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Old 2014-04-18, 16:00   Link #34341
Agiel
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Regarding the Goat Censor

Hey all! Long time lurker here, but kuroberus' post got me interested, so I rooted around in the umineko gamefiles for the audio of the goats. It turns out that along with the audio of all the goats speaking together, they have each track separately.
The messages are as follows (excuse my poor Japanese)
The first one is these two layered over each other:
Datte, hoka ni ikinokotteru hito ni wa inai ja nai?
After all, there aren't any other survivors, right?
Datte, anta igai wa minna shinda!
After all, everyone but you died!
The second line seems to be both of these layered over each other:
Ushiromiyaka de ikinokotteru wa anta dake da yo!
You're the only surviving member of the ushiromiya family!
Sore ga nani yori no shouko ni naru no yo
This line is slightly above my level of japanese, someone could probably provide a much better translation than I can here
Hope this helps!
Edit: Forgot to mention this, but it seems like one line is spoken by eva and one by eva-beatrice. They're distorted in the final product, but the individual lines sound very much like the two.

Last edited by Agiel; 2014-04-18 at 16:32.
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Old 2014-04-18, 22:43   Link #34342
GuestSpeaker
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Random Opinion:

I've been wondering if Yasu didn't plan a fake murder game but also set the bomb, so she had an all or nothing plan in place. It would match the epitaph.

Random Thought:

Is Bern the cruelest possible stand-in for us? The author has implied through multiple characters that Ange learning the truth won't be super great for her, but we don't really care. As readers we want all secrets revealed (all guts ripped out) and all knowledge given to her, despite how cruel it might be, because we think it would be interesting. We are definitely the ones who are happy to read a story once but then tear it apart the second time. We kind of want her to fulfill her goal, but only insofar as they line up with ours. We would find it unbelievably boring if we didn't learn the truth, and don't think her emotions/wishes matter more than ours because she is a written person and therefore on a different level of existence to us.

When witches get bored, they die. When readers get bored, they leave.
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Old 2014-04-18, 23:37   Link #34343
Dr. Casey
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It is. The chapter starts with Kinzo talking about his guns and then being found by Ange. Then Eva asks him about Genji and we get the tale. Is the Ep 8 chap 8 that you're reading counting 46 pages? Because I fear you're missing a part of it. Kinzo's past starts at page 22
Thanks, I managed to find it after browsing a few different websites; the original page I used accidentally duplicated chapter 9 for both chapters 8 and 9. It was shorter than I was hoping for, but as someone who finds Kinzo really fascinating it was a great read just the same. Neat how much people can change across a lifetime; during their youths Kinzo and Genji were perfectly decent guys that weren't offensive or controversial in any way (heck, Kinzo came across as typical shounen hero material), a huge contrast to the shady old men we know during the series proper that have a checkered past and are the masterminds behind about six hundred different conspiracies. Kinzo probably has the most defined life story out of anyone in Umineko: the perfectly normal child and adolescent that loved his hometown, the despondent Family Head that found life to be gray and meaningless, the feared tyrant and ruthless businessman rejuvenated by his experiences in the war and with Beatrice, and the bitter, remorseful, scary old man that became progressively more reclusive and obsessed with black magic during his final years. He really is an interesting person.
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Old 2014-04-19, 04:21   Link #34344
Kealym
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How much sense does it make to continue doubting Battler's character when it's been so ... consistent?At least as consistent as everybody else's, save Kinzo.

Furthermore, if you'd argue that Tohya's memories of Battler were fragmentary at the time of his writing forgeries, then he would barely be able to write anybody because Battler is the only person he even knows kinda sorta well. All 17 other humans are virtually strangers to him.

Still pretty convinved that the relative accuracy of the characters portrayals is something we're just tupposed to assume. We arguably never get a verifiably objective representation of the human characters, but it does start to sound like rather wild speculation, very quickly, to doubt "the kind of person Battler / Jessica / Hideyoshi / whomever, was"

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Random Thought:

Is Bern the cruelest possible stand-in for us? The author has implied through multiple characters that Ange learning the truth won't be super great for her, but we don't really care. As readers we want all secrets revealed (all guts ripped out) and all knowledge given to her, despite how cruel it might be, because we think it would be interesting. We are definitely the ones who are happy to read a story once but then tear it apart the second time. We kind of want her to fulfill her goal, but only insofar as they line up with ours. We would find it unbelievably boring if we didn't learn the truth, and don't think her emotions/wishes matter more than ours because she is a written person and therefore on a different level of existence to us.

When witches get bored, they die. When readers get bored, they leave.
I think she's definitely analogous to us, yes. In that sense, it lines up very well with Featherine basically being Ryukishi's stand-in, and sometimes I wonder if Bern's growing bloodlust over the course of the plot is responsive to what I feel were Higurashi-fans disappointment with the different points of focus Umineko was offering.

Well, I also sort of felt like the IRL readers, us, were kinda sorta meant to be the spectators at the wedding in EP6, and filling the theater seats during EP7's TP, but that was just my impression.
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Old 2014-04-19, 08:27   Link #34345
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Whether we doubt or accept Battler's characterization though, we still have no idea what it was that he actually did during the weekend, and not knowing that is a pretty large question mark.

I just think his ep4 portrayal of "sit around and wait for everybody to get killed, screw up what little contact he has with anyone, not know what's going on" is unsatisfying on a literary level, and we know that at some point he at least has to have discovered the means to escape explosive death. Did he find it? Was he shown it? If so, who showed him the way? These seem like important questions.
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Old 2014-04-19, 10:22   Link #34346
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Has anyone read redaction of the golden witch? If you have, what is it? :O
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Old 2014-04-19, 10:31   Link #34347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Random Opinion:

I've been wondering if Yasu didn't plan a fake murder game but also set the bomb, so she had an all or nothing plan in place. It would match the epitaph.

Random Thought:

Is Bern the cruelest possible stand-in for us? The author has implied through multiple characters that Ange learning the truth won't be super great for her, but we don't really care. As readers we want all secrets revealed (all guts ripped out) and all knowledge given to her, despite how cruel it might be, because we think it would be interesting. We are definitely the ones who are happy to read a story once but then tear it apart the second time. We kind of want her to fulfill her goal, but only insofar as they line up with ours. We would find it unbelievably boring if we didn't learn the truth, and don't think her emotions/wishes matter more than ours because she is a written person and therefore on a different level of existence to us.

When witches get bored, they die. When readers get bored, they leave.
Well, as the bomb didn't explode at the first midnight but at the second, this means that at least Sayo let a night pass without setting the bomb... which would give her time to set the murder game.

I'm not sure what Ryukishi was planning here but for me it makes more sense if she planned fake murders and decided if no one were to solve the tricks she would use the bomb as it's a lot less risky and allow for resurrection should someone solve everything as well as for a possibility of happiness for her.
If someone stops her but she has already killed people she'll surely go to jail in the most unplesant way, her secrets exposed to the public... unless she manages to kill herself first (no idea if there's death sentence in Japan).

Our confession though seems to imply she planned to commit real murders and if she planned to mutilate corpses like in... let's say the first twilight of Ep 1 I'm not sure if she has the ability to use make up in such way or to replace corpses with dummies (even though Eva implied she thought they were wearing make up).

The difference between Bern and us is that to Bern PieceAnge is someone with real feelings and a will of her own and therefore existing somehow, even when she's just a piece. To us Ange is just a character in a tale with no real will nor feelings. She'll feel sad because Ryukishi will decide so and she'll do this because Ryukishi will decide so.

She doesn't even stand in as litterally representation of a real person. There's not, as far as we know, a real Ushiromiya Ange who lost her family and is pained by this situation. In short our will to know the truth can't really hurt anyone that can realistically feel pain... while Bern knows Ange will feel pain.

So yes, there are definitely parallels between us and Bern... or the witch hunters for the matter... but in the end we are aware that with our wish to knowledge we aren't hurting Ange because she's not real. Our empathy level with her is legittimally low due to her... not existing.

So I don't think it's a perfect comparison.

Were Umineko dealing with real facts... then the parallel would probably be perfect. But as it deals with what, in our world is only fantasy... we don't feel the need to hold back for another's sake because that 'another' simply put doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Thanks, I managed to find it after browsing a few different websites; the original page I used accidentally duplicated chapter 9 for both chapters 8 and 9. It was shorter than I was hoping for, but as someone who finds Kinzo really fascinating it was a great read just the same. Neat how much people can change across a lifetime; during their youths Kinzo and Genji were perfectly decent guys that weren't offensive or controversial in any way (heck, Kinzo came across as typical shounen hero material), a huge contrast to the shady old men we know during the series proper that have a checkered past and are the masterminds behind about six hundred different conspiracies. Kinzo probably has the most defined life story out of anyone in Umineko: the perfectly normal child and adolescent that loved his hometown, the despondent Family Head that found life to be gray and meaningless, the feared tyrant and ruthless businessman rejuvenated by his experiences in the war and with Beatrice, and the bitter, remorseful, scary old man that became progressively more reclusive and obsessed with black magic during his final years. He really is an interesting person.
I've the feeling that even in their past Kinzo and Genji weren't that nice. Probably they weren't as bad as they'll be as adults but as youths they were probably closer to Rudolf (who did money in illegal ways even prior to getting married but wasn't as bad as he'll become later) than to... let's say Battler or George.

Growing up in the wrong environments probably pushed everything downhill so that Kinzo wouldn't stop in front of nothing and Genji basically would let him do whatever he wanted.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
How much sense does it make to continue doubting Battler's character when it's been so ... consistent?At least as consistent as everybody else's, save Kinzo.
Well, I guess the problem comes from the fact that Tohya himself seems to be doubting Battler. This leads people to suspect Tohya remembered something unpleasant about something Battler did.

... which means everything and nothing at the same time. If the first thing Tohya remembered about Battler is that... let's say he shot Kyrie he might have thought of Battler as a colld blooded murederer and not have known that Battler did it in... let's say self defence.

Of course there's so little development for Tohya we can hardly figure out what scared him in the first place so let's wait and see if the manga will develop things further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Furthermore, if you'd argue that Tohya's memories of Battler were fragmentary at the time of his writing forgeries, then he would barely be able to write anybody because Battler is the only person he even knows kinda sorta well. All 17 other humans are virtually strangers to him.
Well, the characterizations of the people in the games are clearly written to be coherent with the 2 messages in the bottles (ehm... 3 since the manga seems to claim Ikuko owned a 3rd message) and what little was known about the Ushiromiya so maybe Tohya didn't even have to remember them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Still pretty convinved that the relative accuracy of the characters portrayals is something we're just tupposed to assume. We arguably never get a verifiably objective representation of the human characters, but it does start to sound like rather wild speculation, very quickly, to doubt "the kind of person Battler / Jessica / Hideyoshi / whomever, was"
I think the problem with Battler is that differently from... let's say Jessica, his role in Prime is... suspicious. It makes easy to assume he might have been involved by Rudolf and Kyrie in "something".

There's to say though that Battler isn't the only one who gets suspected of not being as... candid as he looks. People speculated Jessica knew Kinzo was dead and that Shannon was Kanon... or that George was willing to murder who would get in his and Sayo's way. Rosa was suspected of having gone paranoid and having been the one to start shooting at the first sight of murder game.
And the same applies for more or less everyone.

The manga has ruled out Rosa, Krauss and Natsuhi from having the chance of doing something but I guess for other characters the situation is still a bit shady so they gets suspected.

It's pretty normal. After all it seems the culprits are Kyrie and Rudolf but through the games, although they weren't depicted as angels, they weren't even depicted as mass murderers. We've to wait till Ep 6 to be informed that yes, Kyrie was determined to kill her love rival to get the man she wanted. Going from being willing to murder one person but never getting the chance to mass murder is a rather big step...

Technically it would be more likely to suspect of Natsuhi who killed a servant and tried to kill a baby and is hiding Kinzo's death taking advantage of his money. Her body count is higher as well as the crimes she committed and the victims are less 'harmful' to her than Asumu was to Kyrie who was probably already pregnant with Ange. The Ep 8 manga though places Natsuhi as the first one killed so she's absolved from murdering people on the basis she died before she could do anything.
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Old 2014-04-19, 11:57   Link #34348
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Has anyone read redaction of the golden witch? If you have, what is it? :O
It's a fanfiction written by Renall. Very good, I recommend it.
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Old 2014-04-19, 15:13   Link #34349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not sure what Ryukishi was planning here but for me it makes more sense if she planned fake murders and decided if no one were to solve the tricks she would use the bomb as it's a lot less risky and allow for resurrection should someone solve everything as well as for a possibility of happiness for her.
Well, what we know so far (curse you Japanese bookstores in Germany for not giving me my monthly dose of GanganJOKER) this is more or less excactly what she planned.
Our Confession is an embelishment since just as much as her stories it is written from Beato's perspective. Beato kills people, but Beato killing people is an illusion that was created by "that person". 'Sayo' likely never had the guts to kill anyone...nor did she really have the intent to kill anyone. What she wanted was being connected as souls, without those "cages of flesh" being in the way. Was that the plan of an insane person? A little...maybe way past sane, but mostly desperate and (as Renall already wonderfully said) it was the horrible people around her who pushed her into this existence as a non-entity with an imperfect body.

The EP7 and 8 manga say it like this:
Her roulette had 3 eyes. Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. But they were also the bomb, the duel of love, and the fake murders. She gave her destiny up to fate so far that she put up three options: Being chosen by somebody, being liberated and connected to all, or at least have someone stop her own madness.

Quote:
To us Ange is just a character in a tale with no real will nor feelings.
Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.
Bern actually makes some interesting points during EP8, especially in the manga where she and Ange get a lot more narrative focus. She simply has a very different worldview compared to Battler. She kind of pities Battler that he was so easy to forget the eternal torture that he was put through, so much that he now in a way puts Ange through the same without even noticing it.

And in the end this Ange really is just fictional as it appears, because while the manga states that Ushiromiya Ange will definitely die in 1998 this does not have to say that the person behind that name dies. At least the VN so far implies that Kotobuki Yukari exists and is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her identity.
So no matter how we look at it, yes, there might have been an Ange who jumped from the building after learning the truth, but there also might be another Ange.

Quote:
Well, the characterizations of the people in the games are clearly written to be coherent with the 2 messages in the bottles (ehm... 3 since the manga seems to claim Ikuko owned a 3rd message) and what little was known about the Ushiromiya so maybe Tohya didn't even have to remember them.
Well, the manga makes it pretty clear that there is a lot known about the Ushiromiya's in 1998. They know about Natsuhi's diaries, about Rudolph's past, about Kinzo's explosives, basically everything we get in the forgeries is kinda backed by some kind of information as it seems and speculation actually sets in from these things.

Ber uses this in an interesting way again (have to check if it was in the VN, but I think it wasn't in such detail) when she and Featherine confront Ange about her role in Battler's game and basically accuse him of making his game TOO clean (so far he even removed the epitaph from his gameboard). If his portrayal of the family was true, then what about Beato's game?!
I think what we have to take from this is, the truth lies inbetween as always and they were neither one extreme nor the other...just human beings.

And isn't that actually what made Battler so angry with EP2 for example? That people were behaving like lunatics and he didn't understand why? Those were likely not the people that startetd popping up in Tohya's head and he was trying to refuse that. His way of changing around people actually already started with EP4, didn't it? The heroic sacrifices, Rosa and Maria being all sweet and loving?

Quote:
After all it seems the culprits are Kyrie and Rudolf but through the games, although they weren't depicted as angels, they weren't even depicted as mass murderers.
Well, EP1 and 2 gave us very few about them, especially about Kyrie since likely Sayo did not know as much about her. They were a little bit the wild cards in Beato's game...
But there was always something unsettling about them.
EP3 had them going to the mansion under some pretext cooked up by Kyrie in order to put pressure on Hideyoshi, with them all ending up dead (with that weird addition of the text mentioning that Kyrie's wound was not immediately fatal).
EP4 had Kyrie being an accomplicee (since EP8 manga plainly spells out that "seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time = being an accomplicee").
In the same Episode we also learn that her birthhome is a very high-rank yakuza-clan, which makes her all the more likely to be connected to violence.
Then we have her being depicted several times as the one who instigated Rudolph to work with his siblings in pressuring Krauss.
EP5 has her and Rudolph using Battler to harrass Natsuhi.

And EP8 gives us several more things, like her and Rudolph's business being connected to criminal organizations, them basically being involved in fraud and swindle since their student days...
If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.

Natsuhi's only real kill was more or less an accident, being more manslaughter than murder, since she only pushed the servant in an impulse reaction.
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Old 2014-04-19, 17:42   Link #34350
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If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.
Being inclined to commit one crime does not automatically mean one is automatically inclined to commit any crime. Also last I checked all of the adults are committing crimes that put them in bad financial straits. Rudolf's is the only one related to direct potential criminal acts on his part, but everyone else has responded to their distress with criminality. Krauss has committed embezzlement and fraud (and I'm not even sure what else covering up Kinzo's death probably makes him guilty of). Eva and Rosa are willing participants in conspiracy to commit blackmail and Eva, if she suspects Kinzo is already dead, may be angling for a far more intense degree of blackmail. Plus there's that lady Natsuhi killed, even if it was an accident. And I'm sure all of these things make everyone equally inclined to shoot their family, or blow up an orphanage, or smuggle bananas without submitting them to customs inspections, because all crimes are the same thing.

I'm reminded of a thing I heard somewhere, can't remember where. Something about not forgetting a heart? Eh, it's probably not related to the situation at hand, nevermind.
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Old 2014-04-19, 17:53   Link #34351
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I dont know, If natsuhi found herself being cross examined for the murder of the servant and the child she'd probably be founded guilty of murder rather than simple manslaughter.
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Old 2014-04-19, 18:06   Link #34352
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Putting a lawyer hat on here, it actually depends. I'll use the Involuntary/Voluntary Manslaughter and Second/First Degree Murder standard here, but I'm not actually sure Japan does it this way.
  • Involuntary Manslaughter is essentially accidentally causing a death through recklessness or gross negligence. This is not what Natsuhi did, according to her. It's not the right charge.
  • Voluntary Manslaughter is basically intentional killing either by reasonable provocation or the commission of an act that wasn't intended to be murder but was still intentionally committed in the heat of the moment. I don't think this is what Natsuhi did either, because she wasn't provoked and while she was in a state of mental distress, I think she still wanted the baby to die. Also not the right charge, but it's something she might plead down to.
  • Second-Degree Murder is killing intentionally in a state of passion or when unreasonably provoked (that is, you shouldn't have been provoked by it). This could be what Natsuhi did. She suggests it was an impulse in the moment. She definitely meant for the baby to die (even if it's the servant she's charged for, the intent transfers to the servant as well). This is the most probable charge, but it could be argued...
  • First-Degree Murder is intentional killing with malice aforethought and, usually, some degree of premeditation. While Natsuhi didn't plot out bringing the baby somewhere that it could be pushed, she still admitted to wanting the baby gone before she actually acted. One could argue that this is an intent to kill that she developed prior to actually making the attempt, and as such, she committed first-degree murder.
I'm deriving that from this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsuhi, EP5
If by taking that baby, and throwing it down onto the rocky beach far below me I could undo it all... I really did listen to that demon's temptation.
Then, for the smallest of moments, I thought of how wonderful it would be if I really could do that, and lent an ear to that temptation. At that time-
The servant holding the baby stepped on a large rock, twisted her ankle, and staggered... She leaned against the rough fence, and at that time, I thought I heard the fence creak loudly.
I told her to look out and tried to grab her shoulder.
No, I shouldn't be so vague... I'll repent. I'll confess.
...At that moment, I'm sure that as I told her to look out, with both hands, I reached for that servant's shoulder, and with a thud, pushed her away hard...
The rough fence snapped from the base, and the servant, along with the baby held in her arms, fell down towards the rocky beach below...
Notably, Natsuhi says she was thinking about killing the baby before the opportunity to do so appeared. When she was presented the opportunity to do it, she did it. That most certainly can be first-degree murder, although it would be much easier to prove second-degree under the circumstances. Especially if her confession isn't admissible for some reason. Then again, without the confession you don't have a case at all because you don't know there was a baby at all.
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Old 2014-04-19, 18:52   Link #34353
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post


Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.

This is a point I was (poorly) trying to make. Ange to us is nothing but fiction, so everything about her is fake. But the author clearly INTENDS us to view her emotions as important. Similarly, Ange to Bern (even Prime Ange) is just on such a different level of existence to her that it is hard for her to empathise at all. This is an idea that you can infer significant support for in Ryu's work.

Think about Battler telling Beato in ep 3 to stop disrespecting her characters so much.

Think about how Jessica and George in Ep6 spoke about how it was "just a game" when they killed, but we were shown the emotions of the killed characters anyway

Even more-so think about Ange, and how at the same time as we were playing Bern's fun little murder mystery, Ange was experiencing the horrors of it first hand.

It is also somewhat supported in Higurashi, no spoilers, but anyone who read Saikoroshi-hen from Rei knows what I mean.


In my completely uninformed opinion, showing the in-world fictional characters' reactions to these things is supposed to allow us to draw a parallel between how the witches see the "real people", and then for us to go further and apply it to others in real life
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Old 2014-04-19, 19:04   Link #34354
haguruma
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I'm reminded of a thing I heard somewhere, can't remember where. Something about not forgetting a heart? Eh, it's probably not related to the situation at hand, nevermind.
The minute I finished my post I knew it will provoke this reaction from you, Renall. Sorry that I still didn't change it, I think I'm growing way to accustomed to this

In my post I didn't want to imply that we or anybody SHOULD consider Kyrie to be the most likely culprit, it's just that circumstancial evidence and her background history don't exactly paint an innocent picture. If what we saw in EP4 is at least partially true then Kyrie grew up around people who have no qualms killing a minor in cold blood. This doesn't have to indicate anything, but it doesn't create an exactly trustworthy background either.

We should also consider that, while his embezzling was apparently proven, Krauss didn't exactly do it out of criminal intent but (at least concerning his characterization) out of naivity (or even stupidity) towards people who are trying to use him.
Furthermore, the plan to harrass Krauss' family-branch into admitting that Kinzo is dead is something that the message bottles brought up...and though it is likely that something like this happened, it doesn't necessarily have to be this black and white.

Natsuhi's culpability is a difficult thing though, I'd not want to have to be drawn into that court case. She did admit to considering the death of the baby, but I do wonder whether she ever actually thought of killing it. It's as much a catbox as Sayo's intent to kill...
Since she is a woman unable to voice her opinion out loud and needs a secret diary to express these, I'd say that emotional outbursts like her "pushing the servant" are a sign of psychological problems that need to be adressed. Well...the whole household needs a whole other household of counselors and psychiatrists probably...

But again we're still circling around certain questions:
Should one persecute a possible crime without regards for the bereaved families of suspects?
Should one just ignore an unsolved crime because less people suffer immediately by letting it rest?
Should one have a heart for people who committed murder or at least killed somebody?
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Old 2014-04-19, 19:07   Link #34355
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, what we know so far (curse you Japanese bookstores in Germany for not giving me my monthly dose of GanganJOKER) this is more or less excactly what she planned.
Our Confession is an embelishment since just as much as her stories it is written from Beato's perspective. Beato kills people, but Beato killing people is an illusion that was created by "that person". 'Sayo' likely never had the guts to kill anyone...nor did she really have the intent to kill anyone. What she wanted was being connected as souls, without those "cages of flesh" being in the way. Was that the plan of an insane person? A little...maybe way past sane, but mostly desperate and (as Renall already wonderfully said) it was the horrible people around her who pushed her into this existence as a non-entity with an imperfect body.

The EP7 and 8 manga say it like this:
Her roulette had 3 eyes. Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. But they were also the bomb, the duel of love, and the fake murders. She gave her destiny up to fate so far that she put up three options: Being chosen by somebody, being liberated and connected to all, or at least have someone stop her own madness.
The sad thing is that receiving the ring from George isn't enough to make her feel she was chosen by someone... as well as learning by George that Battler wasn't making fun of her as a child.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.
Bern actually makes some interesting points during EP8, especially in the manga where she and Ange get a lot more narrative focus. She simply has a very different worldview compared to Battler. She kind of pities Battler that he was so easy to forget the eternal torture that he was put through, so much that he now in a way puts Ange through the same without even noticing it.

And in the end this Ange really is just fictional as it appears, because while the manga states that Ushiromiya Ange will definitely die in 1998 this does not have to say that the person behind that name dies. At least the VN so far implies that Kotobuki Yukari exists and is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her identity.
So no matter how we look at it, yes, there might have been an Ange who jumped from the building after learning the truth, but there also might be another Ange.
Well, yes, for Bern Ange is just a piece but... it seems almost a... racistic way to put it. She interacts with Ange, she knows Ange does things on her own free will. This makes her a sentient piece, a human being, even if one on a lower plane. Battler can't completely control MetaAnge the same way Bern can't. Differently from Piece Ange Meta Ange 'exists'. So I've hard time accepting Bern's excuse she's just a piece to her. It seems more like she sees her as someone from a lower class, a peasant, a slave than a feelingless object. And her lack of empathy with Ange and Erika looks ugly. I don't get the same feeling for the lack of empathy Beato showed for the Pieces in her tales as they were nothing else but puppets moved by her. Sure, they cried and suffered but in a very fictional character way. Meta Battler instead is a different case as he can react to what Beato shows and tells to him so when she uses the stakes to stab him she can't wave it off as him feeling pain only if she's the one who writes him doing so.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And isn't that actually what made Battler so angry with EP2 for example? That people were behaving like lunatics and he didn't understand why? Those were likely not the people that startetd popping up in Tohya's head and he was trying to refuse that. His way of changing around people actually already started with EP4, didn't it? The heroic sacrifices, Rosa and Maria being all sweet and loving?
Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also where we see Krauss regretting the way he behaved with his siblings... when instead, if we're to believe to EP 7 Teaparty he wouldn't hesitate to bully them again not even for a moment and not even if he were to be in a desperate situation.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, EP1 and 2 gave us very few about them, especially about Kyrie since likely Sayo did not know as much about her. They were a little bit the wild cards in Beato's game...
But there was always something unsettling about them.
EP3 had them going to the mansion under some pretext cooked up by Kyrie in order to put pressure on Hideyoshi, with them all ending up dead (with that weird addition of the text mentioning that Kyrie's wound was not immediately fatal).
EP4 had Kyrie being an accomplice (since EP8 manga plainly spells out that "seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time = being an accomplicee").
In the same Episode we also learn that her birthhome is a very high-rank yakuza-clan, which makes her all the more likely to be connected to violence.
Then we have her being depicted several times as the one who instigated Rudolph to work with his siblings in pressuring Krauss.
EP5 has her and Rudolph using Battler to harrass Natsuhi.

And EP8 gives us several more things, like her and Rudolph's business being connected to criminal organizations, them basically being involved in fraud and swindle since their student days...
If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.

Natsuhi's only real kill was more or less an accident, being more manslaughter than murder, since she only pushed the servant in an impulse reaction.
Yes, Kyrie is suspicious but her dead count still amount to 0.

Actually all the Ushiromiya are clearly not good people. Natsuhi killed the servant and tried to kill the baby, getting on top of the list, Rosa abuses of Maria and neglects her, Kyrie considered committing murder and she's into dirty business, Krauss is hiding Kinzo's death and, with this trick, basically also stealing money from his own relatives, Rudolf is involved in dirty business and switched his sons (which I guess can count as some sort of kidnapping?), Eva and Hideyoshi are desperate enough to be willing to resort to blackmail to get Krauss to hand them some money.

Each of them is someone who's defiling/willing to defile law but for each of them the jump they've to do from what they've done to mass murder is of different lenght. Not to say that a person who, so far had behaved with a saint, can't lost it and decide to kill everyone, there's plenty of people who seemed so nice and then... snapped. Only, if we've to judge people solely from what was shown in the games prior to Ep 7 Teaparty, Rudolf and Kyrie weren't killer.
We can't wave Ep 7 Teaparty as solely Bern trolling Ange and Lion as we know it contained a good part if not all the truth so this makes possible her mystery game in Ep 8 contained some truth as well.

Ergo it's possible to suspect about Battler... even if personally I think the chances he purposely murdered someone in Prime are extremely low as not even Eva seems to blame him of something.

LOL, I like the Battler culprit theory but honestly I don't think it's the right solution to Prime.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Notably, Natsuhi says she was thinking about killing the baby before the opportunity to do so appeared. When she was presented the opportunity to do it, she did it. That most certainly can be first-degree murder, although it would be much easier to prove second-degree under the circumstances. Especially if her confession isn't admissible for some reason. Then again, without the confession you don't have a case at all because you don't know there was a baby at all.
Each time I think at Natsuhi's murder I'm reminded of Mouryou no Hako and at how it explained a similar murder (a girl pushing another under the train) by describing it as the girl being possessed by a toorimono, a demon who brings misfortune to houses or people he passes by... which was a poetic way to basically describe how she was suddently possesed by a murdering impulse... more than claiming that she was really possessed by a demon... or so it looked like in the Mouryou no Hako version I saw.

It's interesting because Natsuhi then tries to push the blame on Beatrice... their resident demon... pardon, witch...
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Old 2014-04-19, 20:27   Link #34356
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Differently from Piece Ange Meta Ange 'exists'.
Does she? So is Meta-Ange more real than the Piece Ange who becomes Kotobuki Yukari or the Piece-Ange who fell from the roof of that building? Wouldn't this also make, let's say, Bernkastel more real than Furude Rika?

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Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also
But, if we were to believe that (going by Ange saying that she hears the "voice of that old hag, Eva" at the start of the play) the EP7 teaparty is based on Eva's impression of her siblings...isn't it equally unrealistically subjective? She was always described as hating Krauss' guts so it wouldn't be surprising if she only looked out for the worst in him and didn't even consider him having a well-meaning approach.
Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?

Quote:
Each of them is someone who's defiling/willing to defile law but for each of them the jump they've to do from what they've done to mass murder is of different lenght.
The question is, was there really one person who killed everybody? Yes, mystery-rules demand that, but is this a mystery?

Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
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Old 2014-04-19, 21:07   Link #34357
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One might also not expect Eva's feelings to also be tied up in the possibility that somebody had nearly killed her (whether accidentally, deliberately, or in panicked self-defense), if the ep7 TP is close to her impression of what she believes happened. It would be kind of natural to assume a reason behind an event like that, even where one might not exist. I mean, people get shot as a result of stupid people handing firearms without full attention when they suddenly go off quite often in real life.

Her reconstruction would have to be viewed in that light, noting especially the distinct possibility that either some of her details are wrong (regarding things she did not actually observe) or that her interpretation is wrong (she saw things or heard things but they did not necessarily mean what she expected them to mean). There's also a notable absence in all these instances of what the hell Battler was up to. Did Eva think he died too? What did she expect he was doing? The huge Battler-shaped hole in literally everything purporting to be information about Prime is extremely odd. We're presented with the puzzle piece of a living Battler but no hole for it to fit into, but also enough of the puzzle unassembled that we can't say it doesn't fit either.
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
As a phenomenon? Not that different at all. As a discrete crime? Very different, mostly due to the particular traits the crime shows: A closed-off environment, a swirling mass of suspects and motives, and a sudden and catastrophic ending that leaves everything in mystery. That is, Rokkenjima takes the form of a murder mystery story.

Zodiac, and many serial killers, sort of follow the form of a thriller (or true crime, but true crime is basically just a thriller that's true and occasionally doesn't end with a proper literary climax). Zodiac didn't do all his killings in a specific place and time, but instead had a certain method and mythos. Much like how Jack the Ripper's legend is based around his victim selection and the state he left them in, you're looking at a non-discrete environment for investigation. You can't say "there are 20 people in the building and one of them must be Jack the Ripper!" in the same sense you'd probably be able to reasonably say Rokkenjima, if it was a serial murder, was probably committed by one of the people present on the island that day. You discover the identity of Jack the Ripper by comparing method and presentation and try to figure out things like opportunity and identity. Or don't, of course, since some serial killers are never identified.
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Old 2014-04-19, 21:41   Link #34358
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Does she? So is Meta-Ange more real than the Piece Ange who becomes Kotobuki Yukari or the Piece-Ange who fell from the roof of that building? Wouldn't this also make, let's say, Bernkastel more real than Furude Rika?
I don't think it's a point of 'who's more real'. Meta Ange is real in the Meta layer. And Bern is abusing of Ange in the meta layer. She's deliberately causing pain to someone she knows can feel it because Ange has free will. Bern doesn't care if Ange suffers but know she's suffering, that she has feelings.
If however Bern were to Furude Rika merely a character in a book or something like that, this would strip Bern of being REAL in Rika's world same as it does in ours. Someone is writing Bern's actions and feelings. While we can sympathize with her or hate her we don't feel for her the same obligations we feel for a living being... and while we can judge her evil, in the end, we know she's as such because she was written like that.
Bern isn't real in our world.
In the same way we'll never know if we're real or we're characters of a tale. But from my perspective you and I are real and if I'm... let's say... a jerk to you and call you names it'll be out of my free will and with the knowledge I'll hurt you. I'm guilty of hurting your feelings and I should worry about it... but I won't feel guilty about hurting Bern's feelings if I call her names. In my layer she doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But, if we were to believe that (going by Ange saying that she hears the "voice of that old hag, Eva" at the start of the play) the EP7 teaparty is based on Eva's impression of her siblings...isn't it equally unrealistically subjective? She was always described as hating Krauss' guts so it wouldn't be surprising if she only looked out for the worst in him and didn't even consider him having a well-meaning approach.
Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?
Although it might be subjective, the facts should be more or less true. Rosa maybe didn't sound spiteful and a little crazy when she wanted Eva and Hideyoshi to go to the police but likely that's what asked them to do. This means an argument surely arise over splitting the gold which means that when Eva claimed they should split it equally instead that handling the lion's share to Krauss he didn't say okay, you're right, let's split equally, but tried to blackmail his siblings into submitting to him by claiming he was the only one who could convert the gold so either they obeyed him or they wouldn't have a cent.

Note also that Krauss was already trying to take complete control of Kinzo's fortune by claiming Kinzo wasn't dead yet and wasn't willing to help his siblings to deal with their problems.

I'm willing to concede that likely Krauss felt guilty toward how he acted in regards to his siblings... but he did it in a style similar to Rosa... who feels guilty about beating and neglecting Maria but this doesn't stop her from doing it... or like Kinzo... who knew he shouldn't have taken advantage of Kuwadorian Beatrice but this didn't stop him... or Rudolf... who feels guilty for switching the babies... but at best he told Kyrie and Battler the truth only after 18 years... if he managed/planned to tell it.

In short I'm not trying to paint them as remorseless mosters... but I think they were pretty ugly people at the moment or toward each others or both.

If they weren't they would have calmly sat on a table and supported each other right from when Kinzo died.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The question is, was there really one person who killed everybody? Yes, mystery-rules demand that, but is this a mystery?

Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
Well, if the tea party is close to the truth we know there wasn't as we can count 4 murderers. Krauss and Natsuhi were killed by Eva and Hideyoshi, George by Rudolf, Kyrie by Eva and everyone else by Kyrie and Rudolf.

If your question is: did Kyrie and Rudolf really be the culprits of the murders Eva didn't witness... well, unless Battler's point of view will be revealed and will tell us something we don't know, we'll never know. For all we know it can be the others were just pretending to be dead and Kyrie and Rudolf, who were upside down after what had happened in the golden room, finding everyone else dead, ended up saying something Eva misinterpreted as them being the culprits... and Eva didn't check the curpses and blasted everyone with the bomb.

Or Battler, Jessica and George could have started a love duel over Yasu after figuring that Kanon and Shannon were the same person and that George had stolen Shannon to Battler and Jessica and George died.

Or Genji went mad and killed everyone. Or Kyrie's Yakuza clan best assassin secretly reached the island and killed everyone aiming to make Ange the sole heir so that the Sumadera could take control of her but then incidentally ate a slice of Gohda's almond cake without realizing it contained almonds to which he was allergic and died. We'll never know.

Since the manga revealed some stuffs that weren't really supported by hints... it can be that part of the truth of Rokkenjima is impossible to figure out but just to guess if you're lucky. But we can know only if the manga will give us more to work with. Otherwise I think the implication is that Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits of the murders we didn' see.
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Old 2014-04-20, 21:14   Link #34359
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Just thinking out loud

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Originally Posted by haguruma, quote mined to misrepresent what he was saying View Post

[...]

EPISODE 3:
Piece-Battler (by Ikuko??):
He's still out of the loop, but the interesting thing is that he is not actively trying to do anything like he did in EP1 and 2. He's a little bit more scared by the whole situation but there is also clearly no witch illusion this time around (which draws an interesting parallel to EP5). He's also a lot readier to accuse people and act irrationally.
This is also the only time that 07151129 plays an active part in the island plot and Battler is shown to draw no immediate connection to it.

[...]
You mentioning it as the only time the number figures into the island plot made me realise that it is all too easy to subconsciously regard Battler’s accounts as the only events that actually happen, I am certainly guilty of it here. Forgetting the precise significance of the numbers themselves for a moment, is this the only time a string of numbers was appended to a magic circle (or perhaps on a different object)? We could have situations where other character groups discover a seemingly (different?) random string of numbers during the rediscovery of another murder scene. For example, there are a lot of blanks to fill in in EP4, or when George’s group try to retake Natsuhi’s brooch in EP2. Eva seemingly uses her receipt to record interesting notes, but only survives long enough in EP3 to actually utilise it during such events.

And then if the numbers were different…? ooh boy, my mind would go into overdrive.
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Old 2014-04-21, 08:18   Link #34360
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Firstly I was thinking that Ryu sure loves his "catch me to make me stop killing" killers, and Umineko may have actually grown out of his love for a certain Higurashi story...


Secondly, I am starting to wonder how much George knew.
He makes a lot of claims about their parents just doing what needs to be done to support the family, about how Battler should forgive them and how he himself has matured. Also, at one point Eva tries to bring him to the "real conference" doesn't she? And Hideoyoshi waves it off and says he should go have fun cousin time (not with you Yasu). But that means she was going to have him be there when they blackmailed Krauss...

Heck, maybe everyone but Battler and Ghoda knew that Kinzo was dead.


Finally, In my opinion we need to dispel with the "who could plan a mass murder" argument. We don't really know how many people were dead when the bomb went off, only that Eva thought they were all dead. What we have basically been told though, is that the killing probably started accidentally. At the very least, we can be confident that whoever killed the people probably started only after things went crazy.

What I am trying to say is that we shouldn't be looking for who would plan a mass murder, because Yasu is so far the only one who has been shown to be capable of it with any consistency. A mass murder may have happened, but it was not because some genius string puller (Kyrie) laid it all out, it is because something went seriously wrong, and some broken and messed up people had things get very out of hand. George easily could have attacked someone in anger, especially if he thought his parents were both dead.
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