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Old 2011-08-05, 08:34   Link #141
Discerptor
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[snip]

Quote:
-"That genjutsu is an order to protect the village of Konoha." -Okay, so overriding Kabuto's control I get, but shouldn't this new command be making him immediately protect Konoha in whatever way he can? It looks like it's just given him free will. Shouldn't he be going off to fight all of Kabuto/Madara's forces instead of just standing around and expositing everything? To what degree of control does this jutsu have?
Clearly the way to protect Konoha is to run away and let a rampaging full-power Nagato kill/capture the two people Madara needs to end the world. Your powers of logic are truly amazing.

Quote:
-Okay, seriously, what is up with Shisui? He's only been mentioned once or twice, but apparently he was the best genjutsu user in the whole Uchiha clan? Why does he have a special jutsu that no other Uchiha has? How does this fit in with anything?
This is something that was introduced with Danzou having Shisui's eye and using his jutsu at the Five Kage Summit. In fact, different Mangekyous having different powers was introduced long before even that with Kakashi's Kamui. It's a thing. It's not that new. Get over it.

Quote:
-I know it's been mentioned before, but how does zombie Itachi still have the sharingan? Does this mean there are effectively two sets of Itachi's eyes running around?
Kabuchimaru spent an entire chapter explaining how Edo Tensei works. If you still don't get it, might I suggest a reading comprehension course? I'm not even being insulting here; this is genuine advice. If the jutsu creates a perfect copy of Itachi's body and chakra in the state it was when he died using a dead guy and Itachi's soul, does that jutsu create Itachi's eyes, which are a part of his body? Extra credit if you can name two other body parts that would also be created.

Quote:
-"I embedded the command "protect Konoha" as a genjutus into Shisui's eye." -Umm...how? And furthermore how did he "rig the crow." Oh right, it's ninja magic, so they can do anything that's convenient for the plot.
Itachi has already demonstrated the ability to implant specific reactive eye jutsus into people's eyes, as he did with implanting his own Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye not a day after he shoved this very same crow down Naruto's throat. It's an ability Itachi has been shown to have; it's not new. Get over it.

Quote:
-"If the brother I left behind became a threat to the village, as the keeper of Shisui's eye, it would mean I betrayed his trust." -...........WHAT?!!!! How does that follow anything you were talking about? What does that have to do with self-sacrifice or you safeguarding Shisui's eye?
Shisui entrusted his eye to Itachi so to protect the village, because he believed that's what Itachi would do; he even went off and died silently, giving Itachi his Mangekyou. If Sasuke destroys Konoha because of what Itachi made him to be, that makes Itachi feel like crap given all Shisui trusted him with and did for him. Again, the reading comprehension course would be useful.

Quote:
-"I believed Sasuke would transplant my eyes." - Why would you believe that? Weren't you trying to keep Sasuke away from the path of vengeance and power-hungriness? You seemed surprised when you heard that Madara had told Sasuke the truth, so obviously you weren't counting on that.
It's called having a backup plan. Itachi already expressed his concern that there was a possibility Sasuke might turn to the dark side. Back when he shoved the crow down Naruto's throat, in fact. 2+2=?

Quote:
-"Shisui's Mangekyo requires at least another decade to activate, discounting Senju Hashirama's chakra, unlikely as that is." .......Hoo boy this is a doozy. Okay, aside from the arbitrariness of the 10 year limit, which is a completely transparent plot convience, how the hell did anyone ascertain that Hashirama's chakra reduced the limit on Shisui's Mangekyo? I mean, I know people have been making a big deal about his chakra recently, but what does his chakra have to do with the Sharingan? And if I understand correctly, the Akomatsukami or whatever it is is a very specific technique that only one person is able to use, so how did anyone come to the conclusion of, "Hey, let's take the chakra of this powerful shinobi dude and apply it to a technique that only this one Uchiha dude is able to use, despite the fact that Hashirama's chakra has shown to have no effect on any other Sharingan technique............well waddya know?! It worked!" Seriously, I must be missing something here, because this makes no damn sense.
Yes, 10 years is a plot convenience. So was the cooldown on Orochimaru's body transfer jutsu being around the same amount of time the Akatsuki needed before starting to capture the Junchuuriki. So is every relevant piece of information in every story ever. Get over it. And the reference to Hashirama's chakra was obviously put in to explain why Danzou's version of the jutsu had a cooldown less than 24 hours in length. Oh hey, wouldn't it be grand if Itachi mentioned knowing Danzou had taken Shisui's eye so he would have known about how the jutsu is changed by Hashi-- oh wait, he did! Isn't that something?

Quote:
-Oh, and not to mention that Itachi's entire plan is mind control. As in free-will-destroying mind control. This is what he wants to do to his little brother whom he supposedly loved (well, I guess it fits in with massacring his clan right in front of him)? And we're supposed to see this as a noble act?
If you can find me one text blurb anywhere in this chapter describing it as a noble act, I'll keep you off my ignore list for a whole other day.

Last edited by james0246; 2011-08-05 at 23:26. Reason: Please be a little more courteous in the future and focus on the discussion not the posters...
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Old 2011-08-05, 09:25   Link #142
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
We feared that the power of Itachi and Nagato will be downplayed too much, but what is happening is exactly the opposite, for the first time in this manga they used their full power [...]
Didn't you state not too long ago that these zombies are weak compared to their original selves?
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Old 2011-08-05, 11:20   Link #143
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If i were kabuto i would take a sample of blood from Shisui’s eye's and revive him!! Then he could control madara, as simple as that!!
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Old 2011-08-05, 11:25   Link #144
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Originally Posted by quebas View Post
If i were kabuto i would take a sample of blood from Shisui’s eye's and revive him!! Then he could control madara, as simple as that!!
That's why Kabuto feels lucky by finding that Shisui's eye is still exists out there instead of dissapointed by the fact he lose Itachi.

Itachi in Naruto side.
It's a much more better plot device to convince Sasuke rather than just using Naruto words.

Nagato goes in full strength.
Bee is unconcious, leaving Naruto and Itachi to defeat him.
Considering how Nagato can easily repel Amaterasu by Shinra Tensei, the trump card will be Susanoo.
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Old 2011-08-05, 11:59   Link #145
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Don't forget that we never got to see the last tombstone... it's probably Shisui. Shisui was supposed to have disappeared... but if Madara is that shocked at the last tombstone... it's probably Shisui.
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Old 2011-08-05, 12:36   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Considering how Nagato can easily repel Amaterasu by Shinra Tensei, the trump card will be Susanoo.
He might be able to absorb Susanoo's chakra like the kyuubi chakra. I would like if it came down to Tsukuyomi, and hopefully this fight will settle once and for all which is the ultimate doujutsu.
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Old 2011-08-05, 15:34   Link #147
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Didn't you state not too long ago that these zombies are weak compared to their original selves?
That's still true in general, otherwise a Nagato+Itachi combo would have already killed Naruto and Bee. What i meant is that Nagato and Itachi used all of their powers now, but that does not mean that Kabuto can use them as if they were in control of their bodies. I mean a body in itself doesn't make a great ninja, you need the mind/soul of a great ninja too. So even if all their powers are at Kabuto's disposal now but as zombies they will not fight as if they were the real Itachi and Nagato. But even when being controlled by Kabuto, it's still a great thing to see all their powers displayed. And now there is a chance that we see the real Itachi, since he got control of his own body now, if Kabuto doesn't unsummon him a possible Nagato vs Itachi might be epic. So i used the wrong word by saying full power, what i meant is all the powers of their bodies are being used by Kabuto. We have never seen Itachi spamming MS or Nagato fighting as "the sage", now there is a chance to see all that.
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Old 2011-08-05, 15:42   Link #148
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
If you can find me one text blurb anywhere in this chapter describing it as a noble act, I'll keep you off my ignore list for a whole other day.
Discerptor, whilst you've have made some great points, this is the one thing that I have to disagree with. Naruto actually says: "You've done more than enough for the villiage already. Leave the rest to me.". He's essentially said that what Itachi did was a noble thing and everyone here knows that Naruto opinions are the moral compass in this manga.So it does sound to me like the chapter is describing it as a noble act even though it's in the very least incredibly controversal.
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Old 2011-08-05, 16:25   Link #149
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I believe he was referring to the whole Uchiha massacre and taking the fall for the sake of the village thing with that statement. Referring specifically to brainwashing Sasuke is not likely, since technically Itachi hadn't done that yet (nor will he ever get the chance to now). But more importantly, saying you've valued a soldier's service in a de facto retirement speech isn't the same as agreeing with everything he's done and the way he did them. It means just that: "Thanks for all you've done, and now we'll take it from here." If anything, it simply acknowledges that Naruto believes everything Itachi did was for the village. While we could say the same for Danzou, I don't think anyone would be giving him awards for morality.
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Old 2011-08-05, 21:29   Link #150
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I'd rather talk about why I put you on my ignore list a long time ago and have only taken you off briefly due to how terrible the bits of your post I've seen quoted are. But that would be off topic.
Whoa, careful dude. Word of the wise, if you say anything even remotely offensive in this forum they'll ban you like there's no tomorrow.

...Oh wait, that only applies to people who have the minority opinion. Nevermind.

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Clearly the way to protect Konoha is to run away and let a rampaging full-power Nagato kill/capture the two people Madara needs to end the world. Your powers of logic are truly amazing.
Yeah, or maybe he should be immediately attacking Nagato instead of just standing around and expositing for 5 minutes. Actually, anything except doing that.

Quote:
This is something that was introduced with Danzou having Shisui's eye and using his jutsu at the Five Kage Summit.
Shisui is supposed to be the best genjutsu user in the entire series and he's only been briefly mentioned 2 or 3 times, and has had a maximum of 5 panels of screen time. He's the most transparent plot device ever. Actually, he's not a plot device, he's a plot fairy.

Quote:
In fact, different Mangekyous having different powers was introduced long before even that with Kakashi's Kamui. It's a thing. It's not that new. Get over it.
Did Kakashi explain that each person's Mangekyo has a unique power at the time? Honestly, I have only the vaguest memory of him even using that technique. Have any other Mangekyo users shown unique powers? What are Itachi's and Sasuke's unique powers?

Quote:
Itachi has already demonstrated the ability to implant specific reactive eye jutsus into people's eyes, as he did with implanting his own Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye not a day after he shoved this very same crow down Naruto's throat. It's an ability Itachi has been shown to have; it's not new. Get over it.
Right. So HOW does he do it?

Quote:
It's called having a backup plan. Itachi already expressed his concern that there was a possibility Sasuke might turn to the dark side. Back when he shoved the crow down Naruto's throat, in fact. 2+2=?
Right. So WHY did Itachi think Sasuke might turn to the dark side?

Quote:
Yes, 10 years is a plot convenience. So was the cooldown on Orochimaru's body transfer jutsu being around the same amount of time the Akatsuki needed before starting to capture the Junchuuriki.
Oh yeah. Was that ever explained?
Quote:
So is every relevant piece of information in every story ever. Get over it.
Hahaha, no. This is what we call "the author writing himself into a corner." See, most authors will establish plot points and pieces of information in a gradual and well-paced manner using various literary devices. But what Kishi has done here is attempted to tie-up a loose end by creating an extremely arbitrary plot point at the last minute to make it appear that it somehow makes sense.
Quote:
And the reference to Hashirama's chakra was obviously put in to explain why Danzou's version of the jutsu had a cooldown less than 24 hours in length. Oh hey, wouldn't it be grand if Itachi mentioned knowing Danzou had taken Shisui's eye so he would have known about how the jutsu is changed by Hashi-- oh wait, he did! Isn't that something?
My point was that combining Hashirama's chakra with Shisui's technique was arbitrary and made no sense. See, this is another example of Kishi making a rushed and arbitrary wrap-up of a plot point at the last minute.

Also, the 10 year limit didn't even exist until this chapter. For all we knew, Shisui could've used the technique as often as Danzo could.

Quote:
If you can find me one text blurb anywhere in this chapter describing it as a noble act, I'll keep you off my ignore list for a whole other day.
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
I believe he was referring to the whole Uchiha massacre and taking the fall for the sake of the village thing with that statement. Referring specifically to brainwashing Sasuke is not likely, since technically Itachi hadn't done that yet (nor will he ever get the chance to now). But more importantly, saying you've valued a soldier's service in a de facto retirement speech isn't the same as agreeing with everything he's done and the way he did them. It means just that: "Thanks for all you've done, and now we'll take it from here." If anything, it simply acknowledges that Naruto believes everything Itachi did was for the village. While we could say the same for Danzou, I don't think anyone would be giving him awards for morality.
Kishi portrayed Itachi's actions in a noble light. He wants us to like Itachi for attempting to do this. And Naruto certainly didn't seem to have any problem with it, and we all know he'd be the first to speak up if anyone dared cross his lover friend.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:13   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Did Kakashi explain that each person's Mangekyo has a unique power at the time? Honestly, I have only the vaguest memory of him even using that technique. Have any other Mangekyo users shown unique powers? What are Itachi's and Sasuke's unique powers?
Sasuke's Enton, until we're shown otherwise, may as well be treated as a unique power for him. So I guess that could count.

Quote:
Right. So WHY did Itachi think Sasuke might turn to the dark side?
As I recall, he said around that time that Sasuke would be a blank slate after he killed Itachi. Itachi's fear that Sasuke might turn against Konoha stemmed from knowing that Sasuke could go just about anywhere once he lost his driving goal of killing his brother. I think so, at least.
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:23   Link #152
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...Oh wait, that only applies to people who have the minority opinion. Nevermind.
If you every encounter any problems (being hassled, etc), use the handy report button instead of commenting about a potential problem in thread. I (or others) can't help you unless I/we know of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Yeah, or maybe he should be immediately attacking Nagato instead of just standing around and expositing for 5 minutes. Actually, anything except doing that.
He did attack Nagato, in fact, if it wasn't for Shinra Tensei (which there is no reason Itachi should have known about), Nagato would have been more or less defeated (since Amaterasu would constantly be burning the body even as it tries to recompose)...

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Right. So HOW does he do it?
Fuinjutsu (Sealing). That is how Itachi placed an Amaterasu trap inside Sasuke's eye, and that is how he placed a genjutsu command in Shisui's eye.

Last edited by james0246; 2011-08-05 at 23:34.
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:30   Link #153
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Too convenient. There are just too many coincidence.

Bad guy: "I got you"
Good guy: "You really think so? See my power!" or "I saw it coming!"
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:31   Link #154
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Too convenient. There are just too many coincidence.

Bad guy: "I got you"
Good guy: "You really think so? See my power!" or "I saw it coming!"
Once a series introduces 1-shot kill moves, that's pretty much one of the only two outcomes that can happen. The other being... a 1-shot kill, which obviously doesn't lead to strong sales.
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Old 2011-08-06, 01:06   Link #155
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As I recall, he said around that time that Sasuke would be a blank slate after he killed Itachi. Itachi's fear that Sasuke might turn against Konoha stemmed from knowing that Sasuke could go just about anywhere once he lost his driving goal of killing his brother. I think so, at least.
So Sasuke would attack Konoha just.....because? Is that what you're saying?

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If you every encounter any problems (being hassled, etc), use the handy report button instead of commenting about a potential problem in thread. I (or others) can't help you unless I/we know of the situation.
Dude, I don't care. I can take a bit of smack talk as long as the person is making a legitimate argument.

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He did attack Nagato, in fact, if it wasn't for Shinra Tensei (which there is no reason Itachi should have known about), Nagato would have been more or less defeated (since Amaterasu would constantly be burning the body even as it tries to recompose)...
Yeah, don't even bother checking and just assume that the immortal zombie of the Rinnegan user is dead. That is just so shinobi of him.

Quote:
Fuinjutsu (Sealing). That is how Itachi placed an Amaterasu trap inside Sasuke's eye, and that is how he placed a genjutsu command in Shisui's eye.
You know what, I could buy that. But what really irks me is how the seal somehow just unlocks when it's in the general vicinity of Itachi's eyes. It would be one thing if it was unlocked with a key or a ritual, but...just being near Itachi's eyes? How does it know? It just seems so vague and convenient to the plot.
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Old 2011-08-06, 05:57   Link #156
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So Sasuke would attack Konoha just.....because? Is that what you're saying?
I think what Itachi feared was that Sasuke, as a blank slate, could be manipulated by just about anybody to do just about anything. Up to and including being turned into an enemy of Konoha; not 'just 'cause.' And as we see, Madara did just that.
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Old 2011-08-06, 11:12   Link #157
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I just assumed that Itachi suspected Madara would try and manipulate him against Konoha. It's not like Sasuke's motive for revenge doesn't have a basis. The segregation and eventual massacre of clan he belonged to and clearly had a lot of pride in is more than enough reason, and Madara could've told him at any point.
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Old 2011-08-06, 13:12   Link #158
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
You know what, I could buy that. But what really irks me is how the seal somehow just unlocks when it's in the general vicinity of Itachi's eyes. It would be one thing if it was unlocked with a key or a ritual, but...just being near Itachi's eyes? How does it know? It just seems so vague and convenient to the plot.
It reacts to a Mangekyo Sharingan specifically activated using Itachi's eyes,here's your key/ritual you wanted.

I'm not sure what you are not satisfied with,that's the way it works,just like we can make a certain program/event trigger when a condition is met,this is how it works in their world.
Maybe the sealing is complicated,but this is what it was meant to do,this is how Itachi "programmed" it.

It seems like you're just trying to prove that Kishi sucks at writing,since you keep expressing your dissatisfaction with one explanation or another.
I understand that the manga is not perfect,but you also have to understand that it's a shonen manga,as another author you want more details,but an average person would want more action,just my opinion,because i honestly don't care how it works(even though it has been explained).
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Old 2011-08-06, 14:11   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
My point was that combining Hashirama's chakra with Shisui's technique was arbitrary and made no sense. See, this is another example of Kishi making a rushed and arbitrary wrap-up of a plot point at the last minute.
The point about combining the cells is because the rikkudo sennin is a combination of uchiha and senjuu. The uchiha got the body an the senjuu got the chakra. So I assume the body burns out without the chakra.. And the chakra can't reach te maximum potential without the body to handle it. Replace body with eyes and it makes more sense.. Kind of.

What I don't understand is howcome nagato (an uzumaki) didn't need any uchiha gene splicing in order to control the rinnengan.. Nor does Madara (apparently) need senju chakra for his rinnengan.. But everyone needs uchiha AND senjuu (hashirama) chakra innorder to use the sharingan to the maximum potential.
Edit: Madara has has hashiramas cells inside his body (the zetsu) while using rinnengan. So does that mean nagato has some uchiha heritage/gene splicing? Or is that why he became decrepit?
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Old 2011-08-06, 19:31   Link #160
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I think what Itachi feared was that Sasuke, as a blank slate, could be manipulated by just about anybody to do just about anything. Up to and including being turned into an enemy of Konoha; not 'just 'cause.' And as we see, Madara did just that.
Sounds like a stretch. But hey, if you can show me a page where Itachi actually said something to this affect.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I just assumed that Itachi suspected Madara would try and manipulate him against Konoha.
Apparently not since he seemed surprised to hear that Madara had told Sasuke the truth.

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Originally Posted by noktown View Post
It reacts to a Mangekyo Sharingan specifically activated using Itachi's eyes,here's your key/ritual you wanted.

I'm not sure what you are not satisfied with,that's the way it works,just like we can make a certain program/event trigger when a condition is met,this is how it works in their world.
Maybe the sealing is complicated,but this is what it was meant to do,this is how Itachi "programmed" it.
How does it know Itachi's Mangekyo has been activated? Does the crow somehow see the Mangekyo being activated from inside of Naruto? Does it have some sort of internal radar that picks up Itachi's Mangekyo chakra signal (if that's even a thing)?

Quote:
It seems like you're just trying to prove that Kishi sucks at writing,since you keep expressing your dissatisfaction with one explanation or another.
Yeah, and...?
Quote:
I understand that the manga is not perfect,
Quite the understatement.
Quote:
but you also have to understand that it's a shonen manga,
Really? I thought it was a yaoi manga.
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as another author you want more details,
Details are not the issue here. And that dumb little insignia above my avatar has nothing to do with my opinion of this series.
Quote:
but an average person would want more action,
Please don't tell me you think action alone automatically makes something good.
Quote:
just my opinion,because i honestly don't care how it works(even though it has been explained).
You should care how it works, because it's pretty important that an author follows the laws of the universe he/she has established for the story.
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Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
The point about combining the cells is because the rikkudo sennin is a combination of uchiha and senjuu. The uchiha got the body an the senjuu got the chakra. So I assume the body burns out without the chakra.. And the chakra can't reach te maximum potential without the body to handle it. Replace body with eyes and it makes more sense.. Kind of.

What I don't understand is howcome nagato (an uzumaki) didn't need any uchiha gene splicing in order to control the rinnengan.. Nor does Madara (apparently) need senju chakra for his rinnengan.. But everyone needs uchiha AND senjuu (hashirama) chakra innorder to use the sharingan to the maximum potential.
Edit: Madara has has hashiramas cells inside his body (the zetsu) while using rinnengan. So does that mean nagato has some uchiha heritage/gene splicing? Or is that why he became decrepit?
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Reread my post.

Last edited by Nobodyman9; 2011-08-06 at 21:08.
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