US Elections 2016 Part II: The Debates & General Election

[Key Board]

Preibus just tweeted this image

http://i.imgur.com/II9omnU.jpg

So much for blind trust

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

1) Yeah sure, he is guy who lived in Germany for the last 30 years. I get it.

This may be shocking to you but these days Germans aren't all white, have blue eyes and blond hair anymore.

[Brother Coa]

Yeah, they are dying out as a nation. Same is happening to French, Italians, Scandinavian nations, Spanish and British.

Only place where are you going to find real Germans today is in smaller towns and villages, and even that places will die out-soon because of urbanization of the big cities and everyone moving up to live there.

And this is the result of many factors: huge losses in 2 world wars ( which killed a lot of young able bodied men ), focusing on career and good lifestyle over wife and kids and mass immigration from other parts of the world ( most notably Africa and Asia ).

In some 100 to 150 years it will be multicultural mixed European nation in EU ( if it does not come crashing down in next 10 years ) on the one side and Slavic countries on the other side ( where native people still have 80-90% of ethnically pure population even today ).

Will this be a good or bad thing only time will show us. I am glad that at least many others who have been living in poverty so far have a cahnce to become citizens of prosperous superstate one day ( if EU decided to form USE ).

[Sheba]

European nations are too attached to their cultural differences to let a superstate happen.

And holy shit those two first lines dripping with racism. No, Mister, the idea of a nation is not tied solely to ethnicity, and I am speaking as a guy who despise political correctness but when I see a duck, may as well calling it a duck. I am deeply sorry for not wearing a handlebar mustache and a beret, while I drive my fellow ethnic French friends to extinction.

[Reckoner]

And people wonder why I accuse so many Trumpsters of echoing white nationalist sentiments .

I hate PC stuff as much as the next guy, but c'mon guys.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

And people wonder why I accuse so many Trumpsters of echoing white nationalist sentiments .

I hate PC stuff as much as the next guy, but c'mon guys.

What is the problem with respecting myself, my culture and history? Whether you like it or not, whether it was bad or not.

[Sheba]

There is a difference between loving the country you are part of and closing yourself into a tunnel vision built up by racial views.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

What is the problem with respecting myself, my culture and history? Whether you like it or not, whether it was bad or not.

There is a fine, but important, line between patriotism and nationalism. To quote George Orwell:

By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

What is the problem with respecting myself, my culture and history? Whether you like it or not, whether it was bad or not.

You can respect yourself all you want in private. But don't even pretend that what you are really saying is that you want to disrespect other people. People who genuinely are proud of their own cultures don't feel the need to tell everyone else about how much better they are.

Frankly it is pretty obvious you are entirely insecure about your own identity and is overcompensating.

[MCAL]

Meanwhile, in North Carolina...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/us...imes&smtyp=cur

[The Green One]

^*pictures two toddlers fighting over a toy. Mom tells Toddler 1 to give the toy to Toddler 2 and Toddler 1 in response smashes the toy into the ground and breaks it*

If I can't have it, NO ONE CAN!!!

[Brother Coa]

Wow, where did you guys concluded that I am a racist. Here, let me get a definition of a racist: 'a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.' Mine statement from above does not talk about any kind of hate or superiority, it talks about evolution of European nations - something that is very real and happening in the past 30+ years. I guess modern liberals see racism in everything that does not fit their own view of perfect world...

On to topic at hand: "Donald Trump’s Denial About Russia."

Extrapolating motive from evidence is always tricky. But after the C.I.A. provided classified briefings for Congress and the White House, members of both political parties were convinced.

But not President-elect Trump.

Mr. Trump’s instant rejection of the C.I.A. findings as “ridiculous,” based on no review of its work, echoed Moscow’s. “This tale of ‘hacks’ resembles a banal brawl between American security officials over spheres of influence,” Maria Zakharova, the spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, wrote on Facebook. Mr. Trump said of American security officials, “They’re fighting among themselves.”

I already explained in previous posts how silly the whole idea that Russia can hack something as sophisticated and protected as this is. But let us say this is true and CIA actually post evidence instead of their own opinion - how unstable would US become? You already have divided nation as election have shown us, addicting more oil will not extinguish fire.

But seriously now... how hurt you must be that your favorite candidate lost the elections to try and blame another country for it's fall? And by doing so tell the entire world how vulnerable US really is.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Wow, where did you guys concluded that I am a racist.

Perhaps the part where you said that anyone that isn't white isn't a 'real' German?

Mine statement from above does not talk about any kind of hate or superiority

So the part where you said that only a minority of people in Germany are real Germans wasn't a statement of their ethnic superiority?

But let us say this is true and CIA actually post evidence instead of their own opinion - how unstable would US become? You already have divided nation as election have shown us, addicting more oil will not extinguish fire.

So ignoring the fire is a better option then?

But seriously now... how hurt you must be that your favorite candidate lost the elections to try and blame another country for it's fall? And by doing so tell the entire world how vulnerable US really is.

Just to make it clear...

So you're saying that even if the Russians are responsible, the US should just... ignore it?

[Grifis]

Nobody knows the content of the findings and if there are "findings" I'm pretty sure the CIA cooked it up themselves. This is the narrative they've prepared from the beginning. As for the public, they don't need to know. The public just need to be told that it was evil Russia/Putin all along. The case of innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here. It was like that since M-17 (or rather since I started to pay attention.)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Endscape

So the part where you said that only a minority of people in Germany are real Germans wasn't a statement of their ethnic superiority?

Well, technically speaking whether someone is a real [insert nationality] here isn't a indicator of superiority of the races. Racism doesn't have to necessarily deal with superiority. If I used "positive" stereotypes about people, like say, I said "He's Asian, and they're good at math so he doesn't need a calculator", that would still be racist, wouldn't it? it's a matter of thought process. Sure, some racists can get legitimate information about various math test scores and use that as proof, but that's merely a red herring because that's not part of their thought process. It's just the excuse-- working backwards to find data that justifies the forgone conclusion. Heck, in fact, I would say stereotypes are also based on reality, since they had to come from somewhere on a certain scale, but it's pretty fault to use anecdotes as facts.

Likewise, I could say [x] group isn't accepted here. It's not because they're worse than us, we just like to keep to our own kind. That wouldn't necessarily be a matter of superiority, but it'd still be prejudicial because you're already acting like you can define them better than they can.


One could say it's a matter of culture.

However, I think it's implying something far worse. I'm just going to say that deciding cultural compatibility and ability to assimilate into a real [nationality] isn't as easy as going to CulturalPartsPicker.com, aka "your motherboard is incompatible with Muslims"

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, technically speaking whether someone is a real [insert nationality] here isn't a indicator of superiority.

However, I think it's implying something far worse.

It's not just you thinking, I think anybody who can see beyond ethnicity can understand the unfortunate implications of it. Let's take USA for example, how would a Japanese American or a Mexican American or Italian American, perfectly integrated into the society that his peers wont even question that he is American, would feel if some guy just tell him that he will never be a real American because his ancestors were not in the Mayflower? Should I feel not French just because my parents and grandparents were not Gauls, when I grew up more French than Khmer because the French values, taught by my education at school, resonated with me? Seriously?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's not just you thinking, I think anybody who can see beyond ethnicity can understand the unfortunate implications of it. Let's take USA for example, how would a Japanese American or a Mexican American or Italian American, perfectly integrated into the society that his peers wont even question that he is American, would feel if some guy just tell him that he will never be a real American because his ancestors were not in the Mayflower? Should I feel not French just because my parents and grandparents were not Gauls, when I grew up more French than Khmer because the French values, taught by my education at school, resonated with me? Seriously?

I mean to be fair, there's a certain logic to it that I actually agree a bit with, but as usual it's been co-opted by the far right.

I do agree with the "When in Rome..." concept. No, it has nothing to do with tossing away your current culture, but I think it's only proper to be able to adapt to the customs and culture of your country. Now, that doesn't mean you have to become fat, spend a ton of money on useless things, and eat tons of hamburgers to be American, but there needs to at least be a respect for the culture and rules of the place. So I think people should be able to speak a little of the language of the locality, for example. Society runs a bit better if everyone can communicate and in cases where you need help, it could be critical.

Weirdly enough, that does feel like a collectivist mindset when individualism is such a thing especially for many conservatives in the US.

So I suppose it's possible that one can feel their culture or what defines their nation is being eroded away by newcomers who have no intention of participating in it. But erode and change are very different things and people with rose colored glasses have a skewed mind. "Remember the good ol' days when people died of smallpox, and black people had to sit in the back of the bus?" Sadly, some people would take that unironically.

Of course, none of this justifies one person being able to determine who is a real whatever, especially just by looking at them. Nor does it subscribe to "we must only accept their best and brightest rhetoric" because the slippery slope (more like cliff) is a very sharp fall. And when people determine an entire group of people are incapable through dubious methods...

Anyhow, Reckoner had the right words. Note he didn't say racism either.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Endscape

So you're saying that even if the Russians are responsible, the US should just... ignore it?

Then I guess you are alright for all out war with Russia? And new civil war in the US as I doubt that good portion of population will take taking down democratically elected president like that peacefully.

Thankfully, this is just CIA playing up with public. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Let's take USA for example

This is one really bad example in this case, as USA is a MIX if multiple nationalities that over time developed their own culture and nation ( and even with that you can pretty much see dominance of English culture in US above all other nations ). Beside US has different mentality, in Europe nationality is the biggest question for individual while in US it's race. Pretty much everyone can become an american as they are artificially created nation from a mix of different nations.

Here is a much better example - Japan. Imagine a European starting to live there and trying to blend with community. Sure, people will treat him nicely and he will get papers eventually but he can never look like them and because of that hew will always stand out even if fully accepted into community.

I can take even my country as an example as well, where 83% of population are ethical locals. In summer I can walk trough the main city street and see foreigner from mile across because their facial and body visuals of not fit standard citizen of my country.

Differences exists, and that's natural thing and ok. And I consider that an awesome thing because if this world was the same everywhere it would be pretty boring. So seeing all kind of different people everywhere can really make a colorful and interesting community. If saying that people are different or that they are never going to look like natives a racism? No it is not, it is just stating the fact. Racism would be directly attacking them or outright hating them for that, which I consider simpleminded.

But I guess in these modern times just asking someone is he from another country is considered racism. Even in most cases people use this word without understanding it's meaning ( like here, German is not a race - it is an nationality. German people are part of Caucasian race same like Slavs, French, English, Scandinavian and others... ).

[Draco Spirit]

On a the note of racial identity, I always feel nationality is more about culture and values than bloodline myself. British genetics is a complicated mishmash of sources at best anyway, and most people are way more complicated than they probably realise anyhow.

But Democracy, Free Speech and the Queen are all dam important.

[Harbinger]

CIA lying. Nothing to see here.