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Old 2009-07-30, 15:22   Link #41
Lio
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I don't think it's a lack of attraction to real women that causes these men to abandon their pursuit of "3-d love".
Yep. It should give him motivation though.
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Old 2009-07-30, 19:50   Link #42
mg1942
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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
meh hes not out gunning down random citizens and hes not hurting anyone let em be.
you may think they're innocuous to society, but for me i'd keep my eye on them...
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:36   Link #43
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I wonder why Japan's population is shrinking?
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:08   Link #44
Kylaran
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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
It's not just Japan's otaku culture. If you look at America, the divorce rate is well over 50%. Because of what the shape of today's society people have lost touch with how to live. And nobody's there to show them the way out, that's all. As I like to say: We gained technology, but lost a whole lot of wisdom.
I never said it the problem lies in otaku culture. I said the problem is bigger than that. And what makes you think they "lost touch with how to live?" If anything, I see it as a discovery of a new way of living, just one that's incompatible with the traditional views of society and the individuals place. It's not that we've lost wisdom when we gained technology, it's that we gained technology and realized things about ourselves that's always been there by letting it shape us.

The correct way of doing something is not necessarily the right way, it is those who dictate the correctness that determine its acceptance as right or wrong. Now, I'm not saying he's free to ignore this behavior as as potentially problematic, but that it's dangerous to say living (properly) is defined a certain way. We don't have the same limitations on social activity that we did a hundred years ago in developed nations - an individual doesn't need children to manage the farm and take care of them when they're much older (to a certain extent, of course) in order to survive. People can now "see" the world through their computers and live off fast food without needing to develop previously critical skills to success. Now, there certainly are things being lost here, such as previously and, for some, currently valued skills and abilities that can also be highly prized. But just because these skills were previously valued does not mean they were necessarily the right way to live.

Quote:
I don't think he gives a shit about anything anymore. XD Not caring what other people think... well, at least that's kind of admirable.

Though a hot lap dance might spark his interest in real girls again. Maybe.
He said himself he would still like to get married. It's not a question of sexual drive, as it could well be that he is capable of being turned on by real women, but so much that the idealized fantasies of romance and emotions that are combined with the sexual ones have been dashed by practicality: he's disenchanted with reality, not completely oblivious of it.

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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
you may think they're innocuous to society, but for me i'd keep my eye on them...
Not everyone who does socially unacceptable or strange things is necessarily out of their minds; to treat them as such is to potentially misdiagnose the situation.

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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
I wonder why Japan's population is shrinking?
This phenomenon is so small it likely has very little to do with the shrinking population. In other countries, such as Italy, the population is growing older largely because of education for women, more opportunities for careers, and less desire to settle down and start a family early. Japan is the same. Even China is seeing a reduction in birth rates among women in the bigger cities, and it's still a developing country, although the population growth there is still large.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:12   Link #45
Irenicus
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Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be~

My view. Though that guy has a strange kind of courage to do what he does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
I wonder why Japan's population is shrinking?
In the same manner as other developed countries which are seeing their demographics shrinking if one discounts immigration...?

Pressures of modern life, changing social mechanics, new personal aspirations, new economic systems that render children as financial burdens rather than assets, all bring about a great decline in birthrate. Even the USA shares that trend though it is masked and compensated by vibrant immigration. Japan is virtually unique in all the developing countries for its vehement anti-immigration policy that exacerbates the problem; its xenophobia is not unique though, consider how Turks are viewed in Germany or the resurgence of racists like BNP in Britain.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:21   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
I wonder why Japan's population is shrinking?
Well this sort of thing has little, if no effect on the shrinking population of Japan.

Japan is facing problems that other developing nations are facing. All developing countries have lowering fertility rates, and its a problem of varying degrees. The liberation of women, higher ages of marriage, the cost of raising and educating children, can all be linked to the problem, but its certainly not due to the small minority of people who are like the man in this story.

If anything the biggest problem for Japan is that it refuses immigration. Immigration is the lifeblood of countries like America, Canada, Australia and Europe, as It provides young people (with babies) and workers that both produce goods and consume them. This in turn helps the economy and culture stay alive in these countries. Japan needs new ideas, cultures, languages, and such to enliven the country.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:33   Link #47
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This is the first time I've heard someone have done such a thing. It's unbelievable, but nevertheless, I don't like the feedback that he gets from society. Just leave him alone or accept him on some scale. However(as harsh as it's true) we all accept the fact that we feel glad to not be this guy. I like Relentless's post; kudos and well said.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:03   Link #48
Lio
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Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
I never said it the problem lies in otaku culture. I said the problem is bigger than that. And what makes you think they "lost touch with how to live?" If anything, I see it as a discovery of a new way of living, just one that's incompatible with the traditional views of society and the individuals place. It's not that we've lost wisdom when we gained technology, it's that we gained technology and realized things about ourselves that's always been there by letting it shape us.

The correct way of doing something is not necessarily the right way, it is those who dictate the correctness that determine its acceptance as right or wrong. Now, I'm not saying he's free to ignore this behavior as as potentially problematic, but that it's dangerous to say living (properly) is defined a certain way. We don't have the same limitations on social activity that we did a hundred years ago in developed nations - an individual doesn't need children to manage the farm and take care of them when they're much older (to a certain extent, of course) in order to survive. People can now "see" the world through their computers and live off fast food without needing to develop previously critical skills to success. Now, there certainly are things being lost here, such as previously and, for some, currently valued skills and abilities that can also be highly prized. But just because these skills were previously valued does not mean they were necessarily the right way to live.
I don't mean culturally or socially "correct" or "right." Nor skills or abilities. I'm talking about basic human nature that haven't changed for thousands of years. Primal Simplicity, as I like to call it. The wisdom that spiritual teachers have known for millenniums.

Even though technology changed the details of our lives we're still pretty much the same inside. So when things conflict with or deny our human nature and disrupt our natural inner harmony (as it is with the majority of people), you get people who are stressed out, generally dissatisfied with life, or people who are just plain fucked up.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:08   Link #49
autobachs
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For me I'd say "let it be" for these guys... for as long as they are outside my circle.

My circle = friends, best friends, family

If I ever find out the people within my circle become shut-in pedophiles like those people described on NY Times I will go INTERVENTION on them. If they refuse professional help I will disassociate with them and keep 'em away from my inner circle (my siblings, cousins, family).
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:17   Link #50
FateAnomaly
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I would probably let them be. Its probably the only thing that is keeping them from going crazy. They are still better than those who actually prey on RL girls but kept a low profile so people turn a blind eye to them.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:34   Link #51
Kylaran
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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
I don't mean culturally or socially "correct" or "right." Nor skills or abilities. I'm talking about basic human nature that haven't changed for thousands of years. Primal Simplicity, as I like to call it. The wisdom that spiritual teachers have known for millenniums.

Even though technology changed the details of our lives we're still pretty much the same inside. So when things conflict with or deny our human nature and disrupt our natural inner harmony (as it is with the majority of people), you get people who are stressed out, generally dissatisfied with life, or people who are just plain fucked up.
The point of contention lies in the definition of "what's the same inside," and I'm saying this means human nature itself is not immediately obvious. It's debatable whether this "inside" has properly manifested itself in human behavior in the past; just because sages of the past have believed in something (such as the absurdity of loving a 2-D object) does not necessarily define it as human nature. In fact, unexpected behavior leaves the question of whether or not the true workings of our inner-selves are actually different than we've held them to be.

Stress, dissatisfaction, or the state of being "fucked up" is already questionable in description if the behavior is presumed to be irregular based on previously established norms (that are themselves of curious origin). If stress is natural, then why is it generated because of a conflict with human nature? And what's wrong with dissatisfaction with life if the current system of living life has its flaws? If it's possible to feel both anxiety for both living and not living life in accordance with society's rules, then doesn't that say something about how an individual's true nature is not defined by either? Rather than being an affirmation of what is understood as integral to the human experience, it becomes an issue worth looking deeper into.

Finding that the actions of the man in the article as unacceptable could very well be a product of societal expectations - and not necessarily human nature - which in turn means some (such as myself) come to personally object the idea that these individuals are complete wackos that may need help.

As others have said before me, an acceptance of irregular (harmless) behavior is the best way to go, in my consenting opinion. Mostly for the reason that it may further shed light on our understanding of the relationship of the individual with society, it is better to not hastily brand such actions as problematic.

My apologies for the disagreement, by the way. I don't mean to act hostile in any way shape or form.
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Old 2009-07-31, 00:05   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
Even China is seeing a reduction in birth rates among women in the bigger cities, and it's still a developing country, although the population growth there is still large.
Not going to drag this one, for I don't really care. However, using China as an example is rather absurd is it not? They do after all, have a birth control rate and limit of child birth per house hold. Or maybe that was awhile ago and they completely changed and I didn't get updated. I don't pay too much attention to China, I can care less about them.
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Old 2009-07-31, 01:48   Link #53
Lio
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Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
Stress, dissatisfaction, or the state of being "fucked up" is already questionable in description if the behavior is presumed to be irregular based on previously established norms (that are themselves of curious origin). If stress is natural, then why is it generated because of a conflict with human nature? And what's wrong with dissatisfaction with life if the current system of living life has its flaws? If it's possible to feel both anxiety for both living and not living life in accordance with society's rules, then doesn't that say something about how an individual's true nature is not defined by either? Rather than being an affirmation of what is understood as integral to the human experience, it becomes an issue worth looking deeper into.

Finding that the actions of the man in the article as unacceptable could very well be a product of societal expectations - and not necessarily human nature - which in turn means some (such as myself) come to personally object the idea that these individuals are complete wackos that may need help.

As others have said before me, an acceptance of irregular (harmless) behavior is the best way to go, in my consenting opinion. Mostly for the reason that it may further shed light on our understanding of the relationship of the individual with society, it is better to not hastily brand such actions as problematic.
Well, the reason the current system of living life has flaws is because society as a whole is disconnected from human nature (what I call wisdom). Not many people know that there is a way out though. How many people do you know who are completely free and happy, who are totally unconstrained by societal expectations? And I mean really, satisfied. I'd say less than 1% of the population are truly free and happy. It seems to me they're out of touch with their nature. And the 1%? They're not the people with alot of "stuff." People are brainwashed by society into believing they need "stuff" to be happy. That's what I mean by people who are out of touch with their nature. Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied.

There's nothing problematic about people with irregular harmless behavior, and of course accepting their harmless behavior is the sensible thing to do. I'm saying that what you might call "irregular behavior" is really the result of being lost in technology (both physical and societal) and losing touch with basic human nature, your natural state of being.

If he's disenchanted by reality but not oblivious of it, if he'd like to get married but lives the life he does... it's obvious to me but, something's out of harmony wouldn't you say?
Of course, there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2009-07-31, 02:00   Link #54
Irenicus
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And just what is this universal natural state of being?

The closest thing I could think of is that we should all be nudists, after all that is the most natural state. Yet it is "abnormal," how dare civilization declares its dominion over nature!

I do not deny that there are certain characteristics that the vast majority our awesome species seem to be predisposed to, that our biological functions work similarly, that these can be manifested in the civilizations that we create, etc., etc. But you see, Kylaran's point is that the sages of the past do not know everything: they, just like us, are the product of an era, of their immediate environments, and their insight to this human nature thing is as limited as we are. Mr. Otaku and his love for a fluffy fantasy might as well be another expression of a "hidden" side of the Nature of Man (and Pillow), previously inaccessible to the ancient sages because Confucius didn't have an anime pillow to ponder upon. After all, the very concept of individual psychology itself is quite new comparatively speaking.

So declaring that he is firmly "abnormal" by the standards of human nature is difficult to validate at best. That he is abnormal by societal standards is rather obvious, though.
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Old 2009-07-31, 02:41   Link #55
Kylaran
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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
...Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied.
This presupposes that freedom is a requirement for happiness and satisfaction, both of which are biological states that can be trained to respond to pre-established cultural expectations, but something which is a bit beyond the scope of this thread and more than I think both you and I should talk about here at this moment.

I can see where you're coming from, but I do have some other personal points to make. If you're ever interested in discussing, I'd be glad to talk it out somewhere else.

Quote:
There's nothing problematic about people with irregular harmless behavior, and of course accepting their harmless behavior is the sensible thing to do. I'm saying that what you might call "irregular behavior" is really the result of being lost in technology (both physical and societal) and losing touch with basic human nature, your natural state of being.

If he's disenchanted by reality but not oblivious of it, if he'd like to get married but lives the life he does... it's obvious to me but, something's out of harmony wouldn't you say?
Of course, there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not sure if he's disenchanted by reality - he has a job, he eats, drinks, and survives. It's specifically the romance aspect of it that has significantly changed. I can understand dissatisfaction resulting in irregular behavior and is an indicator of the problem, but without a way to say whether they've lost harmony, or if they've actually achieved this "harmony" (to use your vocabulary) in a way we never though possible is entirely feasible in my eyes. Perhaps it's more like his understanding of what should constitute the romantic portion of his life that seems to be "out of harmony." But then again, freedom and satisfaction in his romantic life (assuming he enjoys his current state, and that his desire for marriage is due to other, perhaps biological, causes) could mean he has achieved happiness. Again, this is quite ambiguous.

Of course, this further goes into definitional issues that underlies thought experiment after thought experiment regarding the basic nature of humankind, but my point here is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
So declaring that he is firmly "abnormal" by the standards of human nature is difficult to validate at best. That he is abnormal by societal standards is rather obvious, though.
It would be very interesting to see if this behavior comes across as universal as it develops. There's some evidence of it, and it really brings to question if we're being controlled by materialism, or if materialism is simply a method of bringing out who we are.

It's most likely the former than the latter, since materialism isn't necessarily a biological function inherent in mankind, but, hey, it's always good to think about it.
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Old 2009-07-31, 03:00   Link #56
Lio
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
And just what is this universal natural state of being?

The closest thing I could think of is that we should all be nudists, after all that is the most natural state. Yet it is "abnormal," how dare civilization declares its dominion over nature!

I do not deny that there are certain characteristics that the vast majority our awesome species seem to be predisposed to, that our biological functions work similarly, that these can be manifested in the civilizations that we create, etc., etc. But you see, Kylaran's point is that the sages of the past do not know everything: they, just like us, are the product of an era, of their immediate environments, and their insight to this human nature thing is as limited as we are. Mr. Otaku and his love for a fluffy fantasy might as well be another expression of a "hidden" side of the Nature of Man (and Pillow), previously inaccessible to the ancient sages because Confucius didn't have an anime pillow to ponder upon. After all, the very concept of individual psychology itself is quite new comparatively speaking.

So declaring that he is firmly "abnormal" by the standards of human nature is difficult to validate at best. That he is abnormal by societal standards is rather obvious, though.
I'm talking about our natural emotional state, which was in my previous post:

Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied.

This isn't something that you think about intellectually. It's what you understand when you let go of everything, and just relax into it. This is what the sages (eg Jesus and Buddha, not Confucius) knew that most don't. People are so trapped in their own minds about what they believe, think and whatnot that nobody takes the time to let it all go, let everything go, and just feel what remains. That, is your natural state of being. The more out of touch people are with that, the more "irregular" or "abnormal" they will become because of the thoughts brainwashed into them by society. Though it's really less "abnormal" but more "dysfunctional", which is how I see pillow otakus who dream of marriage and societies with high divorce rates anyway.

Societies that threw away wisdom and loses itself in technology, thus becoming dysfunctional, creates "dysfunctional" people like that otaku. It's perfectly fine though.
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Old 2009-07-31, 03:42   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied.
That's merely your point of view. Plenty of other people would otherwise agree with Thomas Hobbes: "The life of man (is) solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

His fuller quote from the Leviathan.
Quote:
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of War, where every man is enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
In essence, Hobbes argued that Man must be governed. Left to his own devices, violent conflict is bound to ensue because of the neverending competition for resources. We would have anarchy, where only the mightiest would survive.

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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
This isn't something that you think about intellectually. It's what you understand when you let go of everything, and just relax into it. This is what the sages (eg Jesus and Buddha, not Confucius) knew that most don't. People are so trapped in their own minds about what they believe, think and whatnot that nobody takes the time to let it all go, let everything go, and just feel what remains. That, is your natural state of being.
Not that there is no merit in what you're saying, but that you should at least be aware that the above represents only your idealised point of view of what constitutes our so-called "natural state".
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Old 2009-07-31, 04:18   Link #58
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Ugh.. the presentation is somewhat scandalous and I get the impression that the author does not really understand the sub-culture, with some oversimplifications such as
Quote:
In Japan the fetishistic love for two-dimensional characters is enough of a phenomenon to have earned its own slang word, moe
I also find what relentless said worrisome as well:
Quote:
The author’s decision to go into graphic detail about the content of some of the more risqué pillow covers also left me thinking that she didn’t have to state it so provocatively, but that’s also probably what got it published. From an American media perspective, it’s nearly a codeword for starting a witchhunt, and I’d be a bit concerned when some American parent reads this article and then realizes that their kid owns a body pillow cover or a figure and sends them straight to counselling.
I'm not sure if there's even an appropriate way at all to introduce or expose the general audience to fringes and fetishes of any subculture without some grave misunderstanding or inciting a lot of hate or prejudice.
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Old 2009-07-31, 04:24   Link #59
SaintessHeart
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There has always been a witchhunt for the socially different. It is just a way of society trying to "utopise" itself.
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Old 2009-07-31, 07:00   Link #60
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
It's most likely the former than the latter, since materialism isn't necessarily a biological function inherent in mankind, but, hey, it's always good to think about it.
One could also theorize [keyword: theorize] that human nature isn't some static set of characteristics -- and hence both Hobbes and Lio's sages are wrong to assume so -- but rather a set of tendencies. Applied to a specific environment, even one with the barest trappings of a society, the same set of tendencies can produce very different results. Something like the phenotype-genotype relationship, though even more unstable and not an exclusively biological process.

So abstract concepts like "need for company" can mean a hunter and his trusty dog in one society and an otaku and his beloved pillow girl in another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied.
Is it? Considered as biological machines, humans are very much imperfect. Insanely, almost incomprehensibly complex, working far better than such a massive mess should, yet flawed and often fatally so. Can such a machine, even when left alone to do the most basic of tasks at the lowest power state, run smoothly? Are we naturally predisposed to freedom, happiness, satisfaction?

That's not an easy question to answer. You argue that Jesus and Buddha represent the achievements of these ideals [note: ideals], yet to me, using the lens of a historian, the figure of Jesus is a martyred Jewish leader who speaks of apocalypses, paradises, and redemption -- something that occurs repeatedly throughout history whenever a people is reduced to desperation, actually; the Yellow Turbans of Han China, countless peasant leaders in the hellhole that was Medieval Europe, even the Boxer Rebellion as late as the 19th century, and of course Islamic extremism. That his message was one far milder than fellow martyrs, that his followers reshaped it to suit the circumstances as they needed, and that luck and charisma and, for the believers, God's will, helped propel the movement into a religion of world prominence does not mean that his was a free, happy, satisfied existence, nor that the mildness of his message necessarily implied what you meant to imply.

On the contrary, the message of pre-modern Christianity, at least one that eventually became prominent, was almost a darkly desperate one: live in meekness and goodness in this life, but expect your payoff in heaven. Not in a happy, satisfied life in this world -- in heaven.

Buddha, meanwhile, was one sage who spoke in the Hindu religious tradition. Yes, it was distinct, yet the worldview of the original Buddhism was closely related to Brahmic traditions at the time. At odds, perhaps, deliberately -- one of early Buddhism's appeals was its rejection of the caste system -- yet interrelated. Buddhism did not argue for a happy, natural, carefree life. Its philosophical position was that one should abandon all emotions, all ties -- negative and positive -- not to achieve a content natural state but to achieve a higher, different, unnatural level of liberation: the elusive "Nirvana," to Mahayana Buddhists a heaven of some kind, to Theravada Buddhists freedom from existence, freedom, that is, from the natural cycle.

Oh, and just to mention, meditation isn't nearly as easy as it looks. If anything it is a very deliberate, unnatural process, something that require effort and learning to master.

Buddha and Jesus might be beloved figures, they might have argued against certain excesses of human behavior, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone from admiring them, but I don't think they say what you think they say.
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