[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I think the red truth is objective in the sense that it can tell the truth of individual games impartially. But only in that context. Stuff like titles and troll reds really aren't.

The only point I'd nitpick about this interpretation of the Red Truth is that it means you can pick out truths that may seem impartial and are not 'obvious trolling'. The problem is basically it creates a situation where you can't be sure if the person using the red was trolling when they said it. I'll reiterate that I choose to interpret that a character, be it Beatrice, Lamdba, Erika, Battler, Natsuhi, etc. can only say a red truth when they absolutely believe it to be true.

BTW, witchfan I did some diving into the thread to re-read your interpretation of the whole Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice situation. It was a very refreshing theory. I'll personally say that there being a real!Kanon and a fictional!Kanon or that Shannon and Kanon are two separate people is not disproven by any of the EPs. I don't personally agree to it but I don't believe what you described is impossible either.

AuraTwilight, I'm glad that we both agree that the red truth can be subjective.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

The only point I'd nitpick about this interpretation of the Red Truth is that it means you can pick out truths that may seem impartial and are not 'obvious trolling'. The problem is basically it creates a situation where you can't be sure if the person using the red was trolling when they said it. I'll reiterate that I choose to interpret that a character, be it Beatrice, Lamdba, Erika, Battler, Natsuhi, etc. can only say a red truth when they absolutely believe it to be true.

I was referring more to things like "I am the golden witch Beatrice", "I am the 18th person on Rokkenjima", and laughing and mocking people with the red. Or statements said that don't add any truth at all. Trolling probably wasn't the best word to describe it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Idle thought: maybe Yasu pitched her first two mystery drafts into the ocean because she realized that they were too over-the-top to inflict on the real Battler? She wanted to make him remember her, not traumatize him, and ideally he should have realized it was a game right away, so making a horrific bloody mess everywhere would be counterproductive even if it was fun to write. That would make her story development process roughly parallel Meta-Beatrice's character development starting in EP3.

The only problem is why you'd put them in something that might be recovered. I mean, if you think your work is too much for the purpose you'd set forth, you could just burn the manuscript. The whole message bottle thing only makes sense if the message bottles were intended, or at least hoped, to survive. Or someone wants us to think that was the idea, anyway.

But seriously, you don't put a message in a bottle hoping it won't be found.

[MeoTwister5]

Okay just wanted to apologize for not putting up the summaries for the ???. I wanted to post the entire thing in one go rather than in parts and I haven't finished it yet due to exams. I should be done with the entire ??? by tomorrow.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

The only problem is why you'd put them in something that might be recovered. I mean, if you think your work is too much for the purpose you'd set forth, you could just burn the manuscript. The whole message bottle thing only makes sense if the message bottles were intended, or at least hoped, to survive. Or someone wants us to think that was the idea, anyway.

But seriously, you don't put a message in a bottle hoping it won't be found.

Well, there's a difference between the work being unsuitable and being bad. These were drafts that she was actually proud of, even if she couldn't use them.

I imagine her thought process was something like: "This is pretty awesome, but maybe it's too much to do this one live? Still, it'd be kind of a waste to just throw it away... I know! Why don't I put it in a message bottle like in that book? Then maybe somebody will find it and it'll be all mysterious!"

[AuraTwilight]

That does sound like Yasu. It'd also be appropriately, hilariously tragic that some innocent drabblings created this whole catbox bullshit that tortured Ange forever.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

I'll reiterate that I choose to interpret that a character, be it Beatrice, Lamdba, Erika, Battler, Natsuhi, etc. can only say a red truth when they absolutely believe it to be true.

But wouldn't that be the golden truth? The believing heart becomes power and can even beat the impartial truth.
People can start to utter a red that they believe to be true, but they won't be able to finish it...which is mean if it is hidden properly. For example Beatrice could only start to say her red about Sakutaro...hadn't she been cut off by Ange (or was it Maria?!) she would have stopped. She just wasn't at the crucial part that wasn't true (that Sakutarô was a one of a kind piece by the time of 1986...which was more or less proven by one of the items you get during the game in EP8).

Red has been constructed as being absolutely true, at least in the context of each individual game (unless proven to span several games). In the end it would have to be proven if there even are any red sentences that clearly contradict each other when putting all games side by side. I might try that in the future if nobody did that before...

Originally Posted by Judoh

I was referring more to things like "I am the golden witch Beatrice", "I am the 18th person on Rokkenjima", and laughing and mocking people with the red. Or statements said that don't add any truth at all.

Even those sentences do add truth, don't they?!
The person who sent out the message bottles and started the games does believe to be a person called 'Beatrice the Golden Witch'.
Furudo Erika is the 18th person/character in the mystery around the tragedy of Rokkenjima, just that she never played an integral part in the real events. We can assume that she actually never reached Rokkenjima alive...yet she would have been the 18th person.

That's the trick of the red, isn't it?! Being able to create red herrings without actually telling a lie. Of course that makes it sneaky and at certain points even unfair if it isn't properly hinted at being a lie...

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

Here's an example that you used for subjective truth: I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

I really wouldn't call that truth subjective, as I explained above. That person, Yasu, is accepted by several people throughout the series as 'The Golden Witch, Beatrice'. She assumed the role by herself and was even aided further by Kinzo and the servants.
'The Golden Witch, Beatrice', as we learned by the time of EP3, is not a person but a title that is passed on from generation to generation. This is shown metaphorically through Vargilia who looses the name after the young girl in Kuwadorian succeeds her.
Even Beatrice Castiglioni wasn't 'The Golden Witch, Beatrice'. That was a concept that was created by Kinzo and he passed it on from girl to girl.

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by Renall

The whole message bottle thing only makes sense if the message bottles were intended, or at least hoped, to survive. Or someone wants us to think that was the idea, anyway.

But seriously, you don't put a message in a bottle hoping it won't be found.

It's been established in the story that Yasu/Beatrice would do something like that. Like the prank that she had set up with Maria where one of the adults needed to pick up a certain cup. But they didn't and Yasu/Beatrice was okay with that. It's in her character to set up something that has a low probability of ever happening. In fact, she might relish the fact that it would take a 'miracle' for her message bottles to be discovered.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Trolling probably wasn't the best word to describe it.

I understand what you meant, I still disagree. The red truth is the truth, just not the completely objective truth. Without getting into too much philosophy the truth is always colored by a person's bias. The red truth can be the objective truth, but there is still guidelines for what it can tell.

Basically, we are saying the same thing, the truth can be subjective and also objective. I'm just trying to provide an explanation on how something we couldn't consider to be true can be said in red. And that's personal bias. That's what makes it different from the blatant falsehoods that Beatrice, or any other Game Master, can narrate when the story goes into a third-person perspective.

Here's an example that you used for subjective truth: I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. This is not completely incorrect, it's just a half-truth. She does call herself the Golden Witch and at least Maria recognizes her as the Golden Witch. But she is not the same Beatrice that Kinzo met, nor did she provide him with gold. Even thought Kinzo did recognize her as such, symbolically, before he died.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

It's been established in the story that Yasu/Beatrice would do something like that. Like the prank that she had set up with Maria where one of the adults needed to pick up a certain cup. But they didn't and Yasu/Beatrice was okay with that. It's in her character to set up something that has a low probability of ever happening. In fact, she might relish the fact that it would take a 'miracle' for her message bottles to be discovered.

Is she that malicious, though? She'll scare somebody for a prank, but if she's worried she went a little too far and had something pretty scary, knowing (if indeed she knows!) that some disaster might be coming, is it worth releasing something that might get misinterpreted horribly?

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But wouldn't that be the golden truth? The believing heart becomes power and can even beat the impartial truth.
People can start to utter a red that they believe to be true, but they won't be able to finish it...which is mean if it is hidden properly. For example Beatrice could only start to say her red about Sakutaro...hadn't she been cut off by Ange (or was it Maria?!) she would have stopped. She just wasn't at the crucial part that wasn't true (that Sakutarô was a one of a kind piece by the time of 1986...which was more or less proven by one of the items you get during the game in EP8).

Red has been constructed as being absolutely true, at least in the context of each individual game (unless proven to span several games).

My interpretation of the difference between golden and red truths is that only people that know the heart of the games can say it and it can only say the complete truth. Unless later someone else uses another golden truth, only Battler and Beatrice can use the golden. The two truths are:

I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!

You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

The first truth needs no interpretation. That corpse belongs to Kinzo. The second truth needs interpretation. It seems to me that magic according to Beatrice is basically just lying or covering stuff up. At the beginning of EP3 Virgillia fixes a vase with magic. Then it falls apart again and the maid who sees the broken vase blames the cat that had run past it. The magic was that the maid was mistaken and it was Beatrice who broke the vase. Basically the second golden truth is Beatrice telling herself she did splendid trick/lie.

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by Renall

Is she that malicious, though? She'll scare somebody for a prank, but if she's worried she went a little too far and had something pretty scary, knowing (if indeed she knows!) that some disaster might be coming, is it worth releasing something that might get misinterpreted horribly?

For Beatrice? Yes. Note that in the first two games that she wrote that Beatrice made herself the culprit. She's basically taking the blame for whatever happens. I wouldn't call that malicious. Remember that she was planning on killing everyone. Not because of malice, but despair.

If the Ushiromiyas had survived those two days, they wouldn't mean anything. But since Eva basically didn't say anything about what had happened on the island and didn't oppose the letters they could be taken as an explanation for what had happened. The only reason people think they are fictitious in Ange's time is because Eva died in both those games.

[Renall]

If she knew about a potential disaster, though, she'd know those might be the only "accounts" of events to come out of it. Knowing that, it would be malicious to release an intentionally false account.

"Oh but she's blaming herself!" still makes it malicious if she wasn't planning to kill anyone but knew someone else was, or suspected people were going to die for some reason but didn't try to stop it. Obviously if she was planning to kill everyone/let everyone die, it isn't really inconsistent in any way. Nor would it be if she simply didn't expect anything to happen.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

My interpretation of the difference between golden and red truths is that only people that know the heart of the games can say it and it can only say the complete truth. Unless later someone else uses another golden truth, only Battler and Beatrice can use the golden. The two truths are:

You forgot about the final golden truth used in EP8 and how it relates to the red truth, in which Bernkastel believes without a doubt.

Ange is able to summon back all the Ushiromiyas and counter the One Truth she learned through the golden truth. She explained that the golden truth is 'a heart that believes' and unwavering faith in a certain truth. This golden truth can counter everything.
This is also underlined by how Will counters some of Yasu's tricks during the battle in EP7. The locked room chapel was only constructed through the golden truth, which for me implies that the chapel only presented itself as a perfect locked room because of something that everybody wanted to believe.

What makes the golden truth stronger than the red truth is, as we learned through the different characters (especially Maria), that it cannot loose to the red unless the person stops believing it to be true.
Ushiromiya Rosa maltreated her daughter, yet for Maria it will always be true that Ushiromiya Rosa was a wonderful mother.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Okay just wanted to apologize for not putting up the summaries for the ???. I wanted to post the entire thing in one go rather than in parts and I haven't finished it yet due to exams. I should be done with the entire ??? by tomorrow.

No need to apologize for not putting the summaries up, we oughta to be thanking you. If I were to be doing the summaries, I'd probably still be around the second or third part of the story at the most and it would be full of "here's some Kanji I don't quite understand" comments. I really can't complain about your speed, haha.

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by haguruma

You forgot about the final golden truth used in EP8 and how it relates to the red truth, in which Bernkastel believes without a doubt.

Alright, I did forget about it. My mistake. Which kind of bunks my interpretation of the golden truth.

And Renall, Beatrice did decide to send out the credit cards and the bottle letters. What were her exact reasons? Was what she did or did not do for malicious reasons?

My answer:

Spoiler for Why Beatrice sent out the bottles:

[Renall]

Could've been a reward for helping with her totally not-malicious dinner entertainment plan.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Ange is able to summon back all the Ushiromiyas and counter the One Truth she learned through the golden truth. She explained that the golden truth is 'a heart that believes' and unwavering faith in a certain truth. This golden truth can counter everything.

Let's not forget that the golden truth can be inferior to the red truth, depending on how it's used. In this scene and the final battle in EP5, the golden truth was effective against the red; however, unless you mean Ange's golden truth when you say "this golden truth," it'd be a stretch to say the golden truth in general can counter everything.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Let's not forget that the golden truth can be inferior to the red truth, depending on how it's used. In this scene and the final battle in EP5, the golden truth was effective against the red; however, unless you mean Ange's golden truth when you say "this golden truth," it'd be a stretch to say the golden truth in general can counter everything.

It can be pretty inferior when the one who uses it doesn't believe firmly in it or if it cann be completely broken apart by the red truth.
Because the cat box was never opened, every wonderful theory can exist, you can shout out any golden truth, because nobody can deny it. And things like "they exist, because they are alive in my heart" are especially hard to disprove as long as somebody like Ange believes in it.

But for example the golden truth "this is the body of Ushiromiya Kinzo" could be shattered if a red truth like "Ushiromiya Kinzo's body is no longer on Rokkenjima during 1986" would surface.
This body has to be Kinzo's body, because it cannot be any other body than Kinzo's and everybody believes it to be Kinzo because of it's additional toes.

[Kylon99]

Hey, I was thinking that you guys detecting that the red is subjective may be from the author level. At least for some of the reds, especially with some of the reds that may be proven wrong later, like for example the stuff about Erika.

The red and gold texts hold authority up to the meta-world, but definitely not in Rokkenjima Prime. The red is produced by Tooya and Yasu and, at least with Tooya/Battler, he seems to not mind speculating about things in red... which could be disproven later.


However, I'm sure the characters believe (if you think characters are capable of such a thing) in its absoluteness or objectiveness, since... their beliefs are dictated by the author. 8)

[Renall]

Well, reality doesn't have red truth. I think that even gets pointed out. So the only place it holds weight is the environment in which rules of that nature can be enforced (fictional "reality," or a meta-reality willing to play along for a while).