Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and he ended up going on with that stupid plan because he was already committed to it
supposing he wanted to stop it at that stage
how would he do that exactly ?
he already made himself the enemy of the entire world at that stage

"Uhh, sorry world, I kinda just did this because my sister had died... well, she's actually alive, so let's all get along, yes?
Thank you for understanding!"

*giggles* I bet Clovis could turn that into an awesome and convincing speech about justice and tragedy.

[Betteroffer]

He became hesitant when Lelouch was handing him the mask though, and he was clearly broken up about it as he cried while killing Lelouch.

The guidebook actually states that Lelouch accepted death as a punishment for everything he had done, while Suzaku accepted life, given his desire to die.

The following is a translation of part of Suzaku's profile from the guidebook.

"For those two who bear the heavy sin known as killing their fathers, they share the belief that they can forgive each other by imposing the greatest punishments on themselves. Death for Lelouch who wishes for a tomorrow with his sister, life for Suzaku who wishes to atone for his sins through death. Suzaku, who accepts the weight of Zero's mask, gives his gratitude to Lelouch. For the fact that he can atone for his sins. For the results of fulfilling his own wish."

Lelouch didn't want death in and of itself. He wanted to punish himself and chose death, as it was apparantly what he wanted least.

While he may have wanted to die once the Black Knights tried to kill him, as he told Rolo he had no more reasons to live, he came out of it around the Ragnarok junction at the latest as he declared "I desire tomorrow" to the Emperor just as his Geass evolved into both eyes.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and he ended up going on with that stupid plan because he was already committed to it
supposing he wanted to stop it at that stage
how would he do that exactly ?
he already made himself the enemy of the entire world at that stage

Here is how:
1) Jesus spoke to me and showed me my errors. I give up. I had an epiphany! I'm sorry!
2) It was a joke that went bad
3) I really hated my father
4) I disappear mysteriously along with my sister
5) I stage my death in a lot less fancy way and hit the streets (hey, that probably did happen)
6) Lelouch commands you to not hold a grudge against me
7) I did it to save you from my evil family's remnants
8) It wasn't me! It was my evil twin brother!
9) It wasn't me! It was someone wearing a mask that made him look like me. Yes, it is quite easy to do it too. Hey Ninja girl, wear that face and show them how. And you C.C. wear my Zero clothes and pretend it is me... See? Noone can tell the difference.
10) I was possessed by this magic eye that made me do things I didn't want to.
11) The Brittanian government denies knowledge
12) I am the ruler of the world so f***off
13) Make myself the worst bastard in history and commit suicide just for the heck of it when I can have a happy ending by picking any of the above choices.

And if you think it is hard to do all that, just see how many people think America went to the moon.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Just like Christ was betrayed by Judas


He kept on to this plan even after finding out she was alive. And boy, her surviving the explosion came out of nowhere.

As blade stated, Lelouch had already entered the "enemy of the world" state of his plan. There was no turning back.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

He became hesitant when Lelouch was handing him the mask though, and he was clearly broken up about it as he cried while killing Lelouch.

The guidebook actually states that Lelouch accepted death as a punishment for everything he had done, while Suzaku accepted life, given his desire to die.

The following is a translation of part of Suzaku's profile from the guidebook.


Lelouch didn't want death in and of itself. He wanted to punish himself and chose death, as it was apparantly what he wanted least.

While he may have wanted to die once the Black Knights tried to kill him, as he told Rolo he had no more reasons to live, he came out of it around the Ragnarok junction at the latest as he declared "I desire tomorrow" to the Emperor just as his Geass evolved into both eyes.

We've already been over this before. When he said "I desire tomorrow", he basically meant tomorrow for the world. In one of the Mutuality essays, one of Lelouch's laments is over how "Nunnally's gone", and he felt that he had nothing more to live for. There were other ways of atoning, like being a benevolent leader for the rest of his life, which would have been far more desirable than the outcome he chose, which involved drawing more blood. Conclusion: he was too fixated on seeking death to realize that the latter wasn't the proper method of atonement.

[roriconfan]

Yes there was. Read above

[azul120]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Yes there was. Read above

Schneizel would have called his bluff, more likely than not.

[Betteroffer]

He could have faked his death before, during, or after all the murder (preferably before).

Another idea would be that, upon his victory he forge some tapes with Geassed Schneizel, Kanon, and and others where Schneizel reveals his plan to nuke everyone, and similarly reveal tapes where he is explaining a plan to his Geassed subordinates where he will pretend to attack the UFN so that Schneizel will avoid nuking them right off as he thinks he can make them kill Lelouch for him.

Basically show the world that Schneizel would have flung nukes everywhere, killing billions and that Lelouch saved the UFN by making them victims of the Demon King before they could be victims of the White Prince.

This has the added benifit of turning all the soldiers he Geassed into unwilling heroes rather than unwilling villains.

Originally Posted by azul120

We've already been over this before. When he said "I desire tomorrow", he basically meant tomorrow for the world. In one of the Mutuality essays, one of Lelouch's laments is over how "Nunnally's gone", and he felt that he had nothing more to live for. There were other ways of atoning, like being a benevolent leader for the rest of his life, which would have been far more desirable than the outcome he chose, which involved drawing more blood. Conclusion: he was too fixated on seeking death to realize that the latter wasn't the proper method of atonement.

Where does he say or imply that he doesn't mean himself?

The Mutuality essays were those things written by Okuchi right? I'd forgotten that part. In that case it seems we have Word of God contradicting itself.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by azul120

Schneizel would have called his bluff, more likely than not.

He was geassed; it doesn't matter what he thinks.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

He could have faked his death before, during, or after all the murder (preferably before).

Another idea would be that, upon his victory he forge some tapes with Geassed Schneizel, Kanon, and and others where Schneizel reveals his plan to nuke everyone, and similarly reveal tapes where he is explaining a plan to his Geassed subordinates where he will pretend to attack the UFN so that Schneizel will avoid nuking them right off as he thinks he can make them kill Lelouch for him.

Basically show the world that Schneizel would have flung nukes everywhere, killing billions and that Lelouch saved the UFN by making them victims of the Demon King before they could be victims of the White Prince.

This has the added benifit of turning all the soldiers he Geassed into unwilling heroes rather than unwilling villains.

Good idea. Lelouch was not as smart as we think because if he was he he would have thought a much easier way to choose life over death.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

He could have faked his death before, during, or after all the murder (preferably before).

He would be one of the show's biggest Karma Houdinis if he faked his death after all the damage he caused if he were to deliberately fake his own death. The Zero Requiem was one big Genghis Gambit. He caused as much destruction as he did to bring his own death (and world peace as it were).

Where does he say or imply that he doesn't mean himself?

Lelouch was only rebuking Charles' and Marianne's plan for the Ragnarok Connection, which would deprive the whole world of a tomorrow. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

He was geassed; it doesn't matter what he thinks.

Lelouch geassed Schneizel AFTER that, almost two whole episodes later.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch was only rebuking Charles' and Marianne's plan for the Ragnarok Connection, which would deprive the whole world of a tomorrow. Nothing more.

I still think he also meant himself, which goes well together with the staff's statement that Lelouch wanted to live and therfore chose to die.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch was only rebuking Charles' and Marianne's plan for the Ragnarok Connection, which would deprive the whole world of a tomorrow. Nothing more.

In the fansubs I watched, he said "I" rather than "they" or even "we." I have not yet seen the dub or official sub, but unless these are different and/or the Japanese pronoun he used can be used for things like we, they, etc then it is a case of conflicting sources.

Originally Posted by azul120

He would be one of the show's biggest Karma Houdinis if he faked his death after all the damage he caused if he were to deliberately fake his own death. The Zero Requiem was one big Genghis Gambit. He caused as much destruction as he did to bring his own death (and world peace as it were).

As I said, preferably before all the murder. I wouldn't say he would be guaranteed Karma Houdini if he did so afterwards either, so long as he used his life appropriately and dedicated it to fixing the world and maintaining peace. I will say that it would be a very tough sell though.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

In the fansubs I watched, he said "I" rather than "they" or even "we." I have not yet seen the dub or official sub, but unless these are different and/or the Japanese pronoun he used can be used for things like we, they, etc then it is a case of conflicting sources.

Well, you could interpret it as, "I desire (a) tomorrow for this world!", I suppose...
But personally, I don't see it that way.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, you could interpret it as, "I desire (a) tomorrow for this world!", I suppose...
But personally, I don't see it that way.

He was still despondent in the Mutuality essays though, as I posted a little earlier, to the effect that he had given up on life.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

He was still despondent in the Mutuality essays though, as I posted a little earlier, to the effect that he had given up on life.

Where exactly in the Mutuality essays?
Yes, he wanted to be "punished", but I don't remember seeing him outright suicidal anywhere.

[azul120]

Well, he said there were other ways of stopping Schneizel and attaining world peace with less bloodshed and presumably without his death, but he insisted on Zero Requiem. Therefore, he must have had a deathwish if he rejected those less arduous methods.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Well, he said there were other ways of stopping Schneizel and attaining world peace with less bloodshed and presumably without his death, but he insisted on Zero Requiem. Therefore, he must have had a deathwish if he rejected those less arduous methods.

He said something about less bloodshed?
Also, in my opinion, that was him desiring "punishment", not him being particularly suicidal.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

Well, he said there were other ways of stopping Schneizel and attaining world peace with less bloodshed and presumably without his death, but he insisted on Zero Requiem. Therefore, he must have had a deathwish if he rejected those less arduous methods.

This is flawed logic. Even assuming he did desire death for its own sake, the rejection of one method over another does not prove or disprove it. I can just as easily use your first sentence and claim "Therefore, he must have wanted to finally beat Schneizel in something/help Nunally grow up/chill out on Jupiter with Clovis."

[azul120]

He didn't know Nunnally was alive. And "chill out on Jupiter with Clovis"? Too trivial.

Lelouch probably desired punishment, and yet he still could have had it in a sense by making himself the Emperor of Britannia and consigning himself to work for the benefit of the world, ignoring his personal happiness.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

This is flawed logic. Even assuming he did desire death for its own sake, the rejection of one method over another does not prove or disprove it. I can just as easily use your first sentence and claim "Therefore, he must have wanted to finally beat Schneizel in something/help Nunally grow up/chill out on Jupiter with Clovis."

B-but the last one is true!
...Echem. xD
Nunnally was still "dead" at that point, but I think it's a fact that Lelouch said nothing about what kinds of "other ways" there "may" have been, except that the context makes it clear he would have come out alive.
More people might have died, the outcome might not have been a peace quite as stable. Lelouch joked with Suzaku like in old times, they brought up Nunnally while doing so, and he didn't seem to be in despair at all. He just felt it would be wrong to keep living after all that he had done, which is why Suzaku kneeled before him and told him how deeply he respected his resolve.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

He didn't know Nunnally was alive. And "chill out on Jupiter with Clovis"? Too trivial.

Lelouch probably desired punishment, and yet he still could have had it in a sense by making himself the Emperor of Britannia and consigning himself to work for the benefit of the world, ignoring his personal happiness.

Again the arguement does not give anything to the idea that Lelouch was bent on his own death purely because he wanted death, as he also could have let Suzaku kill him right there in the Thought Elevator.

@Nogitsune: From what I remember, it is only said that there may be other methods of stopping Schneizel, but Lelouch's mind is made up and he won't consider other options. No specifics were given, but as I said, I'm going from memory.