Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Dr. Casey]

Ah. My apologies.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Despair is not the opposite of hope, but rather the absence of all hope, as in the case of inevitable human death, or the death of the universe. In this way, in Gen's worldview, "hope" and "despair" are not actually equal: despair actually wins, and is the inevitable reality, because despair is the "negation" of hope equivalent to "balance", nothingness, Entropy, zero.

I don't think it works quite like this. I mean, entropy isn't really the decay of all things or a "negation" that leads to nothingness. Zero doesn't mean "nothing" and the end of the universe doesn't mean that the universe would cease to exit. Entropy is the inability to "produce" usable energy, not the lack of energy.

What I'm getting at is that a universe that gets to its end by entropy is not a universe that becomes nothing, but rather a universe that becomes stagnant. The energy is still there, but it can't be used anymore. This is because the universe is a closed system, and a closed system tends to balance itself, which is, in an awfully simplified way, what entropy really means. The universe as it is now is in constant change, in constant "conversion of energy". Energy that can be converted is usable energy. But at some point the universe will balance itself to the point there wont be more change, there wont be more conversion of energy, and therefore the energy wont be usable anymore (even though it will still be there).

If you see it this way, then an entropy model for the universe and magical girls system doesn't necessarily contradict the concept of karma; they kind of complement each other actually. And in fact the series talks about entropy and karma all mixed up together (although it depends on the translation I suppose).

At the end of the series Madoka's wish ended up expelling Madoka from the closed system (hence her existence doesn't have a beginning nor an end anymore) but everyone else is still trapped inside, in a universe that, by trying to find its own balance, is inexorably leading to its own demise. And once it managed to find its perfect balance, then that's it, that's the end.

Now the magical girls are elements that contradict entropy (which is the same as saying they contradict logic and balance) because they can produce new energy, which is impossible in a closed system such as this universe (that's why Kybey is interested in them in the first place). The wishes fail and also the witches (and later maju) exist because even though the magical girl's existence contradicts entropy/logic/balance, they are still part of this universe, so they are still subject to its constant struggle for balance, which is what creates the "distortions", distortions that take whatever form they can: in the case of Sayaka, she manged to bring Kamijo happiness, but she had to pay by becoming a witch; Kyoko, on the other hand, didn't become a witch, but her family got the short end of the stick in her place. So it doesn't matter how, as long as they are inside the closed system, they have to pay. Since entropy applies to everything inside the closed system, it'd be nonsensical to think the consequences and drawbacks of becoming a magical girl and making a wish would only manifest themselves by having your soul gem becoming a grief seed. Rather, entropy will try to balance itself in whatever way it can, even if such a balance is the path that leads to the end of the universe.

[Sol Falling]

I think the difference in what you and I are conceptualizing is that I think of the wishes themselves as the "distortions" in the logical/entropic universe. The universe/entropy is always seeking balance, so it will always immediately react to any distortions that appear. The stronger and more evident the distortions are, the faster the universe will react. Thus entropy will tear down the any happiness a Puella Magi might be able to gain by the way of wishes, and eventually reduce her to the same as everybody else, as any other unfortunate human.

However, the universe does not need to create "distortions" to counteract the "distortions" introduced by wishes. Rather, because the "distortions" are illogical and unnatural in themselves, the logical and natural forces of the universe will naturally cause them to fade away. Rather than "opposing" the magical girls' happiness, I see the universe as "negating" it.

That's why I do not see that things like Kamijou being uninterested in Sayaka after his recovery, or Kyouko's father snapping when he discovered how empty his preaching was, as unnatural "distortions". They are simply logical progressions of the natural functioning of the universe. Comparatively, things like Maju and Witches can be clearly seen as unnatural by-products of the magical wish system, so they can be classified "distortions" in the same manner as Puella Magis' wishes.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I think the difference in what you and I are conceptualizing is that I think of the wishes themselves as the "distortions" in the logical/entropic universe. The universe/entropy is always seeking balance, so it will always immediately react to any distortions that appear. The stronger and more evident the distortions are, the faster the universe will react. Thus entropy will tear down the any happiness a Puella Magi might be able to gain by the way of wishes, and eventually reduce her to the same as everybody else, as any other unfortunate human.

I get where you're coming from but I don't see it that way. The wishes, and indeed the magical girls themselves are irrational/illogical elements, you're right about that. But QB never refers to these elements as "distortions"; on the other hand, he does use that word to describe their negative logical effects/results.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

because the "distortions" are illogical and unnatural in themselves, the logical and natural forces of the universe will naturally cause them to fade away.That's why I do not see that things like Kamijou being uninterested in Sayaka after his recovery, or Kyouko's father snapping when he discovered how empty his preaching was, as unnatural "distortions". They are simply logical progressions of the natural functioning of the universe. Comparatively, things like Maju and Witches can be clearly seen as unnatural by-products of the magical wish system, so they can be classified "distortions" in the same manner as Puella Magis' wishes.

Rather I think both, the logical results of a wish as well as the witches (and later maju) are logical consequences to the existence of magical girls. Think about it: if the logic of the universe is driven by entropy and therefore strives for balance, it's natural that any element that disrupts such balance (elements that contradicts the entropic logic of this universe) would logically lead to a countermeasure response. So, if a magical girl is introduced to the system, the logical consequence is for an equal opposite force to appear, hence the witches (and later the maju). So witches and maju are too logical consequences.

I think what is confusing you is the use of the word "distortion" to refer to logical elements, but this is implied in QB's speech from episode 11. Besides, whether you use that word or not doesn't really affect my argument .

[AuraTwilight]

I get where you're coming from but I don't see it that way. The wishes, and indeed the magical girls themselves are irrational/illogical elements, you're right about that. But QB never refers to these elements as "distortions"; on the other hand, he does use that word to describe their negative logical effects/results.

This is the same WB who fucked up explaining Entropy, I think we should keep in mind.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is the same WB who fucked up explaining Entropy, I think we should keep in mind.

About that, I'd say Gen probably just didn't do his research properly.

Either way, it doesn't really affects the point I was trying to make.

[Arkanis]

Don't get agitated about the wrong explanation about energy. Simply replace it with the term usable energy (or maybe better free energy). Entropy is monotonically increasing, free energy monotonically decreasing (, internal energy stays the same). So, Kyubey just used the explanation for 14 year old girls. It's the same if he said that the earth revolves around the sun which nobody would controvert but is formally incorrect as well.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by Arkanis

Don't get agitated about the wrong explanation about energy. Simply replace it with the term usable energy (or maybe better free energy). Entropy is monotonically increasing, free energy monotonically decreasing (, internal energy stays the same). So, Kyubey just used the explanation for 14 year old girls. It's the same if he said that the earth revolves around the sun which nobody would controvert but is formally incorrect as well.

You'll have to explain that to me then, how is that 'incorrect'?

[Arkanis]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

You'll have to explain that to me then, how is that 'incorrect'?

Consider the following scenario: You play with your little sister. You hold both her arms with your hands and let her circulate in the air. She's really light, so you don't have any problems at all. But nevertheless your stand position is a little leaned backwards. So it's not that she's revolving around you, but rather you both are revolving around some point between you two.

tl;dr:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass#Animations

The statement that the earth revolves around the sun is therefore just an approximation of (the by current standards of physics supposed) reality and it's inacceptable for purists or nitpicker, but nearly nobody cares about that. And that's a sound and viable attitude in everyday life. So, in my opinion, it's rather unnecessary to get upset about some minor error in kyubey's description, it's close enough to reality.

Disclaimer: I'm no physicist and every explanation given could be wrong.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by Arkanis

Consider the following scenario: You play with your little sister. You hold both her arms with your hands and let her circulate in the air. She's really light, so you don't have any problems at all. But nevertheless your stand position is a little leaned backwards. So it's not that she's revolving around you, but rather you both are revolving around some point between you two.

tl;dr:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass#Animations

The statement that the earth revolves around the sun is therefore just an approximation of (the by current standards of physics supposed) reality and it's inacceptable for purists or nitpicker, but nearly nobody cares about that. And that's a sound and viable attitude in everyday life. So, in my opinion, it's rather unnecessary to get upset about some minor error in kyubey's description, it's close enough to reality.

Disclaimer: I'm no physicist and every explanation given could be wrong.

I get it. It's basically including (or leaving out) a tiny detail that few people truly care about and that has very little effect on the grander scheme of things (assuming this detail is small enough to become negligible the bigger the thing it relates to becomes).

[Arkanis]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

I get it. It's basically including (or leaving out) a tiny detail that few people truly care about and that has very little effect on the grander scheme of things (assuming this detail is small enough to become negligible the bigger the thing it relates to becomes).

Exactly. (But that's just my opinion, it's not that the purists are wrong.)

[Chiibi]

Epic finale was epic. I wanted the show to go out with a bang and I got my wish.

I miss Madoka-chan though. ;_;

And it doesn't matter what others think-Madoka and Homura's "friendship" is SO GAY. XD I think it'd be impossible to be a huge fan of the series and not ship them together. To go through all that agony to save a "friend", no, Homura freaking loves her!
I mean, they were holding each other nekkid in space. o_O

I'm sure someone asked this a million times already...but is there an explanation how Tatsuya remembers Madoka? I don't quite understand that.

This show is without a doubt, the "Evangelion" of the 魔法少女 genre.

[Jimmy C]

Tatsuya isn't remembering Madoka. Hint, he never saw her in her MG outfit in the series. He can actually see her when she's checking on her family!

[AuraTwilight]

I think it'd be impossible to be a huge fan of the series and not ship them together.

I don't. Frankly, I see where people are coming from, but I don't get the slightest bit of a romantic vibe from them.

And what Jimmy C said. Apparently Tatsuya can see Madoka floating around as an imaginary friend. And her parents seem to vaguely remember her name. There's not really any explanation, but she's a goddess, so do we really need one?

[mols]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't. Frankly, I see where people are coming from, but I don't get the slightest bit of a romantic vibe from them.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And what Jimmy C said. Apparently Tatsuya can see Madoka floating around as an imaginary friend. And her parents seem to vaguely remember her name. There's not really any explanation, but she's a goddess, so do we really need one?

That's the brother right? when does she visit? what am I missing here?

[AuraTwilight]

Tatsuya is the little brother. And we don't really get details, but he draws a picture of Madoka in her Puella Magi form, and Madoka's mother describes how 'Madoka' is like an imaginary friend that Tatsuya plays with from time to time, and that the name sounds familiar to her. She seems confident that she's heard it before.

That's about all the information we have. For any sort of concrete explanation you'd pretty much have to resort to fanfiction or something. I like to think that it's Madoka's "foot-hold" into reality, like with Serial Experiments Lain.

[ScudFace]

One question about the ending. Is it safe to say that sometime far in the future civilization has come to an end and all thats left is for homura and those evil monks to duke it out one last time? Seems to me homura decides to end it all by going into full witch mode and in doing so destroying what little is left.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by ScudFace

One question about the ending. Is it safe to say that sometime far in the future civilization has come to an end and all thats left is for homura and those evil monks to duke it out one last time? Seems to me homura decides to end it all by going into full witch mode and in doing so destroying what little is left.

It's not a sure thing, no, whereas before Madoka made her wish, that was pretty much the inevitable end outcome of the Witch system. That said, some have interpreted that scene that way, though I can't remember if anything else official has been said on it.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by ScudFace

One question about the ending. Is it safe to say that sometime far in the future civilization has come to an end and all thats left is for homura and those evil monks to duke it out one last time? Seems to me homura decides to end it all by going into full witch mode and in doing so destroying what little is left.

The ending in the desert is a homage to the movie Blade, according to Gen. In that movie, the final scene takes place far away from the setting of the rest of the movie (the ending scene is Russia, the rest of the movie is in New York iirc).

It's basically a way of saying "the fight isn't finished/the fight must go on". Gen has stated that he was surprised by interpretations from fans that Homura was turning into a Witch or that the world had ended somehow.

The only things you should take from that ending are:

1. Homura has become incredibly strong.
2. She's about to open up a can of whoop-ass on those demons.
3. Madoka demonstrates for the third time that she can interact with the "mortal" world in at least a small measure.
4. Outside of cool factor, it is what it is. Any speculation is just that, and not considered canon.

[mols]

Originally Posted by ScudFace

One question about the ending. Is it safe to say that sometime far in the future civilization has come to an end and all thats left is for homura and those evil monks to duke it out one last time? Seems to me homura decides to end it all by going into full witch mode and in doing so destroying what little is left.

Nope, it is not safe to say that. I regard this scene as being some kind of visual representation of how Homura feels and that the world is just "fine" with magical girls and demons.
There is no indication that the world was going to end and leave Homura alive.

Edit: ^before my post somebody explained that scene.