2011-05-06, 13:44 | Link #13521 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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*A lot doesn't mean all or necessarily even most. Just a sizable sample.
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2011-05-06, 17:32 | Link #13522 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Never mind that a person can simply choose to be good because it is a win-win for the group and him/her. The whole idea that someone can only be good if some smitey sky god glares at them has always disturbed me...
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2011-05-06, 19:16 | Link #13527 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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2011-05-06, 20:20 | Link #13528 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2011-05-06, 22:45 | Link #13531 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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In the article we read of Cohen that he was of:A Jewish upbringing peppered with tales about the horrors of the Nazis' treatment of Jews and other minorities was early motivation for Baron-Cohen to seek to deconstruct human cruelty The Nazis certainly had this vice (human cruelty), as they saw themselves as the superior race even though they could empathize with other races and thus use that understanding of the feelings of others to solidify their political power and instill absolute terror in those that would oppose them. In that way, the Nazis did use empathy to control others and bend them to their will. You have to empathize with someone to understand how they will react to your actions. However, we all know that empathy can also be used to express sympathy and compassion for others, and here is where I think Baron-Cohen is going wrong. When he said this:"Empathy is a skill like any other human skill -- and if you get a chance to practice, you can get better at it." Methinks that he should have said this:"Compassion is a skill like any other human skill -- and if you get a chance to practice, you can get better at it." I would agree with him then. Nevertheless, that's not what Baron-Cohen is postulating. His claim is that empathy (or a lack of) is the cause of human evils and I disagree. Empathy in and of itself can be used as a tool to inflict harm on others. As in the case of torture for example. The interrogator knows full well how the torture will feel, that's why he's inflicting it in the first place. He knows that the pain and suffering he will inflict can be used to extract the information he requires. If he lacked an understanding of the emotional feelings his prisoner/victim had, he would not have a referrence point in which to determine how much to torture and what methods are best to use. On the other hand, a person who lacks Empathy is not necessarily "evil." They may still do good works for their own selfish desires or perhaps out of necessity or mutual aid. Take for example the person who gives to a charity to get a tax break. The person might feel empathy, but then again it's more likely they just want a deduction on their tax form. A person giving change to a bum might do so just because they don't want the change in their pocket. A person stopping a crime may do so for a feeling of self-aggrandizement rather than to actual help someone out of empathy. Empathy certainly plays a role in human affairs, but to say that a lack of it is the cause of evils in the world seems ludicrous to me. I'd say the lack of compassion for others is why so called evil exits. Empathy is not synonymous with Compassion or Sympathy. Quote:
It most certainly doesn't mean you respect or care about their feelings. Perhaps Baron-Cohen simply mispoke himself. I would hope so, because to base a moral set on empathy as Baron-Cohen does here: But rather than labeling them as evil, Baron-Cohen says they should be seen as sick, or "disabled," and we should seek to understand why they have such an empathy deficiency and help them replace it. Seems more like a solution looking for a problem than an actual problem to me.
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2011-05-07, 01:22 | Link #13532 | |||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Nazis only wanted to eliminate Jews, they didn't give a damn how the Jews felt about it! Quote:
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Usually torturers approach their subjects in a more detached manner. Another interesting fact is that people can't regard more then about 100 people or so as actual people at any one time. The rest they regard as slightly more abstract entities, using stereotypes and assumptions. You don't automatically see your bus driver as a person, most of the time, he's just part of the scenery. Quote:
When people commit evil acts, it's usually out of perverted idealism, or "me, me, me" behaviour. The latter particularly applies to psychopaths, who commit murders often in a perverse attempt to gain fame. |
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2011-05-07, 02:37 | Link #13533 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Seriously though, I do agree that in some cases feelings of superiority are beneficial. However, the subject matter is Baron-Cohen's claim of what constitutes "evil" and that's the angle I was taking with superiority. That a need or desire for power is why an individual commits heinous acts and not a lack of empathy. Quote:
Hitler was one psychopathic bastard. The Nazis did wish to instill fear into the world, and they knew how to do it by using an understanding of peoples feelings against them. Alexander Kimel (an actual Holocaust survivor) gives a good example: "You may wonder why prisoners who has just gotten off the trains did not revolt, waiting as they did of hours (sometimes of days!) to enter the gas chambers... The Germans had perfected a diabolically clever and versatile system of collective death. In most cases the new arrivals did not know what awaited them. They were received with cold efficiency but without bestiality, invited to undress "for the showers". Sometimes they were handed soap and towels and were promised hot coffee after their showers. The gas chambers were, in fact, camouflaged as shower rooms, with pipes, faucets, dressing rooms, clothes hooks, benches and sort of. When, instead prisoners showed the smallest sign of knowing or suspecting their imminent fate, the S.S. and their collaborators used surprise tactics, intervening with extreme brutality, with shouts, threats, kicks, shots, losing their dogs, which were trained to tear prisoners to pieces, against people who were confused, desperate, weakened by five or ten days of traveling in sealed railroad cars." When the SS told their victims things like "we're taking you to a better place" it was to assuage their fears. The SS knew their victims were fearful, because they understood their feelings. That's empathy, or if you prefer, abuse of empathy by a vile group of political zealots. Quote:
People can have compassion without understanding a person's feelings. I think one requires sympathy, but not empathy, to be compassionate. Since sympathy requires you to care about someone else and empathy does not. Empathy only requires that you understand their plight/feelings. Sympathy and empathy are not the same thing. Quote:
I don't watch television, so I've never seen 24 (had to google it to find out what it was and what you meant). Nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer you the best I can. If we don't care for the terrorist in the TV show it's because we have no sympathy for him. If the show's written well we will understand his/her feelings in the interrogation room, and thus will be able to empathize with that character's situation. Uh...I'm sure that certain forms of "enhanced interrogation" actually works. It's how the CIA found Osama Bin Laden. Quote:
However, the torturer has to use his own knowledge of what a person will feel during the torture in order to get the desired result of his subject divulging information. Otherwise he's not much of an interrogator. That's where empathy comes into play and sympathy goes out the proverbial window. Quote:
However, at the same time we've got to prioritize the level of evils and focus on the ones that constitute the greatest threat. That's why I view the acquisition of power over another individual by force or fraud to be the greatest of secular evils. I don't need a divine entity to tell me that a totalitarian state is evil, that type of government does that all by itself. Quote:
Psychopaths being the worst. In abnormal psychology we're taught that the psychopath views others as "paper-mache," and there is an ongoing debate as to whether they simply lack sympathy for others or if they really are unable to understand other people's feelings entirely. The Psychopath also has no empathy, but they can fake it in order to fit in. This facade often flounders when they have prolonged or intimate interaction with other people since their view of the world is greatly hampered by their disorder. Normally a psychopath attempts to alter reality to fit their view of it rather than altering their view to fit reality. The problem with many sociopaths (among which psychopaths are a sub-group) is that they do understand the feelings of the people they hurt, and they get off on it, Sadists being among the worst offenders in this case. Here's a link to a site that describes various types of sexual offenders (violent ones anyway). Most do empathize with their victims and thus feel a charge of power from what they're doing to them. Using the rape example again. One of the best ways to know whether a rapist has empathy (understanding) for his/her victim is to ask that person if they'd like to be raped. More often than not they'll say no, which indicates they understand what their victim is feeling, they just don't care (have sympathy or compassion).
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2011-05-07, 02:48 | Link #13534 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Like I said, in a system of equilibrium, an extreme force applied will result in an extreme counterforce enacted by the system to push it back into the equilibrium level. Same as humans : if the authority figures tell them to shoot civvies from an opposition, there will be three possible outcomes - 1. The shooters express immense regret. 2. The opposition gets people to shoot back at the civvies from the shooters' side. 3. The shooters commit suicide. There may be other outcomes, but they will all counteract to the change in one way or another. It is action-reaction that result in cause-effect cycles. Sometimes things get uglier, while sometimes it just dies down when one party is wiped off the face of the Earth or simply lets it go via surrender or enough-is-enough.
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2011-05-07, 05:43 | Link #13535 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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After five months of deadly fighting, Ivory Coast president finally takes office
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2012939/ After so much time, and so much death...
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2011-05-07, 06:06 | Link #13536 | |
Takao Tsundere Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Classified
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2011-05-07, 07:47 | Link #13537 | ||||||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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2011-05-07, 15:13 | Link #13538 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Singapore's ruling party returned to government
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But it would be a mistake to think that it'll be business as usual. A groundswell of resentment against the ruling party's style of government has indeed surfaced over the last nine days. It is a harbinger of things to come over the next 10 or so years, as a younger electorate with no emotional ties to the PAP increasingly assert their desire for greater freedoms and participation in civil society. Singapore is coming of age and, personally, it has been moving to see so many Singaporeans, young and old, feel proud to be a citizen again. The simple power to vote: so seemingly small, yet so great an impact it creates. Majulah Singapura. Onward Singapore! |
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2011-05-07, 15:24 | Link #13539 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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So, when will the opposition (particularly NSP and their pandering slogans) will start calls for a vote recount? *sarcastic* P.S I suppose you are still working at this hour to prepare news for Sunday?
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2011-05-07, 18:57 | Link #13540 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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When it's 81/87 there's not even a point in having a parliament...
However that kind of proportion isn't implausible considering Singapore is a single city, many other cities see that level of support for a single party. |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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