Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Kleeyook]

^^ I don't know what to say about the opinions of people about this GA vs Hideous anymore. ^^

I don't think it's fair for us to say that the GA are Nazi-space assholes when the hideous believe themselves to be superior to humans. Also, while the CA attacked the Evolvers first. It was the Evolvers who siezed the wormhole dive to chase after the CA who decided to flee from them so that they wouldn't deal with the hideous' bullshit in the first place.

What was the point of converting them into something THAT different in order to live in the space without the spacecraft when they need the wormhole dive to spread themselves even faster!? The hideous just got greedy and had expansionist attitude to conquer the galaxy for themselves.

But then, as the viewers, the 3rd person viewpoint. It will always be neutral, although I doubt your opinion is really objective seeing you root so much for the hideous. This conflict isn't something we can compare to Gundam SEED's Blue Cosmos vs Coordinators, you know! It's on a different magnitude!

BTW, Hideauze probably comes from hideous. That's what normal humans looks at their appearance anymore. I don't know about their social structure, culture and moral concept tough.

I don't think I can compare this to normal people living with cannibals, but when their opinion about their way of life crash in the most radical way, I don't think peaceful coexistence is possible.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Well, I don't really think it's a matter of choice at this point in the conflict. If anything, the war between humanity and the Hideauze is nothing more than a continuation of the war between the Continental Union and the Evolvers.

A interesting note by Chamber confirms that the Hideauze aren't sentient anymore, at least not on an individual level or at a level that can be easily associated with by normal humans. This goes in hand with the argument against synthetics from various sci-fi series; since they can just evolve countermeasures, the Hideauze have no reason to think at all, no limitations that require intelligence to overcome. Chamber's conclusion is logical, it isn't a matter of who started what now, humanity (as represented by the Galactic Alliance) and the Hideauze are basically two conclusions that contradict each other, and will inevitably lead to some form of conflict (whether or not that conflict can ever be peaceful is unknown).

Reminds me of the argument from this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI), only replace "tech" with "evolutionary" countermeasures. The Hideauze may be biological beings, but they possess all the attributes of a pure synthetic race; thus it may be inevitable that they will come into conflict with their more "organic" counterparts.

At this point in time, I think they just fight each other because that's what both sides have "evolved" towards, what they've been doing for thousands of years, in the case of the Galactic Alliance, their society and outlook; in the case of the Hideauze, their combat oriented biology and aggression; both sides don't need a reason anymore, it's what they do.

I agree with the way you present Chamber's argument, but I wonder if they will wrap it up that smoothly. It seems like the theme has been to embrace the culture of Gargantia all along, so I would expect them to try and find a way to avoid fighting the whalesquids.

The whalesquids are not as aggressive as the space hideauze, so this might be possible .. but I'm not sure how you come to a cease fire with powerful beings that don't have sentience. If you are far more powerful than them, you could put them in a zoo ... but with only 2 machine calibers, I am not sure that's an option for the earth humans.

I suppose if they just avoid the whalesquid territories they might be able to avoid conflicts for awhile, but it seems inevitable that other whalesquid pods will discover that the Evolver Base pod has been destroyed & retaliate.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Kleeyook

^^ I don't know what to say about the opinions of people about this GA vs Hideous anymore. ^^

I don't think it's fair for us to say that the GA are Nazi-space assholes when the hideous believe themselves to be superior to humans. Also, while the CA attacked the Evolvers first. It was the Evolvers who siezed the wormhole dive to chase after the CA who decided to flee from them so that they wouldn't deal with the hideous' bullshit in the first place.

We don't know if the Hideauze and the whalesquid are even capable of "believing" in anything anymore, after thousands of years of potential regression intelligence-wise. In the previous episode thread, people were noting a lack of civilization in regards to the whale-squid's nest; there is some evidence that the whalesquids have lost sentience, at least at the level a human would have.

Originally Posted by apotheosis

I agree with the way you present Chamber's argument, but I wonder if they will wrap it up that smoothly. It seems like the theme has been to embrace the culture of Gargantia all along, so I would expect them to try and find a way to avoid fighting the whalesquids.

The whalesquids are not as aggressive as the space hideauze, so this might be possible .. but I'm not sure how you come to a cease fire with powerful beings that don't have sentience. If you are far more powerful than them, you could put them in a zoo ... but with only 2 machine calibers, I am not sure that's an option for the earth humans.

I suppose if they just avoid the whalesquid territories they might be able to avoid conflicts for awhile, but it seems inevitable that other whalesquid pods will discover that the Evolver Base pod has been destroyed & retaliate.

Another thing to be worried about, remembering that the Evolvers and Hideauze use evolution as a response to threats, is if the Earth whalesquids respond by re-evolving the weaponry their ancestors had. If you keep wiping out the peaceful whalesquids, those that survive may become more aggressive and correspondingly more dangerous.

[DuelGundam2099]

Well this episode was just Pinion getting weapons, Ledo and the Gargantians being mopey, and Chamber being philosophical with a cliffhanger. I was.... Kind of expecting more from this. Not like it matters, only three eps left to go anyway.

[Awrya]

Another mind-blowing episode.
With the way Ledo was acting, losing his reason to exterminate the Hideauze, I thought Chamber would deem Ledo to be mentally incapable of fighting Hideauze and relieve him of his military rank.

So at least Kugel's Machine Caliber is on earth and someone has created a cult?
He must have arrived to earth much earlier than Ledo, creating a cult of such magnitude must have taken more than a few months Ledo has spent on Gargantia.
Maybe Gargantia has heard of this cult before, who hunt and hang the corpses of whale squids on their ships, leading Bebel and Amy to pity whale squids?

[Irenesharda]

I first I thought this episode was going to be bad. Pinion has gone nuts and let the power go to his head. Red is having a case of PTSD or something (it's probably some other psychological thing, but I'm too lazy to look into it.) and he is feeling extreme guilt over killing the Hideauze. I like the weapons they discovered, they aren't too over the top like Chamber's but they are loads better than what they have now. I hope Pinion gets over himself and they are able to share what they have found with the rest of humanity including Gargantia.

Anyway, I thought this episode was going to suck and they were going to spout the same anti-war, pacifist cliches you get in a thousand other anime, however--I must say, this episode was single-handedly saved by Chamber.

Chamber is without a doubt, the best and smartest character in this entire show. The machine is smart enough to put together what his pilot could not: that the Hideauze are no longer human and haven't been for sometime. They gave up their humanity, willingly, and now that willingness has caused a war that has been waged for centuries. And it's no longer a war of ideals, but a war of survival...for existence. Though you now know the war's beginnings, it doesn't change the reality that you're in now. It just makes you more informed about the enemy.

However, the twist that I saw was coming eventually, of Cmdr. Kugel being on Earth as well has arrived. But is he awake or in some sort of induced coma like Red was? Striker (Kugel's mech) doesn't seem to be active, since it's body and eyes weren't glowing. And who are these strange cult guys in robes? They have ships covered in impaled Hideuze and have weird red eyes painted on their foreheads. They look so spaced out. I want to know what's going to happen next! Why oh why did they decide to keep all the good stuff until the end and spent so much wasted time on nonsense?

Anyway, I give this episode an 8/10. Chamber had the best speech of the series and that by itself is laudable.

[ThereminVox]

A very draggy first half, but the second made up for it nicely.

I'm simultaneously disturbed and excited by the implication that Kugel may have experienced a story that greatly parallels Ledo's, only Kugel's methods of making first contact appear to be very different. Also, the Gargantian fleet itself has a lot to do with making Ledo a changed individual.

[Irenesharda]

I honestly think this show might go a different direction than just having Red and Kugel fight each other. Neither of them have been antagonistic towards each other in the past, and from what we've seen Kugel is a pretty nice guy and is very similar to Red in that he will go against protical to save others. The guy was willing to die to protect the fleet and the rest of humanity, I don't think that's the makings of a bad guy, at least without seeing any other backstory leading up to it.

How do we know he even set up the cult or anything? How do we even know if the guy is conscious? Red was in an induced coma for 6 months before Chamber woke him up, and at that point he was already in Gargantia's hands. What if the same thing happened to Kugel and this cult somehow made Striker into an idol or something?

I'm just saying that assuming that suddenly Kugel and Red will be enemies is jumping to conclusions. Especially for a soldier trained to obey his CO. And I don't care how much more in touch with his humanity Red has become, he still carries the mind and instincts of a soldier.

[ookamigirl]

Ledo was on a serious guilt trip.
Everyone was pretty much disappointed by his actions.
Seems like no one gained anything, except Pinion.
Everything Ledo believed in was shattered.
Looks like he won't be alone for much longer..

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

How do we know he even set up the cult or anything? How do we even know if the guy is conscious?

It's possible (though I doubt it) that he isn't even alive in there. If that were the case, would his machine caliber be capable of independent action in the event that it encountered the whalesquid?

[joshuafaramir]

Finally.. some equal footing from the opposing camp. Now lets watch some serious gundam fight between the two (hopefully). Stray bullets kill bystanders. Loli dies, Pinion dies! HAVOC AND CHAOS ENSUES.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

What actually surprised me was that Chamber admited that the information in that "ancient" lab was actually true. Last Episode it looked like he would forever try to deny it and claim that the video was a fake, but when he said "I got to this conclusion not because I belong to the Alliance, but because of the information I analysed", I got quite relieved, that MAYBE he will not be the final antagonist after all.

Before this episode I was wondering which Chamber his reason and his program should they conflict.
Chamber has always displayed an innate tendency to put everything into reasonable data. He kept asking the logic behind everything, and he kept giving his judgement on the rationality of Ledo's and other's argument.

I was glad to see that Chamber's logic won. When he got facts he couldn't deny anymore that the alliance's information were wrong. And it's very interesting how he came to his own conclusions about the nature of Hideauze humans and their conflict.

I'm looking forward to see how he will further adjust to the upcoming events.


Certainly what Chamber said was very interesting it had some valid points. Somehow it was even a selfish reasoning which is interesting.
The Hideauze do not need machines, so if that "humanity" will win, machines will become obsolete including Chamber himself. Moreover soldiers like Ledo won't be needed anymore, though Chamber forgot that Ledo technically has he option to join the Hideauze (of course he'll never do that but the option exists).

I still don't think that it's possible to conclude that the Hideauze have abandoned intelligence completely. The whalesquids certainly did and it seems that nautilus Hideauze have regressed to a mindless state too, however since it seems that there are many different "species" of them we can't exclude that some kind of intelligence form still exist, like the cerebrates for the zerg.

Still it is almost undeniable at this point that the Hideauze as a whole have abandoned civilization and culture and are only bent on survival and expansion. And unlike the GA they have it in their genes. The GA can stop being a Nazi society anytime. The Hideauze have forgone the human versatility for an ultimate form of life and society.


That being said, if there is still some intelligence left somewhere in the Hideauze society a peaceful solution could be achieved, that... supposing that the Hideauze can abandon their greedy expansionistic aims.

If they take whatever they want and attack humans without a second though or warning when they get close like the whalesquid do, then Chamber is right. Humanity cannot compete against them in term of expansion. They are bound to hoard every single resource in the galaxy and humanity will have no future.


Now about those cultists. One thing is certain, they aren't in friendly terms with the whalesquids and it seems they've been killing them for a while. It wouldn't be surprising if Kugel adopted the strategy that Chamber proposed and Ledo refused in episode 2.
I think that Kugel became the commander of the fleet and made them participate in his crusade against the Hideauze.

But it wouldn't make sense for them to never have attacked the very place where the Hideauze were created for all this time, so they probably never knew its location. They must have been attracted by Pinion's message and it seems that they are happy that someone else destroyed the whalesquid's nest.

Now though it's yet to be seen if they will ask for a friendly alliance or if they'll want to take over. Probably the latter.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

How do we know he even set up the cult or anything?

Because... why else whould this cult hate the whalesquids so much? Of course it's not impossible that someone of the earthlings developed such hatred independently, but since they also have striker with them, it is more likely that Kugel told them of his fight against the Hideauze.

[ginger02]

Episode needed more Amy. She hasn't said much in 2 episodes. I loved the scene of Bellows and her hair blowing in the wind on the ship.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

It's possible (though I doubt it) that he isn't even alive in there. If that were the case, would his machine caliber be capable of independent action in the event that it encountered the whalesquid?

Well, I think that he's alive, but I don't know if he's conscious or not. Remember in the very beginning, Chamber had suggested that Red go back into induced coma in order to conserve on nutrients and water until he could get a link with the Alliance? Kugel might have actually done so, and in that case Striker would have acted independently to protect him. As Chamber has said, the machine calibers' main job is to protect and aid their pilots.

However, those whalesquid also look ancient and almost petrified, is it possible that Kugel/Striker didn't kill them but the cult did? Or that they just found dead ones and simply set them up on their ship?

I'm just saying that this show is beginning to think out of the box, and I think the idea that Kugel and Red will simply fight because of sudden differing ideals is a little cliche. And it would really come out of nowhere since the last we saw Kugel was in episode 1, he was in the process of sacrificing his life to protect his men and Avalon.

However, this does present the question: if Kugel, who was fighting the Hideauze, fell to Earth, could some of the space Hideauze have followed him as well? And as they are about 150x more powerful than the sea Hideauze, that could be a problem.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Kugel might have actually done so, and in that case Striker would have acted independently to protect him. As Chamber has said, the machine calibers' main job is to protect and aid their pilots.

I think Striker would have woken up Kugel as soon as he found Hideauze, Machine Calibers aren't meant to fight them alone and those ships have "dried squids" everywhere.
Chamber received a message using the standard encryption of the alliance so at the very least Striker is still active.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Because... why else would this cult hate the whalesquids so much? Of course it's not impossible that someone of the earthlings developed such hatred independently, but since they also have striker with them, it is more likely that Kugel told them of his fight against the Hideauze.

Who knows? Who knows why most cults do what they do? Majority of the time, the reason might not be logical. And even if it is, they might hate them like Pinion does if they are from a place that was attacked by the Hideauze.

Also, they might not even hate them. They might decorate their ships that way because they worship them. I mean, they have already alluded to others in this world being superstitious and revering the whalesquid, maybe these guys are an extreme form? Maybe they are some sort of NeoEvolver group?

[Shinhwa]

Let the massive fight between Chamber and Striker begin with deaths occurring =w=

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Who knows? Who knows why most cults do what they do? Majority of the time, the reason might not be logical. And even if it is, they might hate them like Pinion does if they are from a place that was attacked by the Hideauze. Also, they might not even hate them. They might decorate their ships that way because they worship them. I mean, they have already alluded to others in this world being superstitious and revering the whalesquid, maybe these guys are an extreme form? Maybe they are some sort of NeoEvolver group?

You worship creatures by killing them and decorating your homes with their carcasses? That's a new.

Anyway as I said it's not like it's impossible that somehow those who happened to find striker also happen coincidentally to want to kill Hideauze as much as Kugel wants, but that's of several magnitudes more unlikely than the case where they are killing whalesquids because of Kugel.


In addition you'd need to explain how do they kill whalesquids, because as far as it was told to us it is very hard to deal with them with the technologies available to earthlings.

[Kanon]

As expected, most of the episode dealt with Ledo angsting over his extermination of what he now knows are former humans. I don't think it was overdone. He found out absolutely everything he believed in was a lie, and that he just killed helpless "human" babies. That's bound to shake anybody up. It's more than enough for him to question the meaning of his existence. It will take a bit more time before he decides what he should do from now.

I was a bit surprised Chamber eventually came to the conclusion the information they discovered last week were real. His reasoning was interesting. He is both right and wrong. Achieving peace with the Hideauze is probably impossible, but the situation is different on Earth. They haven't reached the extreme state of existence he spoke of. They're content living peacefully in their territory. They're no different from most animals now, assuming they did lose their intellect. There is no reason to exterminate them all. Co-existence is possible. It's not necessary for Ledo to fight them.

Kugel being alive and well on Earth was a nice twist. I'm guessing he will represent what Ledo might have become had Amy (and to some extent Bebel) not been there for him. There will be a sharp contrast between the current Ledo and him. It may be a cliché development but I think it's pretty obvious they eventually will fight each other at the end of the series. Right now I can't imagine how Ledo could convince Chamber to fight Kugel though, unless Kugel has somehow strayed from the path of a soldier (that cult is very ominous...).

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think Striker would have woken up Kugel as soon as he found Hideauze, Machine Calibers aren't meant to fight them alone and those ships have "dried squids" everywhere.
Chamber received a message using the standard encryption of the alliance so at the very least Striker is still active.

Remember in the beginning that Chamber continued to send his SOS even while he was for the majority part shut down during those 6 months. And he didn't fully turn on until Gargantia dug him up. Striker might be doing the same. It would explain why they haven't heard Striker's call till now. The signal was very low key and the cult could have been on the other side of the planet for all we know. It was only as the cult approached that Chamber picked it up.