2011-05-05, 20:01 | Link #1381 | ||
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The catch is precisely that they are faceless, but not just evil forces, which makes the struggle to find an understanding with them all the more fascinating. And come to think of it, didn't Ai-Kun count as "face"? He even stayed behind when the Queen left! Quote:
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2011-05-06, 03:50 | Link #1382 | |
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The problem was that "struggling to understand them" was only introduced very late in the series... basically as an afterthought.
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2011-05-06, 15:48 | Link #1383 |
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I don't think it was an "afterthought", considering the existence of Ai-Kun is an anvil sized hint. It's like calling Sheryl's illness an afterthought because only it became important in the latter episodes, but the hints were placed earlier.
It's Macross, I think it's a given that every single time a new alien species appear, the power of music would build bridges of understanding.
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2011-05-06, 16:09 | Link #1384 | |
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2011-05-06, 16:49 | Link #1385 |
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I can kinda understand where Magnuskn is coming from after all the Vajra, were always shown to be aggressive, and overly so at that. To suddenly say that they could get along with humans was sudden, and felt as though it came out of no where, because Ai-kun was just one vajra, versus the many violent vajra that we had seen before.
And to make matters it was the vajra that started the conflict with Frontier, and it was consequently them that that would wipe out whole fleets, which previously weren't doing anything to them. And on top of that they all have a hive mind which means that they all think the same anyway, and if one vajra which is connected to the hive wants to kill humans then the chances were all of them wanted to do the same. |
2011-05-07, 05:03 | Link #1386 | ||||
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Some final points
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An interesting thought: If Sheryl becomes pregnant after that, will her child iherit the same power? By the way, he "Ranka wedding-crashing" is not really a joke. There is background material ( but I don't remember in which continuity ) that Ranka's singing drew Vajra to the Fleet where Grace was about to be married, which resulted in Grace's bridegroom being killed and Grace being fatally injured - which necessitated Grace becoming a full-blown cyborg in the first place. Quote:
On the other hand, it IS a virutaul space, so it's kinda possible. Quote:
The second movie exacerbates this culminating in the ending - whereas the series has just one unresolved thing (the triangle) - the movie resolves this, but butchers everything else - well, see the movie thread. OK Some general thoughts why I like the series. - Music. MUSIC. MUSIC. Frontier has extremely good songs and general music arrangements. It's simply a pleasure to just listen to series. 10/10 - Visuals. Not superstunning, but Up-to-date, and clear-looking. 8/10 - Enemies. I actually liked Vajra as enemies, more than I did like M7 ones. It is rarely that a Bug War is pulled without resorting to "Bugs are jest humans in a mask" trick. Yes, the execution couldd have been somewhat better, but the true hive mind is hard to depict (Compare Mospeada idiocy). So respect for taking such concept, and not botching it completely. 7/10 - Plot. Frontier actually has a very tightly packed plot, meaning that you can watch episode after episode without becoming bored (well, almost ) This again put it way up when compared to say, Mospeada or Gundam, but alos to Macross 7. As I said before Macross 7 has 49 episodes, which should be compressed into 10, top, whereas Frontier has only 25 - but enough materials for at least 40. 10/10 - And finally, there is the fine balance between cynicism and idealism that the series endorses. Many series are sugar-bowl idealistic, with any attempt at realism thwarted by the plot and naive solutions being present as the only right (Sailor Moon, Wedding Peach, etc). Others are realistic... which for them means being totally cynical: any idealistic thought has to be squashed in order to accompl,ish anything (Death Note, Bokurano, Berserk) This doesn't even require a downer - the heroes sometimes win, but only by being cynical. Macross Frontier, meanwhile, has a very balanced approach. It fully suggests that life has many cynical sides, whether it's a tech-laden life like in Galaxy, or more "traditional" like on Frontier (Ranka being expelled for participating in an official contest, WTF? And let's not remember how Sharyl was treated in ep. 18 - "where could she be now with her home gone" - who cares?" etc. etc.) Accepting harsh realities is a necessary part of donig anything useful, to yourself or other, and just "hoping for goodness" will never work. BUT in Frontier, and that's the catch, it doesn't mean one should abandon ideals and go for jungle instincts. Upholding human values like love and friendship IS important, and in the end the only way to long-term success. Any attempt to elbow your way up will inevitabl end catastrophically (cf. Miranda, Leon, Grace...) while holding to your ideals has a good chance of ultimately working out. This balance in being "realistic in your views andidealistic in your actions" is symbolised by Sheryl(realistic side) and Ranka (idealistic side). And just like their final victory is achieved by their union, making the world a little better can only be achieved by combination of realistic judgment and idealistic targets. Thus the overall ipression of the seires is extremely well done 10/10. Unfortunately, this very balance is what got so offset in the movies, which why ultimately, I liked the series much better, less stunning visuals nonwithstanding. Lets hope that the Macross Franchise will continue - and that the next series will be as good as Frontier , or even better! OK That's it for the revatch from my side. I think it was fun. |
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2011-05-07, 11:24 | Link #1387 | |
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2011-05-08, 06:46 | Link #1388 |
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The problem with Vajra and empathy I think started in the first episode; in the last episode, Ranka says that the only reason why Vajra attack is to get at infected songstresses and rescue them back to the hive. Yet, we have Gilliam's death. In which a Vajra is unnecessarily vicious in killing him, on top of not just grabbing Ranka and getting the hell out of there.
Had the Vajra done as Ranka believes them to do, it would have shot Gilliam and grabbed Ranka and been out of there before humans had time to regroup. Yet it insists on spending time squeezing the juices out of Gilliam's body, and then even hesitates before grabbing Ranka. Furthermore, Vajra can see the difference between humans and their valkyries, which suggests that they can see individuality to a certain extent, or at least recognize a tiered system of threat (valkyrie + human=threat, valkyrie - human=non-threat), or the Vajra should have continued to attack Gilliam's valkyrie as it certainly would have been a larger threat than Gilliam himself. It all boils down to feeling empathy for a totally alien race that has shown some very clear signs of psycho- or sociopathy on a near ecumenical scale (Ai-kun being the odd one out because he has been raised by people who rewards empathy and affection, which suggests some form of individuality in the Vajra themselves). In short, I think that in an effort to hide the plot twist (Vajra are really nice people, really, Ranka said so, and she's so moe that she should know. Don't listen to that raving poltergeist named Gilliam! Or Michael, even though you totally should have listened to him when he discussed Alto's feelings!), they ended up writing inconsistencies with not enough foreshadowing. So, as far as Vajra goes, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt I'd give a rabid, vicious dog; put them down for their safety and that of others, or enter them in an extensive and expensive rehab program that has low chances of success. Of course, things are made worse by them being connected to two love rivals, one which has shown repeatedly that she has a hard time coping with the huge responsibility it is, so as far as I can guess, the only way to survive living with Vajra is to fulfil Galaxy's plan; infect all humans and make them connected to the Vajra network so that any heartbreaks are drowned out by the rest of the noise. Which would make a decent OVA. |
2011-05-08, 10:40 | Link #1390 | ||
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Vajra are not interested in Gilliam / Michael. They DO distinquish objects, just like they distinquisch between themselves, but they see any non-songstress-human as mere drones, just an annoyance. The problem is, however that Galaxy DELIBERATELY provoked Vajra by stealing their eggs and placing them on Frontier - That's what turned a previously indifferent species into raging attackers. They weren't just trying to "take" Ranka - they wanted her (whom they considered the human queen) to tell where those eggs are. It took two songstresses and a lot of thinking to understand that different humans can have different actions, thus giving them understanding that Frontier was not responsble for the whole mess. Quote:
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2011-05-08, 11:11 | Link #1391 | |
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Why not take Ranka to a secure location and force her to tell them, if they believe her to be a queen comparable to their own? Why go out of their way to squeeeeeeeze someone to death? Why attack someone who is, for all intents and purposes, inanimate in that moment while there's two perfectly fighting enemies in the same room? Why not ignore her and concentrate on killing her allies so that she wont have back up when Vajra decide to kill her? They don't even have to acknowledge her as a separate being; shoot the healthy leg instead of the one that's asleep. If they planned that someone would defend Klan, then they have to acknowledge individuality as well. It's just, what we saw in the first episode, with Gilliam, is at odds with what we saw in the last episode, and it wasn't merely character development and revelations (heck, even just dropping Gilliam and stomping on him would have been more efficient than the squeeze). Why don't the Vajra, if they are unable to hear humantradi who aren't infected songstresses, mistake machinery as a type of humantradi drone (like Gilliam's valkyrie)? After all, valkyries gave injured them just as much as the humantradi has. Add that Galaxy, who have injured them the most, is filled with humantradi cyborgs, which would make valkyries even more attractive targets. It's like, sometimes they're vicious, sometimes they're just misunderstood, sometimes they don't understand individuality, sometimes they see the difference between zentradi, humans and machines. It's like the series wavered a bit on that point, and then decided to go all out on the "Vajra are great!". All I'm saying is that despite Vajra being portrayed as misunderstood and misunderstanding, they received some scenes that could put that portrayal into question, even after all is said and done. |
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2011-05-08, 12:46 | Link #1392 | |
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2011-05-09, 17:22 | Link #1393 | |
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And the fact remains that Vajra had contact with humans for a long time, but never before did they started to attack fleets systematically (the 117th being the exception). Something angered the Vajra, and they blamed human "Queens" for it. That's why they wanted Ranka - not for nice chat. |
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2011-05-09, 17:32 | Link #1394 | |
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It is also shown that Vajra can seemingly breed just about anywhere, even on derelicts drifting in the void of space. Yes, it is Grace's fault that the Vajra started attacking, but she did not put the egg there. - Tak
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2011-05-09, 20:52 | Link #1395 |
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SDF Macross Re-Watch 2011 starts this Saturday!
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2011-05-10, 00:45 | Link #1396 | |
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2011-05-12, 04:04 | Link #1397 | |
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I remember that a red vajra was tagged to Frontier hidden somewhere but on the other side, somewhere before the movie making of Macross Zero, the Leon/Grace conspiracy started. There was also the scene where the Skull Squad (Michel and Alto) was on scout duty and Brera destroyed a hidden vajra larva colony. However, maybe I'll rewatch the scenes. It's worth to look at the theory.
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2011-05-12, 04:12 | Link #1398 | |
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macross frontier, re-watch |
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