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Old 2013-02-07, 14:20   Link #11981
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The fact that Medaka hasn't is why people are calling her greedy.
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Who is the person calling her a monster again? It's Iihiko, a monster himself. That's the irony.
Right, and the Greek Chorus there in the back is agreeing with him. We're supposed to take this at face value.
As an aside, I really liked those two this chapter.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:37   Link #11982
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
I never said it makes you a bad person, I said that from a certain viewpoint, it can be seen as being greedy.

Quote:
Right, and the Greek Chorus there in the back is agreeing with him. We're supposed to take this at face value.
As an aside, I really liked those two this chapter.
The Greek Chorus? Oh, you mean Kotobuki, the woman who uses babies as hostages, and her accomplice, Kakegae?

Kotobuki, at least, is the same sort of monster as Fukurou, which is a different sort of monster from Iihiko, but still a monster, so forgive me if I don't take the fact that they agree with Iihiko to mean we should agree with Iihiko.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:41   Link #11983
Spinell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So, acting in an ideal way makes you a bad person? What?
The whole problem with the way Medaka behaved before the election was that she was behaving that way for the wrong reasons. That's why calling her a monster back then made sense. Now it doesn't.
From Iihikos point of view it makes sense. Shiranui copied Iihiko. Theres nothing left to fight over, even worse she would destroy in that fight the body of the person she tries to safe. If anything she could try to appeal to whats left of Shiranui. Thats what Nienamie will try, supported by her style, i predict.
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Old 2013-02-07, 14:59   Link #11984
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't take the fact that they agree with Iihiko to mean we should agree with Iihiko.
Why not? Their purpose here was to exposit.
Well, maybe I'm wrong and next chapter we'll get some admittance that, no, Medaka should no longer be considered a monster. Then I will be satisfied.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:07   Link #11985
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why not? Their purpose here was to exposit.
Why not? Because morally speaking, their views are repugnant, and their reasoning is repugnant, so the fact that they agree with Iihiko is supposed to clue us in that Iihiko is wrong here.

Quote:
Well, maybe I'm wrong and next chapter we'll get some admittance that, no, Medaka should no longer be considered a monster. Then I will be satisfied.
I thought we got that a while back, but to each their own.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:10   Link #11986
Thth
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Speaking of monsters I hope Fukurou comes back, beats Iihiko and proposes to the now Hansode-Iihiko. They'll make an excelent family . I won't put it beyond Fukurou..
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:30   Link #11987
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Why not? Because morally speaking, their views are repugnant, and their reasoning is repugnant, so the fact that they agree with Iihiko is supposed to clue us in that Iihiko is wrong here.
I don't think it's presented that way at all. Maybe I need to put more thought into this though, you're right.
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Old 2013-02-07, 15:42   Link #11988
Lupus753
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Ofttimes, it is difficult to differentiate between "obvious author stand-in soapboxing" and "we are supposed to not agree with these people, it is only their opinion". Especially since even villains can serve as the author's mouthpiece, on occasion.
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Old 2013-02-07, 18:06   Link #11989
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Trying to save your friend from being possessed by Satan even at the cost of your own life is admirable human behaviour. It's exactly what people should do in this sort of situation.
And, yet, she's still a 'monster'. Why? She's not doing it for the 'wrong' reasons anymore.
The action being admirable doesn't make the motivation any less selfish though.

Yep. This is no longer a matter of her being selfish or selfless anymore. By virtue of her sheer stubbornness, her absolute refusal to submit to anyone else's standards, she's a monster right down to the core. Take note that calling her a "monster" doesn't mean that she's an abhorrent person, but rather that she's completely alien to the idea of humanity. She's too perfect a person, right down to her unshakeable will. Even Iiihiko, who used to a hero, couldn't keep fighting until the end.
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Old 2013-02-07, 18:21   Link #11990
Knighto
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^And here I thought I was the only one who thought that. Shame rep is disabled.
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Old 2013-02-07, 19:20   Link #11991
novalysis
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Then replace monster with inhuman. Monster is a loaded and highly misleading term with implications of morality.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:45   Link #11992
OmegaShadow
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Well, her heart has been destroyed. There's a hole that has the size of a hand with pretty sharp claws in her stomach. Her body is covered in injuries since her fight against Iihiko in Shiranui village - who used nothing more than glasses to utterly defeat her. She saw her attack being reflected, and right after she came back and used her final trump card...Iihiko just came back, possessing Shiranui's body. Right after, he blocked her strongest attack with nothing more than a single finger. In my point of view this is already more than enough for someone to despair, but Iihiko went as far as killing(?) her friends right in front of her...And she was still trying to stop him.

...After all this, you can't really blame Iihiko for calling her a monster. At this point, a lot of heroes would be probably reaching the despair event horizon.
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Old 2013-02-07, 20:50   Link #11993
Lupus753
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I thought it was expected for Shonen heroes to never give up, never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue. Shonen heroes must be terrible at poker.
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Old 2013-02-07, 21:28   Link #11994
runset
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
I thought it was expected for Shonen heroes to never give up, never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue. Shonen heroes must be terrible at poker.
that's true, but the reason why they never give up and never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue is because they have purpose. the purpose usually is about "for my friend" or "to "protect something", if the purpose was lost then do you expect them to continue. (like ichigo from bleach when all of his friend memories were modified)
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Old 2013-02-07, 22:11   Link #11995
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Then replace monster with inhuman. Monster is a loaded and highly misleading term with implications of morality.
This, although I don't know the Japanese term they're using.
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Old 2013-02-08, 00:16   Link #11996
Thth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runset View Post
that's true, but the reason why they never give up and never fold even if they have absolutely no logical reason to continue is because they have purpose. the purpose usually is about "for my friend" or "to "protect something", if the purpose was lost then do you expect them to continue. (like ichigo from bleach when all of his friend memories were modified)
Except the purpose she came to this place,i.e, save Shiranui,save her 'friend', is still there. And good amount Shonen heroes do keep going if that is the case.

Last edited by Thth; 2013-02-08 at 00:44.
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Old 2013-02-08, 07:03   Link #11997
ccie20012
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Medaka or too stupid. Or too smart.
I'm hoping for the latter. I really liked Medaka from the last arc.
As she calmly and coldly calculate all the options for save Zen.
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Old 2013-02-08, 08:09   Link #11998
Sol Falling
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"Bakemono" is a fine word to describe Medaka. I disagree that the word "monster" carries any moral implications--it represents only a judgement, a presumption, on the part of the accuser. By nature, the word "monster" only carries connotations of something unknown, beyond comprehension, of the ones using that word. Fear, desperation, uncertainty--to be called a monster is to be put into a position of inherent superiority.

All sentient minds, born into the social context of humanity, will tend to think of themselves as "human" (or try to become "human"). By developing some natural concept of "human" within themselves, they come to naturally define a contrasting intuition called "monster". The accusations of Medaka's 'monstrosity' right now belong to Iihiko alone. Kakegae and Kotobuki might agree with him conceptually, but it is only Iihiko himself who has experienced the irrational feelings of fear and repulsion.

Iihiko defined a "hero" to be "a person with a purpose". And he defined a "human" to be "someone who lives just to live". Beyond these two definitions, other types of human are beyond his comprehension. That is why Medaka has become a monster to him: because she has been reduced into a mess possessing neither a purpose, nor the self-preservational instinct necessary to live.

Medaka's trampling by Iihiko represents a complete breakdown of her self. There is no way to treat her senseless "determination" as a victory; neither any way to believe she carries any hint of her former heroic nobility. Instead, what Medaka's singleminded desperation (and the results it brought her) can represent is only something broken; as Kakegae said, someone like a chronic gambler, spiralling into self-destruction. However, what I think Medaka's breakdown proves in itself is Medaka's humanity--because humans are irrational, weak, self-destructive and pointless. Iihiko's neat, rational explanations "Heroes have a purpose", "Humans just try to live" are precisely the reason why Medaka became an incomprehensible monster to him--he cannot comprehend irrationality, can't hope to grasp self-destructive weaknesses.

Medaka is superior to Iihiko in the nature of being human. That is the victory I think she earned over Iihiko in this chapter. She is human because only someone with Iihiko's monstrous strength could call Medaka's actions in this chapter those of a monster. Medaka only did something any weak, irrational, desperate human, would be capable of doing--clinging onto someone's legs, and not giving up.
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Old 2013-02-08, 12:22   Link #11999
ccie20012
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I want to say: I am absolutely not satisfied with this chapter.
Return please to me a "true" Medaka. This is sort of a fake - as is Medaka-3.
True Medaka never despaired. True Medaka always thought in a critical situation as a calculator.
True Medaka always collated goal and means.
Shiranui why is so important to her? This is what is skewed to mad battle manga, where friendship more important than love or other people?
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Old 2013-02-08, 12:24   Link #12000
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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@Sol Falling:
See, I don't agree. How are we supposed to tell the difference between the author's opinion and the opinion of his characters (especially at this juncture)?
This chapter felt more like the former than anything else, which is why I'm so pissed-off.
You could argue that no sane person would truly view Medaka's actions here as worthy of condemnation, but this is the guy who wrote several books about how victims of bullying and parental abuse are responsible for their own misery, so...
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