[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[MetalGearFlaccid]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I'll say it as many times as I have to. They're not.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...2&postcount=10

I almost expected you to respond to that first, lol. I've noticed over the year that I've been a member how against that idea you are. (No, I wasn't baiting, but I bet you would respond.)

No. I don't think they are the same person; that's been thrown out by everyone a while ago. Being connected and being the same person are two different things. I think there is a link between them. They are not the same character, but they definitely have a strong relation/are connected.
Though, since Bern mentioned Oyashiro-sama, that at least helps my theory that at least the universes are connected.

[Yopee]

Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95

Here's something I've been thinking of while I was unloading the dishwasher. It'd have to go over the theory that Higurashi and Umineko are in the same universe, but maybe this will probably help out with other theories and what-not.

Spoiler for Bernkastel = Very lengthy.:

Alright, let's think of Yasu's situation here. Her life sucks. Plain and simple. As she was working she only had Shannon (who is rumored to be a complete imaginary friend) Then one day Yasu discovers things about magic and witches (probably because Kinzo's a fanatic, and she must've come across some occult books while cleaning the library) and she is fascinated by the things of witches. She imagines Gaaptrice tormenting her and what-note. (Me and my sister Lulu do this sometimes. We imagine anime characters "hanging" out with us. I know it's crazy, but it helps with inside jokes between me and my sister. We like to roleplay alot.) Anyway, Yasu's life continually goes down the drain I guess, then decides, "I want to be a witch!!!1!" and "becomes" a witch. In other words, she imagines herself as one. She runs around unlocking doors and windows to prank the servants and make them think a witch is about.

Now think a little about how so far I think of how witches come to be. Beatrice the Witch came from Yasu's imagination, Virgilia is only based off of Kumasawa so she's still "imaginary". As for every other witch they're "birth" is completely unknown, so we have no evidence whether their imaginary or not.

Okay, now how about an Umineko Rika? A Rika who is not the Higurashi Rika but is really based off her. Just a coincidence they're almost the same. Yasu and Rika are almost the same age when Yasu starts working as a maid. Now I KNOW Yasu is the only maid with that age (She thinks she's 6, but is really 9, so..) so Rika didn't go there. Suppose Yasu got the idea of "imagining" a witch from a different girl? What if a girl she knew from Fukuin went:

Girl: I'm a witch named Bernkastel! Nipah!
Yasu: ._. *walks away slowly*

When Yasu began to "be a witch", she decided to create a form for Bernkastel, because the girl who "already was a witch" inspired her from the beginning.

I know this is extremely stupid, but I am just thinking out loud here. And also maybe Yasu just read the novel "Higurashi" and based a witch after the character Rika. Simple as that.

Lol, really stupid theory above. Be very afraid. xD

haha I'll support you just for the lulz.

Two other ways Yasu could have come into contact with Higurashi Rika:
Battler has read Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni. Battler and Yasushannon exchange books to read. Battler may have read Higurashi and gave it to Yasushannon or vice versa.
Maria watches Higurashi on tv. Yasushannon plays with Maria often, may have talked about tv shows she watches.

[AuraTwilight]

Do you know what it means for something to be meta-fiction?

Meta-fiction is something which is allowed to be self-referential or breaking of the fourth wall as part of it's narrative. Notice characters have made references impossible to make in 1986? Just because Higurashi has been referenced as a novel doesn't actually mean anything; what if Higurashi happened in a separate kakera, but that kakera exists as a novel in Battler's world? This is an idea called Solipsistic Pantheism, a speculative fiction trope that universes are real because authors wrote about them, or that fictions exist to be written about because they already exist. Stories have been built on this premise, infact.

But I digress. The fact of the matter is that Umineko is a story where things like the Meta-World can simultaneously be paperwritten fiction in 1998 and also be a higher platonic plane of thought. It's a story where the author can be challenged and defied by his characters, and characters can defy their stories and fates to try and write their own ending.

Meta-fiction is a genre wherein "fiction" and "reality" are treated as matters of degree, not polar, dualistic opposites.

As for Bern and Rika: They are not synonymous, but they are related. Bernkastel is most likely an entity derived from Rika. A memetic aggregate personification of all the "failures" of Furude Rika, now dissociated from her because she is no longer required as an observer or as a higher guardian angel-type entity. Rika's story is over, so Bern can no longer claim to be an aspect of her.

[Jan-Poo]

I still don't see any real evidence that the Bernkastel we see in umineko originated from a girl named Rika.

The evidences I see rather show that Bernkastel was a piece in a story created by featherinne, a story that didn't make any sense. Also there are several hints that Bern's true nature is that of a cat. Which means in the story Featherinne created she was a cat.

The Rika interpretation fails to give a satisfactory explanation as to why Bernkastel is so consistently associated with cats.

[AuraTwilight]

Um, Shroedinger's Cat, duuur? That's pretty much what Bern's trial-and-error magic means over and over again.

Also, "Neko-san nyah, nyah~!" Rika compared herself and other people to cats when she was providing hints to Keiichi and other people in order to try and change her fate in subtle means.

I'm actually kind of surprised you're taking a highly metaphorical scene to mean that Bern was literally a cat.

[Jan-Poo]

If in EP3 you thought that the Siesta were bunnies just for fan service you would have failed big time. This proves that my logic has merit.

Also the association with the schroedinger cat and Bern is something that pops up out of the blue. That's really not what Bern's power is about.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I still don't see any real evidence that the Bernkastel we see in umineko originated from a girl named Rika.

The evidences I see rather show that Bernkastel was a piece in a story created by featherinne, a story that didn't make any sense. Also there are several hints that Bern's true nature is that of a cat. Which means in the story Featherinne created she was a cat.

The Rika interpretation fails to give a satisfactory explanation as to why Bernkastel is so consistently associated with cats.

I have to agree and disagree with you on this Jan-Poo.

Yasu is a character that we never saw for most of the games. However, episode 7 showed us how we’ve always known about Yasu. Shannon was her ideal self as a servant. Kanon was the brother she created to fill the void of missing Battler. I wouldn’t describe their association to Yasu as “Yasu’s pieces”. They are different personas of the same person. Yet in each fictional tale they are presented as separate individuals.

I believe that the same association exists for Bernkastel and Featherine. Someone (a real person in the real world, who believed in witches and such) in the distant past, played a game which involved the creation of those characters. Lambdadelta was involved too. Bernkastel and Featherine consistently described themselves as observers during Beatrice’s games. One could argue that they simply represent an observer of Beatrice’s games.

[AuraTwilight]

If in EP3 you thought that the Siesta were bunnies just for fan service you would have failed big time. This proves that my logic has merit.

That's an incredibly stupid leap in logic. The Siestas and Bernkastel are not the same type of entity. The Siestas are fictional creations of Maria based on toys of hers, repurposed to be characters in a fictional fantasy drama. As opposed to Bernkastel, a witch from outside of Beatrice's imagination, whom has her own consciousness and free will.

Moreover, Bern doesn't have kitty ears, so you lose.

Also the association with the schroedinger cat and Bern is something that pops up out of the blue. That's really not what Bern's power is about.

Except it is, by her own admission. Even if we exclude the Extra TIPS wherein she directly invokes it in describing how her magic works, she continually makes references to Schroedinger's Cat in her metaphors and speeches, such as when she's explaining catboxes, Lion's existence, yadda yadda.

She was the cat in a box. Trapped in that box. Now that she's out, she tortures other "cats" (People trapped in the catbox) in order to affirm that, oh yea, she's over here, not over there, so she's out of the catbox.

[Cao Ni Ma]

This story.... is all a story showing how horrible bullying is...:negative:

Mark my words, this is the reason why everything is happening.

[AuraTwilight]

It's certainly a theme, sure.

[naever]

From /jp/

Some points made in an inteview about EP8

It was BT who wanted Lucifer to have long black hair
So far 75% of the truth has been revealed
EP8 will touch on the definition of red truth through Battler and Ange
Will was put into the story because Ryu-chan though that people wouldn't trust the truth coming from Battler's mouth, since he is still a suspect
The 07th staff know the the genders of Zepar and Furfur
Although he was called "Itomimizu" online, the 07th staff called Will "Jalapeno"
Claire is like the mystery man in all black that you see in mystery manga and anime
Young Kinzo's design was based off of Natsume's drawing
The Taiwan theory was correct
Kinzo may be glorifying his story of when he met Beatrice
Bern might have been saying "This is the truth...or at least, I'd like it to be"
Ryu-chan has no intention of talking any more about Yasu's motive in EP8. Read EP7
EP8 will have Ange as an extremely important main character
Also Amakusa shows up
It will be completely different from the approach Ryu-chan went for in Matsuribayashi-hen
There may be choices

No link for said interview, but sounds genuine. If it's true and translated right, lots of interesting (and amusing) things.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Bern might have been saying "This is the truth...or at least, I'd like it to be"

Seriously? That would be so stupid that it's funny.
I'll hold onto that "might", thank you.
But i guess i wouldn't put something like that past Bern...

So far 75% of the truth has been revealed

Even if 75% of the truth has been revealed, i have hopes that the remaining few percents in EP8 will shine some more light on the matter that i did not notice,
so i won't give myself a headache thinking too much about stuff just yet.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by naever

So far 75% of the truth has been revealed

Ok, that puts to rest the argument: "Episode 7 was the answer."
There's still some solving to do.

Originally Posted by naever

Will was put into the story because Ryu-chan though that people wouldn't trust the truth coming from Battler's mouth, since he is still a suspect

Oh. Really now...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by naever

From /jp/



No link for said interview, but sounds genuine. If it's true and translated right, lots of interesting (and amusing) things.

25% is still a sizable element, enough to pull a twist and spin the truths we know on a different light. But something about this smells like BS, I mean the actual interview that is.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd like a sauce for that interview before I take it as credible. A lot of bullshit comes out of /jp/.

[naever]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'd like a sauce for that interview before I take it as credible. A lot of bullshit comes out of /jp/.

Yes, I wouldn't trust it too much. I meant it sounded genuine to me, but i've been known for being gullible. If anyone finds a source, please post it here, i'd like too see it.

[CainSonozaki]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Ange would have had a much better life with Eva as a mother figure.

Bernkastel does all of this just because she’s bored? She enjoys torturing Ange.

She enjoys torturing Beatrice just as much. Beatrice, who stole Battler away...

Sometimes I wonder...

More like she tortures ange and forces her into an unhappy life hating the woman who raised her whom she thinks hates her too because she needs that broken depressed and curious child as her piece to Fight Beato. If Ange was happy and decided to live with Eva as her "mother" then she most likely wouldnt care or rather moved on from the accident that killed her family

Also i started thinking about ep 6 again and remembered two different bodies were referred to as "Shanon" and "Kanon" or rather the "person" Shannon is confirmed to be in the next room over. The "body" Kanon is confirmed as to having walked into the guest room hid in the closet then disappeared

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by CainSonozaki

More like she tortures ange and forces her into an unhappy life hating the woman who raised her whom she thinks hates her too because she needs that broken depressed and curious child as her piece to Fight Beato. If Ange was happy and decided to live with Eva as her "mother" then she most likely wouldnt care or rather moved on from the accident that killed her family

In case you forgot, Bern made Ange-burgers in EP7's tea party for no good reason.

Originally Posted by CainSonozaki

Also i started thinking about ep 6 again and remembered two different bodies were referred to as "Shanon" and "Kanon" or rather the "person" Shannon is confirmed to be in the next room over. The "body" Kanon is confirmed as to having walked into the guest room hid in the closet then disappeared

I used to hope for an answer that didn't involve Shkanon as well. No point in fighting against it anymore.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's an incredibly stupid leap in logic. The Siestas and Bernkastel are not the same type of entity. The Siestas are fictional creations of Maria based on toys of hers, repurposed to be characters in a fictional fantasy drama. As opposed to Bernkastel, a witch from outside of Beatrice's imagination, whom has her own consciousness and free will.

You won't win a debate by throwing an argument based on the assumption that your opponent is wrong. Bern is a fictional character, she was a piece, so the comparison work.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Moreover, Bern doesn't have kitty ears, so you lose.

She's got a kitty tail, you fail.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Except it is, by her own admission. Even if we exclude the Extra TIPS wherein she directly invokes it in describing how her magic works, she continually makes references to Schroedinger's Cat in her metaphors and speeches, such as when she's explaining catboxes, Lion's existence, yadda yadda.

She was the cat in a box. Trapped in that box. Now that she's out, she tortures other "cats" (People trapped in the catbox) in order to affirm that, oh yea, she's over here, not over there, so she's out of the catbox.

Oh come on! Talking about cat boxes doesn't make you cat! If anything is a catbox that's Beatrice's game. And who was the schroedinger cat in Ep7? Bern? Bullshit. Yasu and Lion were. And yet I haven't seen any cat tail on them.

Quote me any part that directly compares Bern to the schroedinger cat, then we can talk.

[Boxturtle]

I actually have a personal theory that Kanon and Shannon are still separate people and that only Kanon is Beatrice. It's not like it wouldn't surprise me if they were the same person, but I'll keep arguing the theory until it's pointed out blatantly that they are both identities of Yasu.