know a good route to *prevent* "broken people" from exploding on the public. Actually, I know some routes but they involve expenditures in mental health care and potentially dangerous definitions of "normal". I've watched the "punish the bully victim" instead of "stop the bully" programs too often in K-12 to be really confident of public policy making on the matter.
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