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Old 2014-03-22, 13:20   Link #34141
Renall
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The portrayal of Black Battler in Ougon (and to an extent, the TIP) strongly suggests that Black Battler sees himself as a sort of culprit of necessity, playing the killer because people want to see that. So I think it's more probable that Black Battler represents all those people theorizing that Battler is the culprit. However, because Battler has even less clear of a motive than other culprit candidates like Eva or Yasu or Kyrie, he becomes a sort of motiveless psychopath. I suspect that's because people in the world beyond just can't really come up with a good reason why Battler would be the killer, so the piece version of Battler-as-killer is just kind of a generically evil guy. There are two ways we could read this:
  • Black Battler is a joke, an effort by Ryukishi to sort of point out the futility of theorizing on a culprit who doesn't have enough information presented to really flesh out in a believable way. He's evil because he's supposed to be evil because he's the culprit. It's a circular argument, and that's why it isn't credible as a theory.
  • Black Battler is mocking people who throw out the notion of a Battler culprit theory without something to back it up, but the possibility exists that there is sufficient evidence within the text to support a more nuanced Battler culprit theory. This at least has some marginal support given the ep8 manga solution to ep5 and Tohya's vague unease about him, but I don't think it's something that's actually solid enough to present as viable.
I think it's probably #1. It's basically Ryukishi going "Oh, you think Battler did it? Okay, why? Oh, you don't know? Maybe he was just totally evil! Yeah, that makes complete sense, riiiiiiiight?" I don't think he's actually challenging us to come up with a better Battler culprit theory, he's just sort of mocking a particularly poorly-supported one.
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Old 2014-03-22, 13:49   Link #34142
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What interests me, however, is that in his story route, all of Black Battler's dialog with Shannon is about himself exonerating her of responsibility, affirming she has no ability to change things, or that she should just follow behind him and she won't have to get her hands dirty.

You know, as if he's doing the exact same thing Eva-Beatrice did.
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Old 2014-03-22, 15:04   Link #34143
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Basically when Battler is the culprit he's always taking responsibility for Shannon. In Ep 5 too he figured out Shannon was the killer but instead than claiming it he framed himself as culprit.

I wish I could play Ougon and study the Battler/Kanon's route as, if I'm not wrong, in that one too Piece Battler is the culprit.
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Old 2014-03-22, 19:21   Link #34144
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Guys, spoilers for Ep 8 manga version are out and it seems Kinzo kept in the underground base the skeletons of the dead soldiers (Shannon seems positively freaked out as Genji shows them to her and tells her the story of how Kinzo got Beatrice... and honestly I would be as well...)... and it seems there's a scene in which Jessica speaks with Shannon about Kanon as if she believed he was a different person (though considering my knowledge of Japanese is not existant I might be wrong)... and it's awesome how the manga depicted how the situation, the new knowledge and the imaginary figures of Kanon and Beatrice as well as something George said (or that she pictured him to say) lead Shannon to madness.
We get even how she blasted up the shrine. She used a bomb with a timer (it looks like two sticks of dynamite with a clock attached), carried it there and turned it on.

Honestly I'm not really sure the explosive works as the VN depicted it but the base is depicted as having plenty of explosives and missiles stored in it so maybe there was no clock with a switch and a timer but surely you could blast the place just the same using something similar to what she used for the shrine and making it explode near to all the other explosives.

Really, I think Genji did the worst job possible in how he tattled out Kinzo's past to her... no wonder she was driven to madness...
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Old 2014-03-22, 19:57   Link #34145
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Quote:
Guys, spoilers for Ep 8 manga version are out and it seems Kinzo kept in the underground base the skeletons of the dead soldiers (Shannon seems positively freaked out as Genji shows them to her and tells her the story of how Kinzo got Beatrice... and honestly I would be as well...)
Because Kinzo needed to be MORE cartoonishly fucked up and over the top. Way to go, Ryukishi.
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Old 2014-03-22, 20:05   Link #34146
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, because Battler has even less clear of a motive than other culprit candidates like Eva or Yasu or Kyrie, he becomes a sort of motiveless psychopath. I suspect that's because people in the world beyond just can't really come up with a good reason why Battler would be the killer, so the piece version of Battler-as-killer is just kind of a generically evil guy. There are two ways we could read this:
To be honest, I have the trouble of forming motives for everyone, not just Battler. I could imagine some certain people killed some certain guy, but I cannot imagine any of them killing everyone with the limited information we have. (Some just can't do it if we trust the narration's depiction of them as somewhat close to the truth, and some...we're not given enough information about them to know what they are *coughGohdacough*) A bit ironic, since this story is supposed to be the "heart" after all.

Therefore my little theory of Rockenjima incidents is somewhat like a tragic story, in which something goes wrong unexpectedly, people acted out of defense and lack of knowledge of what is really happening. Sort of a mass murder without a mastermind.

Maybe, if what we see of Battler is indeed close to his real personality, maybe he's in the cathood of some minor conspiracy in Rockenjima. Then every plan and every conspiracy got muddled together, and he, like everyone, was forced to kill out of defense. Murder is not easy on the mind, so maybe that's why Touya is so reluctant of accepting his past of Battler.

But you know, sometimes I still have fun making (cracked) theory, and my favourite version is Evil Battler came back after 6 years with a secret plans to wreck havoc on the Uroshimiya family.


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Honestly I'm not really sure the explosive works as the VN depicted it but the base is depicted as having plenty of explosives and missiles stored in it so maybe there was no clock with a switch and a timer but surely you could blast the place just the same using something similar to what she used for the shrine and making it explode near to all the other explosives.

Really, I think Genji did the worst job possible in how he tattled out Kinzo's past to her... no wonder she was driven to madness...
I agree everything about Genji. Just like Gohda, there're so few information about him, and his action become more and more dubious, or stupid if you don't believe that he's somewhat evil.

The manga is really doing a good job, I wonder if Ryukishi realized what a mess EP8 is and decides to fix it here.

However, I think the "switch" one has a thematic significant in it. It is the kind of crazy bet, the golden magic based on taking tremedous risk that both Yasu and Kinzo relied on.

Well, it might not make many sense in real life, but as I say, it has some certain thematic significant.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because Kinzo needed to be MORE cartoonishly fucked up and over the top. Way to go, Ryukishi.


And truly, Kinzo is creepy, very creepy already, so I...won't put his past him to have a skeleton collection. Really. Nothing could one up the dude anymore for me.
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Old 2014-03-22, 20:31   Link #34147
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
To be honest, I have the trouble of forming motives for everyone, not just Battler. I could imagine some certain people killed some certain guy, but I cannot imagine any of them killing everyone with the limited information we have. (Some just can't do it if we trust the narration's depiction of them as somewhat close to the truth, and some...we're not given enough information about them to know what they are *coughGohdacough*) A bit ironic, since this story is supposed to be the "heart" after all.

Therefore my little theory of Rockenjima incidents is somewhat like a tragic story, in which something goes wrong unexpectedly, people acted out of defense and lack of knowledge of what is really happening. Sort of a mass murder without a mastermind.

Maybe, if what we see of Battler is indeed close to his real personality, maybe he's in the cathood of some minor conspiracy in Rockenjima. Then every plan and every conspiracy got muddled together, and he, like everyone, was forced to kill out of defense. Murder is not easy on the mind, so maybe that's why Touya is so reluctant of accepting his past of Battler.

But you know, sometimes I still have fun making (cracked) theory, and my favourite version is Evil Battler came back after 6 years with a secret plans to wreck havoc on the Uroshimiya family.
LOL, I like Black Battler as well. My theory was that he held the Ushiromiya responsible for Asumu's death because there was no mention about how she died and I thought this could mean that we would discover the how later on and this would be relevant (like... she killed herself due to Rudolf's infidelity and the Ushiromiya always knew Rudolf cheated her behind her back and covered up for him... or something on the theme). Also I had the feeling he liked Shannon and wasn't pleased George got her and Jessica supported George.

Of course this would have meant Battler was secretely cracked by the pain for the loss of his mother... which apparently didn't happen as far as Chiru is involved.

As for the others if things went similar to the teaparty well the opening of the fire was accidental.
Kyrie might have killed/tried to kill Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi because she felt they were dangerous. After all they were waving around guns, Eva was overly excited and had been even before shooting at Natsuhi and Rosa wasn't any better. One might think they would end up shooting again.

George and Jessica might have been collateral damage. If they suspected Kyrie and Rudolf killed the others they might have attacked them. Jessica is definitely the brash type so she would surely do it. The servants might have come to haid her and... well, be disposed off.

It would have been interesting though if George's death was unconnected to Rudolf and Kyrie but was the result of a brawl he had with Battler. Neither meant to kill the other but... unfortunate incidents happen and Ep 6 had the love couple battling each other. In Ep 6 it was Kanon who ended up being shot but what if in Prime it was George?

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
I agree everything about Genji. Just like Gohda, there're so few information about him, and his action become more and more dubious, or stupid if you don't believe that he's somewhat evil.

The manga is really doing a good job, I wonder if Ryukishi realized what a mess EP8 is and decides to fix it here.

However, I think the "switch" one has a thematic significant in it. It is the kind of crazy bet, the golden magic based on taking tremedous risk that both Yasu and Kinzo relied on.

Well, it might not make many sense in real life, but as I say, it has some certain thematic significant.
Genji's only excuse might be that as he lived through the war he... lost a certain sensibility to death. He didn't though Shannon could react to the tale because he saw far more dead corpses and somehow managed so... why Shannon shouldn't?

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And truly, Kinzo is creepy, very creepy already, so I...won't put his past him to have a skeleton collection. Really. Nothing could one up the dude anymore for me.
Well, to be honest it looks more like he never thought about picking up those poor corpses and give them some sort of burial. He just stored them in the base. Maybe he thought that was an appropriate tomb but still it's like living in a house built over a cemetery.
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Old 2014-03-22, 21:42   Link #34148
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"You know, we really could have cleaned up all these skeletons at some point in the last 40 years. I mean, we could've at least dug a big hole and dumped them all in it."

"And leave me high and dry if I ever need a human skeleton on short notice? Genji, there are some things you just don't do."
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Old 2014-03-22, 22:19   Link #34149
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That info about the manga is brilliant. But I've got to say...

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Guys, spoilers for Ep 8 manga version are out and it seems Kinzo kept in the underground base the skeletons of the dead soldiers
Maaaaan, the situation with Kinzo just keeps getting creepier and creepier. OK, the skeletons had to go somewhere I'm sure, but still, that is so very creepy.

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Really, I think Genji did the worst job possible in how he tattled out Kinzo's past to her... no wonder she was driven to madness...
I've been wanting to know more info about how Yasu went from the person we saw in ep 7 to a person who in theory could blow up the island, and I know that some people would prefer it if we weren't shown that period of time, but wow, that info about the base and Shannon seeing the skeletons seems important to me. Something like that, along with revelations about Kinzo's treatment of Beatrice 2, and Natsuhi's attempted murder of her and the nature of the injuries she suffered as a baby...I don't think it's beyond belief that Yasu could go a bit weird in the head. Especially given that Genji apparently introduces all this info to her in the worst possible ways. Hey, who wants to be the new master of an island with a secret mass murder scene base full of skeletons? Take a good look at them, they're awesome skeletons! Any takers?

It's a really different thing from the "I can't believe that Yasu would blow up the island just because she didn't have the guts to make a single phone call" situation.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"You know, we really could have cleaned up all these skeletons at some point in the last 40 years. I mean, we could've at least dug a big hole and dumped them all in it."

"And leave me high and dry if I ever need a human skeleton on short notice? Genji, there are some things you just don't do."
Sadly plausible...
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Old 2014-03-22, 23:53   Link #34150
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Well I guess I stepped on a mine with this one, trusting the author is kind of a taboo, but this isn't exactly what I meant.
Sorry. Rereading it I realize my post sounds angrier than I meant it. I'm not blowing up at you, I just feel frustrated that something I perceive as a double standard is in play regarding Kinzo-cest vs the Book of the One Truth. I mean there isn't even any red for pinning Yasu as Beato2's kid.

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Trusting the author does not mean 'have faith in his abilities as an author' because let's face it, Ryukishi is an amateur writer, and naturally, since he doesn't have an editor, his works have some 'technical' errors, neither does it mean to 'take whatever he says to heart'. To trust the author, in my opinion, means something like 'it can definitely be solved, so do your best and try to solve it'. What this means is that the canon solution is undoubtedly the intended solution that we were supposed to reach. But that solution only corresponds to the "fictional" stories of the message bottles. How much of this is true of Rokenjima... well, that, we will never know.
Your dividing line seems arbitrary to me, in terms of what is definitely a canon solution, and what is something presented from someone's perspective. I trust that there is an 'intended solution'. I trust that there are clues and hints meant to guide thinking towards it. I do not trust that the specific Kinzo-cest theory is in fact said intended solution, and have tried to lay out and support my alternative theories.

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I doubt that Eva would know about Kinzo's incest. Basically, our knowledge about it derives from the fictional stories. Yasu seems to suggest she is Kinzo's illegitimate child in EP1 and EP2, but interestingly enough, the first time anything about Kuwadorian Beatrice is mentioned and incest is hinted is in Battler's EP3.
I don't recall any hints that specifically suggest incest-babies in Ep 3. Unless you're pointing to the existence of Kuwadorian Beatrice as a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, which I strongly disagree with. It's not like anyone could call the existence of Kumasawa a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, now is it?

Quote:
Now, as to how on earth would Battler know something like that, I can't really say. It would be more reasonable if this was addressed in Yasu's stories, because she could have been told by Genji and the rest. The fact that Battler knows raises some questions about his role in Prime, but we can be certain of Kuwadorian Beatrice's existence because of Captain Kawabata's testimony in EP4.
There's a better solution that that, I think. I subscribe to the idea that Yasu did not die on the island, and that she's also the Hachijou woman. Yasu effectively wrote all 4 of the question arcs, and had discarded notes for Ep 5 that lead to Battler writing the answer arcs. Amnesia and the crazy-cat-lady nursing him back to health are lies that Battler told Ange to soften the blow of 'yeah, I was alive for years and never came for you.' I imagine the truth of that to be more along the lines of 'we decided to live in hiding off the gold money following the incident. We were scared of Eva or never thought your relationship would be so bad, or both, which is why we never came back.'

That, of course, is a whole 'nother argument. I'm clearly the champion of unpopular theories, huh?

Quote:
I think there is the difference that Eva has no source of knowledge about what took place in the rooms she couldn't observe, whereas Yasu must have been told where she came from by Genji.
Because games of telephone never distort things, right? Especially when we're dealing with someone who is as issue-laden and unbalanced as Yasu?

Genji: So you see, the late master truly thought of you as his child, just like the second Beatrice in Kuwadorian. He believed it for a long time, so certain encouragement about the riddle and other odd behaviors from him may start to make more sense...
Yasu: (quietly freaking out) OMG I'm an INCEST BABY!
Genji: Huh? What was that?
Yasu: Err- nothing! I'm Beatrcie! I AM THE GOLDEN WITCH REBORN!
Genji: Yes madam. Of course you are. As I was saying...

I wouldn't put it past that Yasu.

Quote:
Even if there was no infant at all, I'm not sure it's plausible that Kinzo would let his daughter unattended. Not necessarily because she would try to escape or was incapable of taking care of herself, but because for people like Kinzo, meaning, people with his social status (in context of the time period of course) it would seem like a necessity to have someone like that in the house. You wouldn't expect Kinzo's beloved daughter to have to clean the house herself or do her own laundry.
But that level of care doesn't require a constant live-in presence. Especially when there's the main mansion in walking distance. We never get stats per say, but I'm under the impression that Kuwadorian was much smaller than the main mansion, so cleaning would be quicker, and a single resident won't generate THAT much laundry. A recently born infant, however, would require constant live-in care, because babies just need that much attention pretty much all the time.

Let me be clear. I'm not suggesting that no one ever visited or even that there weren't regularly scheduled visits. A certain (small) amount of other people coming by on a regular basis is necessary.

I think there was no one else there at the time of Rosa's visit, because no other characters appeared or were mentioned as being nearby or displayed any sign of existence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is certainly grounds for some strong suspicion.

Quote:
That might have made for a pretty interesting character, but the text seems to suggest her most frequent and close attendand was Kumasawa. Certainly, it is an inadequacy in the writing that Kuwadorian Beatrice's situation is not adressed more explicitly, one that makes her story all the more unrealistic than it already is.

Yes, the lack of mention of somebody that might notice her escape might not actually support the existence of people in the mansion, but everything else does. It is unthinkable that there wouldn't be somebody there to take care of her, so her not mentioning anything must be purely strategical on Ryukishi's part to cloud her story in mystery since it's still pretty early in the story.
The other possibility is that she had grown to the point where Kinzo believed she could mostly take care of herself (day to day food preparations, etc.) and Genji and Kumasawa made regular visits but mostly stayed to the main mansion. After all, the more people who know a secret, the more likely it is to get out. It doesn't take a Goldsmith to figure that one out.

*****

Well, the way the ep8 Manga is going I may yet be eating crow on this, but I do intend to go down swinging. Someone should challenge Kinzo-cest, and it seems like no one else will.
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Old 2014-03-22, 23:57   Link #34151
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because Kinzo needed to be MORE cartoonishly fucked up and over the top. Way to go, Ryukishi.
I think this kinda sums up my position in an unintentional way. The popular interpretation of Kinzo is so cartoonish and over the top, when everyone else has these consistent, grounded depictions of both a good side and a bad side that I just can't wrap my mind around this level of crazy as the intended solution. A certain level of denial sets in to my mind as it goes further and further over the top.
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Old 2014-03-23, 02:13   Link #34152
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"You know, we really could have cleaned up all these skeletons at some point in the last 40 years. I mean, we could've at least dug a big hole and dumped them all in it."

"And leave me high and dry if I ever need a human skeleton on short notice? Genji, there are some things you just don't do."
Well, I admit that the potrayal of Kinzo is too over the top, and it's never like Ryukishi to be subtle in characterization, but maybe, you know, Kinzo just left things here and kinda too busy to move them. There should be a lot of skeletons and everything down here, after the war, Kinzo is truly busy in covering the incidents, hiding Beatrice 1, re-establishing the Uroshimiya empire, buying Rockenjima, hiding Beatrice II...so on and so far.

Maybe he actually had no time to move them away. Maybe he's too occupied to remember about them. Maybe he thought about moving them, but realised the process would take too much time and effort, together with unwanted attention which could raise more suspicion on the past incident on the island...Moreover, why should he care what happened to those guys anyways? in Kinzo mind, he probably hated them guts and/or found them very disgusting.

And at the end of his life, I think Kinzo was too broken to really mind what was happening around him, let alone those skeletons.

Of course this is based on the narration's interpretation of him. The real Kinzo may be just reallyyyy into bones, who knows?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As for the others if things went similar to the teaparty well the opening of the fire was accidental.
Kyrie might have killed/tried to kill Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi because she felt they were dangerous. After all they were waving around guns, Eva was overly excited and had been even before shooting at Natsuhi and Rosa wasn't any better. One might think they would end up shooting again.

George and Jessica might have been collateral damage. If they suspected Kyrie and Rudolf killed the others they might have attacked them. Jessica is definitely the brash type so she would surely do it. The servants might have come to haid her and... well, be disposed off.
That's what EP 7 Tea party made me think too. Rather than a mass-murder by some evil mastermind, it might just be a case of regettable misunderstanding. A series of unfortunate events you might say.

The problem with this theory, and what bugs me the most is: If it's true and nobody is guilty, there's no reason for people to be so adamant of keeping the truth a secret. If there's no culprits, why not just delcare so and clear the name and honour of everyone? Who are they covering for? Why do they have to hide the truth?

Oh well, I think I would wait for the manga to see if we got a somewhat different ending and a less controversial message.

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I think this kinda sums up my position in an unintentional way. The popular interpretation of Kinzo is so cartoonish and over the top, when everyone else has these consistent, grounded depictions of both a good side and a bad side that I just can't wrap my mind around this level of crazy as the intended solution. A certain level of denial sets in to my mind as it goes further and further over the top.
I think it's addressed in the novel too. Battler did explain to Ange that maybe that crazy OH DESIREEE Kinzo is just an over the top exaggeration of the old man based on the devilish image he had built for himself in the business world.

To think about it, it's really sad. The old man is just a blank canvas for everyone to put their thought into. Natsuhi saw an illusion of an understanding father-in-law. Battler (Ep 5) saw an old crazy but cool guy that he could relate too...Everything started from him, and at the end, everything about him becomes a big zero.

But again, being subtle is definitely not being Ryukishi.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post


I've been wanting to know more info about how Yasu went from the person we saw in ep 7 to a person who in theory could blow up the island, and I know that some people would prefer it if we weren't shown that period of time, but wow, that info about the base and Shannon seeing the skeletons seems important to me. Something like that, along with revelations about Kinzo's treatment of Beatrice 2, and Natsuhi's attempted murder of her and the nature of the injuries she suffered as a baby...I don't think it's beyond belief that Yasu could go a bit weird in the head. Especially given that Genji apparently introduces all this info to her in the worst possible ways. Hey, who wants to be the new master of an island with a secret mass murder .

Me too.
And I guess everybody wants to know too. There're some very big holes in the characterisation of Shkanonyasutrice that makes understand her very difficult.

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Old 2014-03-23, 06:43   Link #34153
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Me too.[/B] And I guess everybody wants to know too. There're some very big holes in the characterisation of Shkanonyasutrice that makes understand her very difficult.
Well, the manga is apparently filling that void. And I curse the fact that I don't have access to the magazine for the next month still, because I am in Germany right now and for some reason they are not doing an Ebook-version of it...
But, going by the scans that are there, I made translations of what we have so far from the current chapter (which does again make a lot of the speculative stuff clearer).

It's from this tumblr a few posts down. I can't get in touch with her (tried it a few times), if anybody wants to have a go, PLEASE try.
I hope it becomes clear what order (it's 2nd post first and from top to bottom in picture order).
Spoiler for Umineko EP8 chapter 26:


Even with the missing pages in between it's interesting what kind of light it casts on Yasu as well. She is clearly disturbed by all that which is put on her and while it makes her a little more culpable for the incident, let's face it, everybody would have been disturbed beyond belief by the info she got.

And at least we know that she tried "acting out" Kanon on the island. Maybe just as an attempt to see if "she" could live as a he and maybe to let out the rage verbally as well. But then Jessica caught a glimpse of "Kanon" and Yasu started spinning lies and stories and just got caught up...but in the end she actually did start having doubts whether Jessica might not be a safer choice.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
I think this kinda sums up my position in an unintentional way. The popular interpretation of Kinzo is so cartoonish and over the top, when everyone else has these consistent, grounded depictions of both a good side and a bad side that I just can't wrap my mind around this level of crazy as the intended solution. A certain level of denial sets in to my mind as it goes further and further over the top.
I think the new pages also imply that a lot of what we get is interpretation from Yasu's side.
Well yes, there is a room with a bunch of corpses dumped in it, but if we gave Kinzo the chance to speak out on it, which he can't anymore, he might give a completely different spin on it. I think, a lot he might have done in the heat of the moment and later got caught up in a similar web of lies as Yasu...
He could impossibly return the corpses to their families, since not only did the government cover up the existence of this base, the GHQ might have demanded to search the grounds and would have found the gold, possibly even found Bice.
Burying them overground would have meant taking the risk of being seen, or the risk of them being dug up, being washed into the ocean by a typhoon...they were "safest" in that underground tomb. And building his mansion on top of it meant nobody ever being able to find them.

They aren't GOOD or SANE reasons, but in a confused state Kinzo might have just gotten in over his head.

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Old 2014-03-23, 07:33   Link #34154
Kealym
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Whoa, thank you very much for posting the translation. The trend continues of the manga more or less confirming what was already accepted, just rather vague, previously.

And, about the bodies, I mean ... there's not much point in moving them, really?
All of those men should be known as casualties in the war, or loooong since missing, and almost anyone old enough to remember "there were some guys stationed on Rokkenjima, once" should be knocking on death's door by their age. Who's gonna go looking for them? Who's gonna stumble into that place by accident?
The farthest anyone seems to stray from the mansion is the occasional chapel cleaning by the servants, which Genji supervises (iirc) so nobody goes too near, probably.

There is, perhaps, adolescent Rosa, but ... ... I mean ... what's adolescent Rosa gonna do?
Ask her dad about all the dead people?
More likely half heartedly tell Genji and have it conveniently repressed in her little adolescent memory
.
If anything, the strange part now is why he bothered making a grand Gold Chamber that resembled a bedroom, as it requires moving an asston of gold bricks, and noone ever slept there.

... well, I guess Kinzo could have slept there on occasion.

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To think about it, it's really sad. The old man is just a blank canvas for everyone to put their thought into. Natsuhi saw an illusion of an understanding father-in-law. Battler (Ep 5) saw an old crazy but cool guy that he could relate too...Everything started from him, and at the end, everything about him becomes a big zero.
But he's not a blank slate. Everyone in the story knew this guy, and he has consistent traits that almost everyone tells us ; he's grumpy, outlandish and wild, but a very impressive (if a bit ruthless) businessman. He has high expectations for his kids, but doesn't treat them particularly well! He had a sort of reverse-weeaboo thing for western culture!

And we're told outright that the more strange characterizations we see (namely, Natsuhi's Kinzo, and Battler's fun-loving Kinzo) are lies they made up. Like, not even "my time with Kinzo was limited but this was my impression", but straight. Up. Lies, man.
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Old 2014-03-23, 08:32   Link #34155
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Whoa, thank you very much for posting the translation. The trend continues of the manga more or less confirming what was already accepted, just rather vague, previously.
I also kinda like how the scene between Yasu and George, where she (probably) imagines him going all apeshit on her, is kind of similar to Erika's story in a way. She didn't even bother to ask for a proper answer from that person but just assumed based on evidence.
I do wonder though if it might not have actually gone like that a little as well. I mean, are we honestly supposed to believe that in actual Rokkenjima (not crazy-fun-time-Golden-Land Rokkenjima) one of the cousins would have gone with their cousin/aunt?! They might have understood her, but I suppose a little bit of rage on George or Jessica's side would be expectable...

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And we're told outright that the more strange characterizations we see (namely, Natsuhi's Kinzo, and Battler's fun-loving Kinzo) are lies they made up. Like, not even "my time with Kinzo was limited but this was my impression", but straight. Up. Lies, man.
I don't know if they are complete lies. Natsuhi's Kinzo probably, but Battler's experience was at least partially based on experiences he had. Kinzo did show him the stakes when he got them and was apparently pretty gleeful when describing their demonic power to him...which freaked out little Battler quite a bit.
I also think that Kinzo-Genji friendship and Kinzo's boyish fascination with guns was not exagerated that much in the EP8 manga.

Maybe even the Halloween party bit was partially true, at least till 1985 when Kinzo stopped showing up...due to well, dying and stuff. Maybe loosing Lion made him realize that he really wanted to have a child to actually be around and be nice to and that's why he cherished his grandchildren so much.
His real children probably wouldn't let him in even if he tried to be nice, apart from him probably being to stubborn to actually go and say, "Hey, sorry for being an ass for a good 40-50 years".
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Old 2014-03-23, 09:16   Link #34156
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the manga is apparently filling that void. And I curse the fact that I don't have access to the magazine for the next month still, because I am in Germany right now and for some reason they are not doing an Ebook-version of it...
But, going by the scans that are there, I made translations of what we have so far from the current chapter (which does again make a lot of the speculative stuff clearer).
I love you right now. Really.

But then it is very much comfirmed to crossdress as Kanon huh? Well, I think I am in the minority here, but I have always hoped that Kanon is a, literature device or something in Yasu's tale and she might not really go around dressing as Kanon and two-timing her cousins....

...Because, Jessica, really. One is your closest maid (maybe friend too) and one is the guy you has the eyes on...And you cannot tell they have the same face, never in the same place together and well, they're more or less the same person? That always seems to test my suspension of disbelief. But if it's so comfirmed, I guess I have no other way but to swallow it.

It's also interesting that Yasu thought that Kinzo killed them all to "monopolize" the gold and Beatrice. Because while reading EP 7, something is always tickling in a corner of my mind, saying that if the incident and the gold is true, Kinzo might not be so innocent like he potrayed himself to Will.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
And, about the bodies, I mean ... there's not much point in moving them, really?
All of those men should be known as casualties in the war, or loooong since missing, and almost anyone old enough to remember "there were some guys stationed on Rokkenjima, once" should be knocking on death's door by their age. Who's gonna go looking for them? Who's gonna stumble into that place by accident?
I agree. That's why the details about the skeleton did not bother me too much, compared with all the things they have said about him before.

When I say Kinzo is a blank state, it's mostly because in the time period of the game, the guy is very much dead, so I'm kinda sorry for him to be used in every kind of conspiracy. Father did this Father did that, oh, it's probably our Grandfather again you know? After the incident, like most people in the Ushiromiya family, are used in different theories however the writer wants, based on external knowledge of them about Kinzo.
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Old 2014-03-23, 09:24   Link #34157
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Again though, the main issue here is that there doesn't seem to be any justification for murder, only suicide. Certainly it's understandable that this sort of thing would have an impact on someone's mental state, but what kind of person decides they're going to kill themselves by massive explosion at the point in time where as many people as possible are present on the island? Particularly all the ones who, you know, don't know all this nasty shit that Kinzo did. It's perfectly understandable to be shocked and angered by Kinzo's actions knowing what Yasu knows, and even to be disgusted with oneself out of some fear of association with him.

But what the fuck? "I'll wait for the conference, when I can kill over a dozen people in addition to myself" is basically a tremendously evil sort of thing to decide to do. Granted, there's always the strong possibility that this is precisely why Yasu couldn't do it in the end. I have trouble believing she lacks empathy or fears judgment to the extent that she'd be willing to murder basically everyone she knows for an obviously selfish end. It'd be one thing to conclude everyone else was complicit in Kinzo's crimes, but the structure of the story makes explicitly clear that not only aren't most of the family involved, they don't even know and they practically don't even like their father. There's no excuse.
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Old 2014-03-23, 09:39   Link #34158
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post

But what the fuck? "I'll wait for the conference, when I can kill over a dozen people in addition to myself" is basically a tremendously evil sort of thing to decide to do. Granted, there's always the strong possibility that this is precisely why Yasu couldn't do it in the end. I have trouble believing she lacks empathy or fears judgment to the extent that she'd be willing to murder basically everyone she knows for an obviously selfish end. It'd be one thing to conclude everyone else was complicit in Kinzo's crimes, but the structure of the story makes explicitly clear that not only aren't most of the family involved, they don't even know and they practically don't even like their father. There's no excuse.
I suggest we can only wait for more information from the manga, if any. Right now the hole is still to big to form any solid interpretation (and maybe judgement) of her action. And what did she really do? Organizing the fake murder? Spliting the gold? Flipping the switch of the bomb? Killing everyone while crackling maniaclly?

We don't know, really, I don't think we know.
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Old 2014-03-23, 09:46   Link #34159
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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
Sorry. Rereading it I realize my post sounds angrier than I meant it. I'm not blowing up at you, I just feel frustrated that something I perceive as a double standard is in play regarding Kinzo-cest vs the Book of the One Truth. I mean there isn't even any red for pinning Yasu as Beato2's kid.
No, it's alright, I didn't think you were blowing up at me or anything, I just noticed that what I had said was.... let's say clumsily stated. Trusting the author is dangerous to bring up in an Umineko forum...

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Your dividing line seems arbitrary to me, in terms of what is definitely a canon solution, and what is something presented from someone's perspective. I trust that there is an 'intended solution'. I trust that there are clues and hints meant to guide thinking towards it. I do not trust that the specific Kinzo-cest theory is in fact said intended solution, and have tried to lay out and support my alternative theories.
In that case, we could say that almost everyone's belief that EP7 about Yasu's backstory is the canon solution is arbitrary as well. Because EP7 is meant to give that canon solution and it starts from the Kuwadorian Beatrice.

Sure, I'm not saying there is absolutely no room to deny it, heck, there's plenty of room to deny even Yasu, or Rokenjima itself and everything else the way EP8 ended. And yes, an alternative theory, even forced, could work just as well, what I'm saying is that the incest is pretty much part of the canon solution.

And the manga (at least from haguruma's post) does make a point that a small part of Yasu's self-loathing also comes from being the child of such an asshole.

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I don't recall any hints that specifically suggest incest-babies in Ep 3. Unless you're pointing to the existence of Kuwadorian Beatrice as a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, which I strongly disagree with. It's not like anyone could call the existence of Kumasawa a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, now is it?
EP3 doesn't really touch incest, that's a fact. But I think, by reading between the lines of EP7 that it is supposed to lead you to this line of thinking: So, if Beatrice is dead, who is the culprit? Hmmm... what if she had a daughter? Or something. And there's also the fact that Kinzo perceived Beatrice's daughter as her reincarnation, that is enough to get you suspicious of incest.

As for Kumasawa's existence, no, of course, the fact that Kumasawa being there does not suggest Kinzo had sex with his daugther (unless of course the story had suggested Kumasawa is a person who likes to watch blood relatives having sex or something) but it would lead you to think that Kuwadorian Beatrice is Kinzo's illegitimate child whom he is raising in the secret mansion, or that Kumasawa is perhaps an accomplice, because she clearly knows a lot.

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There's a better solution that that, I think. I subscribe to the idea that Yasu did not die on the island, and that she's also the Hachijou woman. Yasu effectively wrote all 4 of the question arcs, and had discarded notes for Ep 5 that lead to Battler writing the answer arcs. Amnesia and the crazy-cat-lady nursing him back to health are lies that Battler told Ange to soften the blow of 'yeah, I was alive for years and never came for you.' I imagine the truth of that to be more along the lines of 'we decided to live in hiding off the gold money following the incident. We were scared of Eva or never thought your relationship would be so bad, or both, which is why we never came back.'
I really wouldn't like to touch the Yasu=Ikuko theory because.... there seem to be many things that are wrong with it. That way, the suicide scene is something like 'hey, Bats, let's forget about the witch crap and everything, give ourselves new names and go find a little house on the praire to have mental sex day and night, sounds great, doesn't it?'

And it raises serious question at Battler's integrity. Okay, Yasu isn't really integre and wouldn't have a reason to give a shit about Ange, but Battler would be a huge dick to abandon his little sister (and quite possibly letting Eva go through all the hell she did) while he carefreely spent the gold, hidden away with his girlfriend. What is more, instead of apologizing to her, he serves her a bunch of highly questionable lies to avoid having her justifiably beating him up.

And regardless of all that, it just seems like a huge distortion, I don't think it's a plausible answer at all.

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Because games of telephone never distort things, right? Especially when we're dealing with someone who is as issue-laden and unbalanced as Yasu?

Genji: So you see, the late master truly thought of you as his child, just like the second Beatrice in Kuwadorian. He believed it for a long time, so certain encouragement about the riddle and other odd behaviors from him may start to make more sense...
Yasu: (quietly freaking out) OMG I'm an INCEST BABY!
Genji: Huh? What was that?
Yasu: Err- nothing! I'm Beatrcie! I AM THE GOLDEN WITCH REBORN!
Genji: Yes madam. Of course you are. As I was saying...

I wouldn't put it past that Yasu.
Well... okay, but that would make for a really really dumb wanabe culprit.

And why would Kinzo think of Yasu as his child with no basis? Then again, don't anything past him...

Admittedly, Yasu could have possibly learned or interpreted some stuff wrong, but in this situation, Genji would perpahs try to explain everything to her as objectively as possible. And it's not like it's third-party testimony that distort things, Genji actually lived to witness all this so he is capable of painting a clear picture for her.

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But that level of care doesn't require a constant live-in presence. Especially when there's the main mansion in walking distance. We never get stats per say, but I'm under the impression that Kuwadorian was much smaller than the main mansion, so cleaning would be quicker, and a single resident won't generate THAT much laundry. A recently born infant, however, would require constant live-in care, because babies just need that much attention pretty much all the time.
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The other possibility is that she had grown to the point where Kinzo believed she could mostly take care of herself (day to day food preparations, etc.) and Genji and Kumasawa made regular visits but mostly stayed to the main mansion. After all, the more people who know a secret, the more likely it is to get out. It doesn't take a Goldsmith to figure that one out.
Kuwadorian Beatrice would need constant attention as well. First of all, even if she were mature enough to take care of herself, her status (by social standards of that time, and as far as Kinzo was concerned always) wouldn't really allow her to do all the dirty work herself. Important ladies of that time always had somebody to care for them, in older times, to get them dressed even. It's unthinkable that Kinzo wouldn't arrange for somebody to be there and care for his daughter.

And more importantly, Kinzo cannot be sure when something bad will happen to her. If it does, she can do nothing about it when she is alone. Sure, the mansion is a walking distance from there, but she can't get there, she can't even get out because of the wolve story and she doesn't even know it exists. Kinzo can't predict when an accident will happen, and I assume he has to tell his family some sort of excuse whenever he's gone (provided that he gives a tiny shit about what they think, of course). The point is, he can't be there 24 hours per-day, neither can he be sure how often he will be able to visit. Someone must have been there regardless of an incest baby.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because Kinzo needed to be MORE cartoonishly fucked up and over the top. Way to go, Ryukishi.
It's official, Scrooge McDuck is a much more well-written character than Ushiromiya Kinzo.

This really makes me wonder what Natsuhi and Krauss did with his body btw, because Yasu totally just carefreely slams it in the boiler and Natsuhi just acts surprised when he's found. Was he ever burried, to begin with, or did they just dump it in the ungerground passage with his war buddies:
Natsuhi:"Oh, what to do with Father's body?"
Genji:"Don't worry Madam, I know just the place where to put it"

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the manga is apparently filling that void. And I curse the fact that I don't have access to the magazine for the next month still, because I am in Germany right now and for some reason they are not doing an Ebook-version of it...
But, going by the scans that are there, I made translations of what we have so far from the current chapter (which does again make a lot of the speculative stuff clearer).
Wow! Thank you so much for this!

I'm kinda pissed now. Was this such hard a thing for Ryukishi to do in EP8? It's annoying because, everybody pretty much knew all that stuff, but it does offer some necessary insight on Yasu as a character. We never get to see her thought process or the experiences which led her to commit the crimes and yet the story goes on and on about how we should understand her heart. We defnitely know why she did it and her inner conflict in rough lines, but we can't be sure of how she felt without guessing tons of necessary backstory.
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Old 2014-03-23, 09:57   Link #34160
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the manga is apparently filling that void. And I curse the fact that I don't have access to the magazine for the next month still, because I am in Germany right now and for some reason they are not doing an Ebook-version of it...
But, going by the scans that are there, I made translations of what we have so far from the current chapter (which does again make a lot of the speculative stuff clearer).

It's from this tumblr a few posts down. I can't get in touch with her (tried it a few times), if anybody wants to have a go, PLEASE try.
I hope it becomes clear what order (it's 2nd post first and from top to bottom in picture order).
Spoiler for Umineko EP8 chapter 26:
You know how madly I love you for providing all those translations, don't you? Thank you so much!

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Even with the missing pages in between it's interesting what kind of light it casts on Yasu as well. She is clearly disturbed by all that which is put on her and while it makes her a little more culpable for the incident, let's face it, everybody would have been disturbed beyond belief by the info she got.

And at least we know that she tried "acting out" Kanon on the island. Maybe just as an attempt to see if "she" could live as a he and maybe to let out the rage verbally as well. But then Jessica caught a glimpse of "Kanon" and Yasu started spinning lies and stories and just got caught up...but in the end she actually did start having doubts whether Jessica might not be a safer choice.
Well, I'll say this definitely confirm Kanon 'existed' and it wasn't created just for those 2 days. Jessica believed him to be real and probably the same applies to the relatives as well.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think the new pages also imply that a lot of what we get is interpretation from Yasu's side.
Well yes, there is a room with a bunch of corpses dumped in it, but if we gave Kinzo the chance to speak out on it, which he can't anymore, he might give a completely different spin on it. I think, a lot he might have done in the heat of the moment and later got caught up in a similar web of lies as Yasu...
He could impossibly return the corpses to their families, since not only did the government cover up the existence of this base, the GHQ might have demanded to search the grounds and would have found the gold, possibly even found Bice.
Burying them overground would have meant taking the risk of being seen, or the risk of them being dug up, being washed into the ocean by a typhoon...they were "safest" in that underground tomb. And building his mansion on top of it meant nobody ever being able to find them.

They aren't GOOD or SANE reasons, but in a confused state Kinzo might have just gotten in over his head.
Yes, Kinzo might have stored all those corpses there and then... be unable to touch them out of regret and guilt. So he stort of closed them there in attempt to forget them entirely. Personally I would have burned them with Genji's help (or even better I would have had Genji burn them) but maybe he didn't feel up for it.
Sure thing Genji would have done better not to tell Yasu the whole truth. I guess it wouldn't have hurt let her think that Kuwadorian Beatrice wasn't Kinzo's daughter but that Bice was already pregnant when she met Kinzo and avoid showing her the corpses or telling her something nicer like... there was a gas leack in the base while the master and Beatrice were out and hum... people died.

I mean... hadn't he realized all that was too much for her all in a blow and completely useless for her to use to improve her life? It seems more like the act of someone who wants to clean his coscience from some huge weight and tattles everything out to the nearest person available.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I've been wanting to know more info about how Yasu went from the person we saw in ep 7 to a person who in theory could blow up the island, and I know that some people would prefer it if we weren't shown that period of time, but wow, that info about the base and Shannon seeing the skeletons seems important to me. Something like that, along with revelations about Kinzo's treatment of Beatrice 2, and Natsuhi's attempted murder of her and the nature of the injuries she suffered as a baby...I don't think it's beyond belief that Yasu could go a bit weird in the head. Especially given that Genji apparently introduces all this info to her in the worst possible ways. Hey, who wants to be the new master of an island with a secret mass murder scene base full of skeletons? Take a good look at them, they're awesome skeletons! Any takers?

It's a really different thing from the "I can't believe that Yasu would blow up the island just because she didn't have the guts to make a single phone call" situation.
Yes, the manga makes way more plausible for her to switch from shy maid to desperate 'let's blast it all' witch. With the look she has when she tested the explosives I can even believe her to be capable to try and shoot a person in cool blood.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
I don't recall any hints that specifically suggest incest-babies in Ep 3. Unless you're pointing to the existence of Kuwadorian Beatrice as a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, which I strongly disagree with. It's not like anyone could call the existence of Kumasawa a hint that Kinzo had sex with her, now is it?
Maybe Captain Bluebeard is referring to Beatrice's explanation at how her soul was moved from her own body to a cage of flesh twice. The most obvious interpretation of the whole story is the first Beatrice died and in Kinzo's mind her soul transferred to her daughter, then the second Beatrice died to and her soul was transferred in the same way.
It's not an obvious reference to incest, more like a subtle, interpretative implication so I don't know if that's what Captain Bluebeard is talking about.
Battler figured the story Beato told him is to be interpreted as Bice having a daughter and then dying and Kinzo ending up on closing that daughter in Kuwadorian and courting her until she too died. Battler stopped here in his reasoning but since we're told Beatrice's soul moved again and Kinzo was courting Kuwadorian Beatrice the next step would be assume she too had a baby and it's in that baby her soul moved.

Anyway the manga now confirmed that Yasu has Kinzo's blood in her so the best we can do is to doubt if Kuwadorian Beatrice was Kinzo and Bice's daughter and not the daughter of Bice and... let's say Ruben and, since Kinzo became Beatrice's lover when Beatrice's pregnancy had just started he assumed he was Kuwadorian Beatrice's father or decided to delude himself into thinking he was and that his Bice had no other man apart from him.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
There's a better solution that that, I think. I subscribe to the idea that Yasu did not die on the island, and that she's also the Hachijou woman. Yasu effectively wrote all 4 of the question arcs, and had discarded notes for Ep 5 that lead to Battler writing the answer arcs.
I'm fond of the idea of Ikuko being Yasu also and I've the feeling the manga will confirm it (though maybe it's just wishful thinking).

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
Amnesia and the crazy-cat-lady nursing him back to health are lies that Battler told Ange to soften the blow of 'yeah, I was alive for years and never came for you.' I imagine the truth of that to be more along the lines of 'we decided to live in hiding off the gold money following the incident. We were scared of Eva or never thought your relationship would be so bad, or both, which is why we never came back.'

That, of course, is a whole 'nother argument. I'm clearly the champion of unpopular theories, huh?
Well, I think that Battler had amnesia but it's also possible he had it after he was living with Yasu and planning not to show up in front of Ange. Or maybe after he was debating with Yasu if they should show up.
And Yasu took advantage of Battler's amnesia to try again to rebuild a relation with him and have a life in which they could fit.
Maybe she thought it was better for them both. She didn't feel up like showing herself and her story to the outside world and Battler wouldn't have to deal with painful memories and Eva can keep the inheritance and Ange have a replacement mom.
So yeah, let's call Battler Tohya and feed him with a story and live happily with him.
Ikuko seems really happy in the manga to have Tohya around so maybe her new life did good to Yasu and she wasn't keeping herself up to date about what happened to Ange and Tohya seemed all right too so...
She probably started having second thought when Ange showed up demanding to see Tohya and Tohya started remembering things and throwing fits but by then it was too late.
Ep 4 ending might be seen as she and Tohya having a huge argument in which she thought she lost him again and he would remember and return to Ange... (who's probably disappeared) which ends more or less in Ep 5/6 with Tohya remembering but deciding to stay with her.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
Well, the way the ep8 Manga is going I may yet be eating crow on this, but I do intend to go down swinging. Someone should challenge Kinzo-cest, and it seems like no one else will.
LOL, actually Kinzo-cest was challenged in the past but in the end I think people surrendered to the piling up of evidence supporting it.

Like we discussed about how Kanon might not have existed and now the manga confirmed Jessica actually saw him and assumed he was his own person. Or the long discussions we had about why Erika in Ep 5 didn't notice that in the parlour not everyone was present (Kanon or Shannon should have been missing) and the manga confirmed one of them was missing and explained how the trick worked.

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
That's what EP 7 Tea party made me think too. Rather than a mass-murder by some evil mastermind, it might just be a case of regettable misunderstanding. A series of unfortunate events you might say.

The problem with this theory, and what bugs me the most is: If it's true and nobody is guilty, there's no reason for people to be so adamant of keeping the truth a secret. If there's no culprits, why not just delcare so and clear the name and honour of everyone? Who are they covering for? Why do they have to hide the truth?

Oh well, I think I would wait for the manga to see if we got a somewhat different ending and a less controversial message.
I think the truth is that there was a problem in perspective.
Eva claims she shoots Natsuhi accidentally and she knows this is true but Kyrie might not believe her. She might think Eva is making excuses for deliberately shooting Natsuhi in point blank rage and greed and think that Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa, to satisfy their greed, would soon shoot them too so she shoot them first.

As Eva knows she didn't do it out of greed she thinks it's obvious to everyone and that if Kyrie is shooting them is because SHE IS THE GREEDY ONE.

Ergo to Eva Kyrie shoot everyone out of greed. As Kyrie died the truth died with her... or she might have confessed to Eva (she said something we didn't heard) but Eva didn't know if she was truthful or not so basically although the book of one truth contains the truth about the facts the why is missing.

In a way it's a situation very similar to the one of Shannon and Battler. Shannon thinks Battler was never serious in her regards and probably has countless girls out of Rokkenjima when Battler actually looked at her as his first love, hadn't forgotten her, is secretly jealous of how George got her and neve had another girlfriend. In fact he thinks of getting one after he sees that Shannon is dating another. It is also subtly implied that if Shannon hadn't lost faith and had waited for him he probably would have resumed his relationship with her.

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Me too. And I guess everybody wants to know too. There're some very big holes in the characterisation of Shkanonyasutrice that makes understand her very difficult.
I think the real problem is that her situation is so over the top and uncommon that it's hard to picture what one would do in all that if things are too vague. Seeing her suffering in those years and all she had to deal with (honestly I didn't think Kinzo kept those skeletons and Genji would show them to her) as the manga showed it helps much more to get a better grasp on why she got so mad with grief she did something that desperate.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But he's not a blank slate. Everyone in the story knew this guy, and he has consistent traits that almost everyone tells us ; he's grumpy, outlandish and wild, but a very impressive (if a bit ruthless) businessman. He has high expectations for his kids, but doesn't treat them particularly well! He had a sort of reverse-weeaboo thing for western culture!

And we're told outright that the more strange characterizations we see (namely, Natsuhi's Kinzo, and Battler's fun-loving Kinzo) are lies they made up. Like, not even "my time with Kinzo was limited but this was my impression", but straight. Up. Lies, man.
I wouldn't call Battler's Kinzo a lie, more like a favourable interpretation. We can see how Battler works already in Ep 1. Kyrie basically obviously wants to use him to have Maria tattle out who handed her the letter and instead of feeling used and thinking Kyrie is also using Maria and that her reproaching of the way adults has handled Maria was more out of the fact it was a fail than out of the fact it was mean he's all 'oh, thank you, Kyrie-san. You surely came up with this plan to cheer me up and help Maria being understood by the adults, not because you're shamelessly trying to use me and Maria to help you with your goals'.

So maybe PrimeKinzo showed him the stakes because he deliberately wanted to scare him to death because he was mean like that with a small kid and Battler thought: oh, grandad only wanted to joke with me and as I was a child I didn't understand it... but he really wanted only to be nice.

Battler's gentle interpretation is interesting because it clashes beautifully with the public opinion's cruel interpretation who's likely also over the top and not really 'Kinzo'.

We get a Kinzo who probably was in the middle between the two interpretations, not quite a monster but not even a loving grandad.

More likely an odd and selfish person... who can be cruel, can be scary but can also have good moments in which he handed Yasu candies and chatted with Genji friendly.
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