Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. It was a needless and risky addition. The original manga approach was fine the way it was, and there's no good reason why the anime couldn't have stuck with that.

Well different views I guess. I thought the original scene was pretty slim anyways so adding a bit to it is fine by me. Give Miyu's character a bit of focus. Volunteers to carry Illya home after the previous incident and this time takes action to seperate her from any further fighting. Luvia and Rin need to get this done and aren't going to push heavily to keep Illya out of it since they can use the power and Illya herself might not be so willing to abandon a friend in need without a push. Whether or not it's a bad decision is one thing, I just think it's good that Miyu didn't just stand around doing nothing.

Miyu plays deadpan well. Not everybody is going to interpret subtle visual cues the way you and/or The Green One might. And words that are nasty on the face of it are words that are nasty on the face of it. I'm inclined to agree with Random Wanderer that this speech was very out-of-character for Miyu. Some will be so shocked by the words that they'll miss the visual cues. I know that I was very shocked to hear Miyu insult Illya like that.

But isn't the point that they are shocking words? If they were obviously full of it then it wouldn't be as effective at pushing Illya away. Miyu isn't a great actress here. If she tries to sell it in a weak manner it won't be convincing.

If Illya wasn't involved in it, then everybody else would probably have died at the hands of Saber Class Card. It's foolhardy to push Illya out after she's not only proved her worth, but also proved that she may even be essential.

Well yeah it's a given that they would have been wiped out otherwise against Saber. Don't think you'll find a difference of opinion on that front. But at the same time is Miyu so selfish that she'll encourage a friend who is suffering so much in these fights just so it's easier on her? If it means picking up the slack and pushing herself unbelievably hard I think a serious type like Miyu will pick that route. A decision with risks, but maybe risks Miyu is willing to live with.

It's partly because Miyu is logical that I find her speech out of character here. Illya was tremendously helpful in defeating Caster and Saber. Miyu should be smart enough to realize that Illya was essential in capturing those Class Cards. Who's to say that the one after Assassin won't be the same?

But who's to say it would even go as well as it did this time? The winning move this time was a reckless area blast that could have taken out her own allies. What if even with Illya's help they can't take out the next card? This time was close regardless. If that poison was any more effective Illya would have been down before she could act and they would have died anyways. Helpful isn't the major part of the equation here. Illya's emotional breakdowns with Saber or here brought out Miyu's concern for Illya. Protecting her by pushing her away doesn't seem grossly out of character.

It's worse than Miyu, Rin, and Luvia all getting themselves killed because they can't handle a Class Card that Illya would have made the difference against.

In any event, even if this is 100% about protecting Illya, there were far better ways that Miyu could have went about it.

The key word though is could. The end result could very well be the same. Whether it's victory or defeat. Maybe Miyu can win alone or maybe Illya would die along with them next time. One way though does make sure her friend lives to see another day.

And yeah there is definitely better ways to handle the situation. But are there better ways that Miyu would think of instantly and could actually pull off well? It's fine for us to sit here comfortably and come up with theories, but really Miyu felt the need to make a decision quickly.

Miyu could be afraid. She might be legitimately afraid of what Illya might do next. I don't think so, but I think it's a viable interpretation.

Someone also could think that Miyu has ironically become jealous of Illya, seeing as how Illya mastered flight while Miyu couldn't and seeing as how Illya was able to defeat Saber when Miyu couldn't. So Miyu is now taking advantage of a bad situation to force out someone she's grown jealous of.

Now, do I think that? No, I don't. But again, not everybody is going to pick up on subtle visual cues the same way, and even for those who do notice them they may interpret them differently.

This anime-original scene really does run the risk of making Miyu seem like an unappreciative jerk to many viewers.

There are multitudes of ways to interpret things. Until we get Miyu's thoughts directly that's just how it is.

Risks are run, but I think it does a better job of not making Miyu a bystander. It's not just her reacting to Illya's decisions but making her own on what to do in this situation. In the worse case of her just flipping out because of the danger they were put in it at least gives Miyu more depth. She's a young kid too. Should Illya just be the only one allowed to get upset in this situation? If Miyu made a mistake that gives her something to overcome and grow from.

It's not like they are going to just ignore this and pretend it never happened. I just don't mind a bit of conflict in the plotline.

Whew, I'll leave it at this. I'm just not up for mass replying too often .

[Guido]

How come this episode began with Illya having her weird switch flipped on just for seeing Miyu dressed in maid uniform, and then it suddenly gave a twist with Illya snapping for getting hit by Assassin, and at the thought of everyone is going to die right in front of her?

I mean the first half of this episode was hilarious and your everyday life routine, and as normally what our heroines do is to get back into the Mirror World to collect more cards.

However, for an itsy, bitsy mistake from Illya's, the end result turned to Illya nuking Assassin along with the dimension into a wasteland. In turn, this twist prompted Miyu stating not wanting have anything to do with Illya from now on. Nevertheless, Illya doesn't know that Miyu said those things for Illya's sake and protection; well, I'm trying to be optimist with that last bit.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make by saying something so completely irrelevant.

What I said is completely relevant. It's simply unfair for Miyu to judge Illya for her mistakes if she's not going to also give her proper credit for her successes. This is true regardless of whatever reasons Miyu had for saying what she did to Illya in this episode.

Also, isn't Miyu supposed to have deep, personal reasons for wanting to catch these Class cards? Isn't that the whole reason why she initially didn't want Illya joining in since she didn't think Illya was taking it seriously enough (i.e. treating it like a game)? Isn't this whole Class Cards capture thing very important to Miyu?

Then she shouldn't want to push away an invaluable teammate that's helping her achieve her goals.

I prefer a Miyu that's fair, firm, logical, smart, and resolute in trying to achieve her goals. I prefer that to the Miyu that we seem to be getting now. Sometimes "character development" is actually character derailment, and I think this may be one of those times.

Besides, I think that Miyu had been well-developed and very well-characterized prior to the Assassin fight in this episode. She was a serious, no-nonsense, shrewd, goal-focused, tactically-sharp, very
scientifically-minded magical girl with a lot of drive, determination, talent, and hard work. But beneath that exterior was a warm and caring heart that was slowly overcoming her social awkwardness due to the growing friendship between her and Illya. She was strong and competent overall, but capable of displaying insecurity over areas of weakness (as shown by her struggles at flying). She has a softer and very moe side to her as we saw in the first half of this episode.

Now, what's wrong with that? That seems rather well-developed to me. Why throw an excellent characterization like that into jeopardy with questionable anime-original content?

I'd really like to see what you'd do in a situation where your newfound friend came this close to accidentally killing you.

If that same newfound friend had saved my life before then I'd largely let it slide. I'd probably suggest that Illya should get more preparation before we go after another Class Card. But I wouldn't basically tell her that she's a shitty magical girl and hence I don't want to fight alongside her anymore.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

But at the same time is Miyu so selfish that she'll encourage a friend who is suffering so much in these fights just so it's easier on her?

I don't think that Miyu wants these Class Cards captured for a selfish reason. So I don't think it would be selfish of her to try to keep the team as strong as possible, and encourage a friend who needs help getting through the remaining fights.

Should Illya just be the only one allowed to get upset in this situation? If Miyu made a mistake that gives her something to overcome and grow from.

The more this anime-original scene impacts later material, the more anime-original material we'll get. And the more work writers will have to do to try to make that all gel with what they're adapting from the manga. That's a risky approach for an anime adaptation to take, in my opinion. Source material fans typically want anime adaptations to be as faithful to the source material as possible. There are the odd exceptions that I think work well, but they're usually one-shot deals (like the added length/atmosphere given to last episode). Trying to significantly alter overall characterization from one medium to the next is fraught with dangers.

And since I think that Miyu was fine the way she was, I would have rather the anime had not went this route.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Guido

How come this episode began with Illya having her weird switch flipped on just for seeing Miyu dressed in maid uniform, and then it suddenly gave a twist with Illya snapping for getting hit by Assassin, and at the thought of everyone is going to die right in front of her?

I mean the first half of this episode was hilarious and your everyday life routine, and as normally what our heroines do is to get back into the Mirror World to collect more cards.

However, for an itsy, bitsy mistake from Illya's, the end result turned to Illya nuking Assassin along with the dimension into a wasteland. In turn, this twist prompted Miyu stating not wanting have anything to do with Illya from now on. Nevertheless, Illya doesn't know that Miyu said those things for Illya's sake and protection; well, I'm trying to be optimist with that last bit.

Maybe that's just part of the point of hitting home why Illya is so out of sorts at the end. A more normal life (well normal as her molesting maids is) clashes so strongly with what she's been doing lately. In life or death battles to collect class cards in situations where it wouldn't be shocking that they could all die.

It's weird to watch going from one extreme to the other, but must be even harder to actually live through it.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What I said is completely relevant. It's simply unfair for Miyu to judge Illya for her mistakes if she's not going to also give her proper credit for her successes. This is true regardless of whatever reasons Miyu had for saying what she did to Illya in this episode.

Her successes do not negate the fact that she endangered the lives of everyone when she exploded. Nor do her failures negate the fact that she saved some lives earlier. The two do not affect eachother in such ways. Thinking they do is... That's like saying saving one life justifies killing someone else.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If that same newfound friend had saved my life before then I'd largely let it slide. I'd probably suggest that Illya should get more preparation before we go after another Class Card. But I wouldn't basically tell her that she's a shitty magical girl and hence I don't want to fight alongside her anymore.

You really can't know that. You've never been in such a situation before. Furthermore, Miyu never said anything that assholeish. All she did was tell the truth as it was. That she is unsuited to this kind of thing and is better off living a normal life.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You really can't know that. You've never been in such a situation before.

That's not true, Triple is a very dashing, heroic magical girl in real life. that's what I like to believe, anyway

I'm looking forward to the next episode a lot. Poor Illya...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Her successes do not negate the fact that she endangered the lives of everyone when she exploded. Nor do her failures negate the fact that she saved some lives earlier. The two do not affect each other in such ways.

If you were going to evaluate the work of a police officer, a teacher, a CEO, almost any profession really... would you evaluate them on the basis of both their successes and their failures, or just their failures?

My position is that any fair evaluation would involve factoring in both successes and failures. Miyu isn't doing that, which is not fair of her, and which hence undermines the validity of what she's saying. It's definitely not something I like seeing from a person that seems to value accuracy and honesty in what she says.

You really can't know that. You've never been in such a situation before.

How do you know what situations I've been in before?

But even if I haven't been in this very specific situation before, I know how I tend to think about things, and I know what my standards are.

Is it possible that in the heat of the moment I might have had a short outburst of anger or shock if I was in Miyu's position in this episode? Yes, it's possible. Perhaps even likely.

But ultimately, I would strive to largely let the matter slide. I am confident that even if I did lose my cool for a minute or two, I wouldn't have insulted the other person in the very calculated way that Miyu did.

Furthermore, Miyu never said anything that assholeish. All she did was tell the truth as it was. That she is unsuited to this kind of thing and is better off living a normal life.

That's false.

Let me copy and paste what was said...


Miyu: That was dangerous.
Ilya: I-I'm sorr–
Miyu: If my barrier hadn't been quick enough Luvia-san, Rin-san, and I would have...
Ilya: But I was thinking...everyone will die if I don't...
Miyu: And this is the result. One mistake and everyone would have died...because of you.
Rin: Hey, wait!
Ilya: But...
Miyu: In the beginning you were the one who was wounded, you were the one who lost the ability to move.
Miyu: You brought that mistake upon yourself, released all of that magical energy, and put everyone in danger.
Ilya: That's...
Miyu: In the end the enemy was defeated but if you weren't here to begin with, this danger wouldn't have happened.
Miyu: I've had enough. I don't want to fight together ever again.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Miyu is saying here is very harsh. She is putting all the blame on Illya. She keeps going on about how Illya endangered everyone. And she ends with "I've had enough. I don't want to fight together ever again".

This is what you say to someone that you think is screwing up frequently and royally. So yes, she is basically telling Illya that Illya is a shitty magical girl. And she's clearly saying that she doesn't want to fight alongside Illya anymore.


And I disagree with Illya supposedly being "unsuited to this kind of thing and is better off living a normal life." Illya did fantastic against Caster and Saber. Illya is well-suited to this sort of thing. She's generally very good at using magic and battling Class Cards. She just needs some help on the psychological side of things.

[Allium]

Finally caught up with episode 7. I'm sure everyone has been talking about it, but I feel that Miyu's line was a bit too risky for the situation, in the sense that it can be easily misinterpreted. You could say that Miyu was doing it for Illya's own good, i.e. to prevent her from getting into dangerous situations she can't really cope with yet, and clearly she didn't mean all those harsh words, but at the same time it doesn't really come off as consistent with her character.

Personally, I think it was overdone, unnecessary drama, given how much time was spent in the first half of the episode building up their friendship. And even if Miyu didn't mean it, she sounded quite inconsiderate to me, looking at Illya's situation at that moment. I know Miyu's supposed to be socially awkward, but I don't think that was the right time to emphasize her awkwardness, particularly when she seemed to be adjusting well around Illya.

Well, Miyu aside, I actually liked the light-hearted tone of the first half of this episode. Watching Illya 'flip her switch' was funny. I was also pleasantly surprised when the remix of 'Quiet Voice' from the F/SN VN began playing during Ruby and Sapphire's exchange at the balcony.

[FateAnomaly]

Miyu may have good intentions (I think she didn't really mean what she said) but Illya is the stronger magical girl of the 2 of them except that she just don't have good combat awareness.

If something happens to the 3 of them because Illya is not around, Illya would have to live with the guilt for the rest of her life so why would she burden her so. Since there is already 2 precedence whereby Illya participation actually matters. Instead of shoving Illya away why don't she train herself to be stronger.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If you were going to evaluate the work of a police officer, a teacher, a CEO, almost any profession really... would you evaluate them on the basis of both their successes and their failures, or just their failures?

Both, of course, unlike you who seem to only seem to care about her successes. Which don't even exist.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Miyu: That was dangerous.
Ilya: I-I'm sorr–
Miyu: If my barrier hadn't been quick enough Luvia-san, Rin-san, and I would have...
Ilya: But I was thinking...everyone will die if I don't...
Miyu: And this is the result. One mistake and everyone would have died...because of you.
Rin: Hey, wait!
Ilya: But...
Miyu: In the beginning you were the one who was wounded, you were the one who lost the ability to move.
Miyu: You brought that mistake upon yourself, released all of that magical energy, and put everyone in danger.
Ilya: That's...
Miyu: In the end the enemy was defeated but if you weren't here to begin with, this danger wouldn't have happened.
Miyu: I've had enough. I don't want to fight together ever again.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Miyu is saying here is very harsh. She is putting all the blame on Illya. She keeps going on about how Illya endangered everyone. And she ends with "I've had enough. I don't want to fight together ever again".

Could you maybe like, bold the parts where she's being "harsh", and putting "all of the blam on Illya"?

This is what you say to someone that you think is screwing up frequently and royally. So yes, she is basically telling Illya that Illya is a shitty magical girl. And she's clearly saying that she doesn't want to fight alongside Illya anymore.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And I disagree with Illya supposedly being "unsuited to this kind of thing and is better off living a normal life." Illya did fantastic against Caster and Saber. Illya is well-suited to this sort of thing. She's generally very good at using magic and battling Class Cards. She just needs some help on the psychological side of things.

I'm not sure when she did "fantastic" against Caster. Don't get me wrong, she did add to it, but in the end it was teamwork that took her down. As for Saber, I don't recall her doing much during that fight other than hand her stick to Rin.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Both, of course, unlike you who seem to only seem to care about her successes. Which don't even exist.

...Wait, what?

Originally Posted by Dengar

This is what you say to someone that you think is screwing up frequently and royally. So yes, she is basically telling Illya that Illya is a shitty magical girl. And she's clearly saying that she doesn't want to fight alongside Illya anymore.

I'm not sure when she did "fantastic" against Caster. Don't get me wrong, she did add to it, but in the end it was teamwork that took her down. As for Saber, I don't recall her doing much during that fight other than hand her stick to Rin.

Installing Archer and defeating Saber was Ilya's accomplishment, whether it was done subconsciously or not. But even excluding that, by your own admission defeating Caster was a team achievement. Whether scolding Ilya for her failure against Assassin was deserved or not, it's out of character for Miyu to desire working alone because she supposedly thinks her partner is incompetent. It completely disregards the development of their relationship after the Caster and Saber battles.

[kk2extreme]

I wonder why they did not use the Assassin from Fate/Stay night...

Oh well, this is okay too

[J the Drafter]

It seemed pretty obvious to me that Miyu was acting out of anger born from fear. I think Miyu has some reason for caring about Illya even though, from Illya's perspective, they met only a couple days ago. Miyu doesn't want Illya involved in Card collection--at least partly for Illya's sake--and Miyu reacted with anger because of the fear caused by almost getting killed along with Luvia and Rin.

On another note, I'm amused that an ostensible parody portrays someonefreaking out from a scary situation while in combat, while the drama-heavy "Young Justice" and dark "Day Break Illusion" don't even touch the topic.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

I wonder why they did not use the Assassin from Fate/Stay night...

Oh well, this is okay too

If you mean Sasaki Kojirō, he is an irregular servant, because he was summoned through Caster's magic and the Holy Grail instead of just the Holy Grail. Normally only Hassan-i Sabbah can be summoned as an Assassin.

[Unknown Soldier]

The conversation at the end seemed fairly straightforward to me. Miyu is pretty freaked out by the strange and essentially uncontrollable power that Illya has showed twice now. It's a power which easily be turned against them and they would easily be killed by Archerko Illya, who stood toe-to-toe with Saber Alter and defeated her. Miyu's scared as hell and she doesn't want to be fighting alongside someone who is as likely to kill them as she is to kill the opponent. I'm not seeing the problem with the conversation at all, it's obviously painful for Miyu too to say what she said but she's not the sort of person who minces words. That's how she felt right then, and that's what she said.

It's expanded from the manga but the intent is obviously the same from what I remember, I would have read the manga again to check.

Originally Posted by J the Drafter

On another note, I'm amused that an ostensible parody portrays someonefreaking out from a scary situation while in combat, while the drama-heavy "Young Justice" and dark "Day Break Illusion" don't even touch the topic.

It's not really a parody. The magical girl elements of the show are played entirely straight, and the whole thing is set in an alternate Fate/ universe which is at it's core a pretty dark setting. If anything it's an homage to magical girl series, as it mashes up Cardcaptor Sakura and Nanoha pretty straightforwardly. It also has an incredible amount of Fate/ and loli fanservice, they aren't even pretending to disguise who the target demographic is here.

[Triple_R]

Well, I've certainly found the last few posts on this thread interesting.

Kanon and The Green One seem very confident that Miyu's speech was pretty much just for Illya's sake, and that she didn't actually mean what she said.

Dengar, J the Drafter, and Unknown Soldier seem very confident that Miyu was sincere in what she said, and that it was due to anger or fear or both. Their position seems to be that part of Miyu's motivation is likely concern for Illya's own safety and well-being, but Miyu really does view Illya as someone who's more of a threat to the team than a benefit to it.

So there you go. Even some of the show's biggest fans, all talking about it at length here on Anime Suki, are divided over what caused Miyu's speech and whether it was sincere or not.

And these two different interpretations results in two significantly different takes on Miyu as a whole. So this anime-original bit can significantly change how people view her character.

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out from here...

[R.LocK]

Miyu certainly channeled Hachiman. In a bad way, it seems.

[Gohan78]

If you want another opinion from a non-manga reader, I thought that Miyu's speech was out of character for such a soft-spoken girl. I groaned because I thought that the director was pulling the "let's make two friends fall apart for a petty reason so that they can reconcile later" card. I also interpreted Miyu's pained expression as her barely containing her rage.

Only after reading this thread I can see that Miyu was insulting Ilya to make her drop out and live like a normal girl again. Still I don't like it because there are better ways to go than bashing a little girl who is already emotionally scarred from having almost killed her friends.

(I still gave this episode a 10/10 because the RAEP THE MAID scene was too funny )

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, I've certainly found the last few posts on this thread interesting.

Kanon and The Green One seem very confident that Miyu's speech was pretty much just for Illya's sake, and that she didn't actually mean what she said.

Dengar, J the Drafter, and Unknown Soldier seem very confident that Miyu was sincere in what she said, and that it was due to anger or fear or both. Their position seems to be that part of Miyu's motivation is likely concern for Illya's own safety and well-being, but Miyu really does view Illya as someone who's more of a threat to the team than a benefit to it.

So there you go. Even some of the show's biggest fans, all talking about it at length here on Anime Suki, are divided over what caused Miyu's speech and whether it was sincere or not.

And these two different interpretations results in two significantly different takes on Miyu as a whole. So this anime-original bit can significantly change how people view her character.

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out from here...

That's what I was afraid of when I first saw the scene. Miyu becomes a very different character depending on how you interpret it. I hope they will clarify her intentions later on.

I still don't get why they felt the need to add this scene. The manga was fine as it was. This feels like forced drama.

[GDB]

I'm sure they'll clarify it within the next 2 episodes (probably next one, but not sure as subs aren't out yet... or if they are, I'm at work and haven't had a chance to grab them). I feel that she already inner monologued stuff about this even without her having this speech, so I don't think it'll change much overall (beyond this initial confusion about her intent).