Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 44 Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor324

also did anyone besides me get goosebumps listening to the piano music when Atra and Kruelia were talking....?

Indeed. It's good, and foreboding too.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Batknight

I don't know I feel like writting Mcgillis off as sloppy and short-sighted is kinda ignoring what we learned about him last episode. When you put his plan in context with his backstory his actions makes sense. He grew up worshipping Agnika Kaieru and read all his life about how him and Bael represent supreme and absolute power/authority within the organization. When you combine that with how Agnika Kaieru's ideals and Bael's symbolism stopped him from committing suicide, it makes sense he would believe it would be enough to convince the other lords to fall in behind him because he still views those things with the same childhood hero worship fantasy he did as a child. He expected Bael to have the same power and influence it did on him. This delusion blinded his more usual rational thought process and convinced him the established laws would do the rest.

But as Rustal points out, Gjallarhorn is more than its foundations and Agnika Kaieru. The organization has existed a lot longer than he did and is much more than him. This is something Mcgillis could never understand because of how flawed and broken of a person he is and why his plan didn't pan out the way he wanted.

I can see that too. It’s just that Macky spent about 85% of season one planning and manipulating and putting pieces into place. It's why we thought of him as being a chessmaster in the first place.
Also, he had to have a plan prior to knowing about Tekkadan, he’s been planning this and playing the long game for quite a while. We've also seen that he plans and sees things with an analytical mind. It would be more in line with everything we've seen from him, for him to have more than one plan.

But perhaps this was his one weakness area, because as you said, he clings so much to Agnika's legend.

Still, as I did point out, it does serve the narrative anyway as it allows Tekkadan into the forefront again.

Next week's looks treacherous as we have Rustal, Gaelio, Julietta, and Iok all out on the field. They may only have one gundam vs a side with 4, but it's those ships that are going to be the most dangerous.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I can see that too. It’s just that Macky spent about 85% of season one planning and manipulating and putting pieces into place. It's why we thought of him as being a chessmaster in the first place.
Also, he had to have a plan prior to knowing about Tekkadan, he’s been planning this and playing the long game for quite a while. We've also seen that he plans and sees things with an analytical mind. It would be more in line with everything we've seen from him, for him to have more than one plan.

But perhaps this was his one weakness area, because as you said, he clings so much to Agnika's legend.

Still, as I did point out, it does serve the narrative anyway as it allows Tekkadan into the forefront again.

Next week's looks treacherous as we have Rustal, Gaelio, Julietta, and Iok all out on the field. They may only have one gundam vs a side with 4, but it's those ships that are going to be the most dangerous.

Another way the story could have been written would have McGillis plan for such a contingency wrt the nonsupport of the 7 Stars, so that he'd still be outnumbered but not so much, so that Tekkadan would be the reserve wild card to smash through the Arianhod center rather than being at the center of the line so to speak. Atm the best that can be pooled together outside of the already known units at McGillis's immediate disposal (Outer Regulatory Fleet, Mars Branch, Tekkadan) are whatever McGillis may have with his Montag company or whatever remaining Turbines show up to support Tekkadan.

[Batknight]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I can see that too. It’s just that Macky spent about 85% of season one planning and manipulating and putting pieces into place. It's why we thought of him as being a chessmaster in the first place.
Also, he had to have a plan prior to knowing about Tekkadan, he’s been planning this and playing the long game for quite a while. We've also seen that he plans and sees things with an analytical mind. It would be more in line with everything we've seen from him, for him to have more than one plan.

But perhaps this was his one weakness area, because as you said, he clings so much to Agnika's legend.

Still, as I did point out, it does serve the narrative anyway as it allows Tekkadan into the forefront again.

Next week's looks treacherous as we have Rustal, Gaelio, Julietta, and Iok all out on the field. They may only have one gundam vs a side with 4, but it's those ships that are going to be the most dangerous.

I believe all that stuff about McG being a master, genius, planner and manipulator still holds true even now. But I think his plan not playing out like he wanted and not having another trick up his sleeve does a lot to humanize him. He's not invincible, he's just as capable of being led astray by irrational thoughts caused by past psychological and emotional issues as anybody else. This isn't the show just suddenly making Mcgillis stupid for a plot contrivance but part of his development as a character.

I also agree narratively it works out best this way since Tekkadan can get a lot more of the spotlight in the coming battle where they might have been overshadowed otherwise. Tekkadan has never really gone up against anything like this (if they did they always found another way of escaping the situation). They're outnumbered by 2 to 1 by mobile suits and ships, up against well trained and experienced soldiers, and led by an intelligent commander who has been doing this a lot longer than anyone on the other side. Meanwhile, Mcgillis's side is mostly made up of younger, naive troops who eat up all his Bael rhetoric. Their only advantage is Tekkadan's AV soldiers, having four Gundams and Mika and Mcgillis who are far better pilots than anyone else besides Gaelio with his pseudo-AV system. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Skye629]

Next episode better have something Im craving:

A good ol Gundam/mecha show traditional sortie

With each pilot calling out their name/mech name and launching one after the other from the ship(s)




God its been too long since we had one of those..........

[haseo0408]

About humanizing McGullis, that convesation he had with Almaria left me speechless, because at fist though she was just another piece in board to usa against the Gallajhorn loyal to Rustal but he looks genualy concern for her, to the point I belive he truy loves her, an emotion I didn´t know he still had. Maybe this is all to show he hasn´t forsaking his humanity completely.

After coming this far I have to say McGuillis is a a better main character than Orga or Mikazuki, maybe becuase his goal is not as selfish as Orag´s and he can actully do some good for the messed up world. Lastly, Orga has no right to get angry this far down the road, every Tekkadan member that is about to die is on his shoulders, his greed knows no bounds and Naze and Turbines already paid for it so it´s only fair that worst is about to come to his direct family.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

About humanizing McGullis, that convesation he had with Almaria left me speechless, because at fist though she was just another piece in board to usa against the Gallajhorn loyal to Rustal but he looks genualy concern for her, to the point I belive he truy loves her, an emotion I didn´t know he still had. Maybe this is all to show he hasn´t forsaking his humanity completely.

After coming this far I have to say McGuillis is a a better main character than Orga or Mikazuki, maybe becuase his goal is not as selfish as Orag´s and he can actully do some good for the messed up world. Lastly, Orga has no right to get angry this far down the road, every Tekkadan member that is about to die is on his shoulders, his greed knows no bounds and Naze and Turbines already paid for it so it´s only fair that worst is about to come to his direct family.

I think a vital point is just as Naze has Orga's compassion but none of his ambition, McGillis has Orga's ambitions to do something better even at the cost of the natural order and showing a lack of compassion due to the pent up rage over the years of abuse. It would have been ironic to see Naze and McGillis meet for the first time, thinking about how Orga takes their best traits.

And the way McGillis had his hand stab felt like a blood oath, a promise to Almiria that the Gjallarhorn of the future will be a better place for a girl like her. Just as Mika promises a world for Atra where they wouldn't have to sell her body to make a living or never know happiness.

[Batknight]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

About humanizing McGullis, that convesation he had with Almaria left me speechless, because at fist though she was just another piece in board to usa against the Gallajhorn loyal to Rustal but he looks genualy concern for her, to the point I belive he truy loves her, an emotion I didn´t know he still had. Maybe this is all to show he hasn´t forsaking his humanity completely.

After coming this far I have to say McGuillis is a a better main character than Orga or Mikazuki, maybe becuase his goal is not as selfish as Orag´s and he can actully do some good for the messed up world. Lastly, Orga has no right to get angry this far down the road, every Tekkadan member that is about to die is on his shoulders, his greed knows no bounds and Naze and Turbines already paid for it so it´s only fair that worst is about to come to his direct family.

Mcgillis's relationship with Almaria I find difficult to analyze. It's really hard to tell where the lies begin and if it ends with any genuine empathy. It seems like he is in some sense projecting his past self onto her. Like him, Alamria is child who is being used by adults and is taken advantage of for political power by both him and her own family. So for doing that to her, he wants to make sure to honor his promise to giving her the happiness he's never had. That's the only reason of can think of for why he's so... strangely intense about it unlike everything else. Though as Almaria says, the fact that he believes he could ever bring her any happiness after all he's done to her is absolutely crazy.

I disagree with Mcgillis in any way resembling a selfless protag. His entire motivation is an enormous power fantasy born out of serve abuse during his childhood. While the ideal behind his revolution is noble, the thing driving him is completely selfish and rotten. Orga is also certainly flawed in wanting to take the fastest and shortest route to success possible. But he does this because he wants his men to have better lives as quickly as possible where they won't live in poverty or be abused again. This is more selfless than anything McG has ever wanted. Orga punching him was well deserved. McG misled him about fighting the Arianhood fleet, then wrote off his family as 'casualties' totally had it coming.

[Skaddix]

Eh Naze paid for not having enough ambition. Jasley never liked Naze and always viewed him as main rival for getting the top spot. That clash was always going to happen. Naze just never took the threat seriously enough to act. Probably didn't think Jalsey had the balls.

Orga has every right to be mad about McGillis lacking a contingency plan.
Every Tekkadan member of note basically blank checked Orga going this far. Mika did most of the pushing. But the other hardly provided Pushback.

It does move Tekkadan back into the forefront though which is good. Orga and Mika will have to pull off another round of magic.

As for Rustal he is fine with a certain amount of corruption as long as the status quo is maintained. Gjhallahorn is the Lesser Evil so to speak and he is fine being that way. He does seemingly care about Idiok and Julietta though so he is not a total monster.

As for Gjhallahorn they might not have been nice. Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice. Plus its about relative they don't have to be good. The options were Agnika Kaieru and His Merry Band or Total Annihilation at the hands of the Mobile Armor. As long as they are taking out the Archangels. I don't think anyone would be to concerned about them being heinous human beings.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by Batknight

Mcgillis's relationship with Almaria I find difficult to analyze. It's really hard to tell where the lies begin and if it ends with any genuine empathy. It seems like he is in some sense projecting his past self onto her. Like him, Alamria is child who is being used by adults and is taken advantage of for political power by both him and her own family. So for doing that to her, he wants to make sure to honor his promise to giving her the happiness he's never had. That's the only reason of can think of for why he's so... strangely intense about it unlike everything else. Though as Almaria says, the fact that he believes he could ever bring her any happiness after all he's done to her is absolutely crazy.

I disagree with Mcgillis in any way resembling a selfless protag. His entire motivation is an enormous power fantasy born out of serve abuse during his childhood. While the ideal behind his revolution is noble, the thing driving him is completely selfish and rotten. Orga is also certainly flawed in wanting to take the fastest and shortest route to success possible. But he does this because he wants his men to have better lives as quickly as possible where they won't live in poverty or be abused again. This is more selfless than anything McG has ever wanted. Orga punching him was well deserved. McG misled him about fighting the Arianhood fleet, then wrote off his family as 'casualties' totally had it coming.

I never said anything about selfless, McGuillis sure as hell is crazy, so is Almira but that world they live in is the craziest of them all! The sad fact is that MacGuillis truly nailed it when his aproach to problem, war was the only way to change that sick world because people like Rustal care for the status que and do not question anything at all. At the long MacGuillis will do more good to the wolrd tahn Tekkadan and make no msitake there is no happy insight for thos poor kids, Orga´s ambitions might be noble but sure as hell they going to get most if not all his familyy killed, just like Naze and Bisquit.

[tdx]

About those Dainsleifs. I trust we all saw that "Preparing Dainsleif Expansion" in the PV, right?

Spoiler for pic:

And Rustal announced during the broadcast that Arianrhod will take down traitor McGillis even if it means breaking GH's laws. That is, he smoothly managed to give himself the free pass to use Iok's Dainsleif unit against McGillis. So maybe it will be Arianrhod that will open fire with Dainsleifs first, and McGillis' side along with Tekkadan will counter with their own.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I won't go that far. I still think Rustal is lower in terms of moral ground, and I would also venture in saying that the corruption that plagues Gjallarhorn is because they took what Gjallarhorn was originally supposed to be and perverted it.

To us, Rustal is lower. But to Rustal, it looks like McGillis is either on the same level or lower because they essentially cling to the same thing, that being GH's history, just different parts of it, is what my point is. I also have to agree with Anh_Minh about the hereditary system that the 7 stars created, it's basically what killed any hope for meritocracy within the higher ranks.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Macky as we know, respects power. Mika saved him and showed him tremendous power to save those he has been tasked with. And thus, Macky holds him in high regard. Orga stood up to him and his people and for the first time in a long time, has looked to be sure of himself, something that McGillis has tried to get out of him for a while.

That basically proves that GaliGali was right when talking about how McGillis can only understand things like force, violence and authority. Orga letting him feel first-hand that he's very much capable of all of the above gained him McGillis' respect... McGillis is a sad man indeed.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Kudelia entrusts Mika to Atra as she can't be there for them. She loves Mika as a man and Atra and the others as family but she is doing her part which is entrusted to her.

She's been going on family family nonstop, she applied any words of affection she had equally to Mika, Atra and even all of Tekkadan, both outloud and in her thoughts, moreover she repeated at least trice that I can remember this season alone about children like Mikazuki, which pretty blatantly implies that she doesn't see him as a man, at least after Dorts, so I honestly fail to see where you're coming from when claiming that she loves Mika romantically as a man unless it's just your shipping goggles talking.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Heck, maybe Macky even planned to not fatally injure Gaelio because he's part of Almira's happiness, and all he's doing is done in part so that Almira does not get used like he was, or am I giving him too much credit?

That would contradict his own thoughts in the aftermath of the MA incident where he was genuinely surprised at the possibility of Gaelio not being dead.

Also, about that promise, the subs screwed up a bit in that McGillis didn't promise Almiria to make her happy, he promised it to Gaelio in their last battle in Edmonton. It's the promise to Gaelio that he holds so dear. It especially makes sense in the light of the recent hot topic on Japanese boards about producer Ogawa likening McGillis and Gaelio to lovers in his recent interview.

Originally Posted by Alf

Kudelia's end position may also lead to death flag for Atra because such end would mean Kudelia standing in spotlight next season

You're a hopeless optimist talking like a third season is a done deal. If anything, the tradition of Gundam shows usually being 2 seasons and having 50 episodes, as well as the sheer scale of what's going on in the show right now point to this being the last season.

Originally Posted by Batknight

They're outnumbered by 2 to 1 by mobile suits and ships, up against well trained and experienced soldiers, and led by an intelligent commander who has been doing this a lot longer than anyone on the other side

They were outnumbered worse against the Dawn Horizon pirates (their 3 ships vs DH's 10), so I guess we can regard that experience as a practice match before the real deal that's happening now.

What I'm worried about is that during the DH battle there was only one supreme operation commander, Orga, with full authority to give orders and Isurugi obeying, so even the hastily thrown-together forces were a united front. This time it's not so. McGillis' forces are under only McGillis' command, while Tekkadan will listen only to Orga, creating a potential rift in cooperation. Moreover, if, say, Gaelio has McGillis too preoccupied for McGillis to properly see the whole battlefield and issue corresponding commands, the front might very well fall apart and suffer otherwise avoidable damage, especially seeing how McGillis' young troops don't seem to have much fighting experience or calm heads, as well as experienced leaders among them.

Originally Posted by haseo0408

After coming this far I have to say McGuillis is a a better main character than Orga or Mikazuki, maybe becuase his goal is not as selfish as Orag´s and he can actully do some good for the messed up world. Lastly, Orga has no right to get angry this far down the road, every Tekkadan member that is about to die is on his shoulders, his greed knows no bounds and Naze and Turbines already paid for it so it´s only fair that worst is about to come to his direct family.

Orga has the full right to be angry. McGillis kept him out of the loop about his plans and the set of possibilities involved (fighting Arianrhod regardless of whether Bael is in McGillis' hands or not; McGillis basically lied about it). That's not how you treat an ally. But the proverbial last drop was McGillis trying to sweet talk Orga and disrespecting Tekkadan by that quite cold and even villainous sounding "some casualties". That punch was well-deserved and McGillis himself seemed to understand that much.

And you're being unfair to Orga for reasons that asage and Skaddix stated above. Orga needs limiters and thinking supporters which he doesn't have because Tekkadan is filled with people like Shino, but even that isn't really his fault.

[Batknight]

The difference with the Horizon Dawn Corps is that in that situation the Arianhood fleet actually unwillingly came to reinforce Tekkadan which gave Mika the opening to capture their commander. Had the Arianhood fleet not arrived and forced the commander into a mobile suit Tekkadan would've eventually run out of supplies and been overrun by their vast numbers. So in that case, Orga knew Tekkadan would only be outnumbered for a limited amount of time and they only needed to hold out until extra forces arrived to survive that battle of attrition. Here unless something happens Tekkadan clearly doesn't have that luxury. They are going in knowing they will be hopelessly outgunned for the entire battle.

[Skaddix]

Its 2-1 with no backup coming. The Plus for Tekkadan is they have 4 Gundams and 4 Elite Pilots. Actually 5, they got Isurugi. Rustal Faction has 2 at this point and 3 if Rustal ever goes out to the field. He is sitting on his command ship. Kudelia not really going to do much considering travel time nothing she does on Mars is liable to have any affect unless Tekkadan and McGillis lose at the Moon and have to retreat back to Mars. I assume Orga will get command of the operations. It his forte and unlike McGillis, he wont be multitasking. Eugene can pilot the ships.

[~BC~]

So after all the talk about ending corruption in Ghallarhorn, McGillis wastes no time invoking his 'divine right' as Bael's pilot to shield himself from the 'minor' offenses of orchestrating the deaths of two prominent officers. Figures. However, I'll give him some slack for believing in the legend of Bael if Ghallarhorn really has been testing for pilots after all this time. It's possible it was always a BS formality though and he really should have taken that into account.

Then there's his face to face meeting with Orga where he just casually admits that he always expected they'd have to fight Arianrhod's fleet but hey it's ok because we have you Tekkadan (we might have to take some losses though...). Given the way he sweet talked Orga into the whole 'King of Mars' idea, he really should've known that wouldn't go over well. Guess having a shared background as space rats only counts for so much. Orga better watch it though. When he said drop all pretenses I had no doubt McGillis intends to do just that.

For all that things seem to be going Rustal's way, I fully expect him to bite it soon. Because really the only way McGillis/Tekkadan can win against a fleet that large is to take out the flagship as quickly as possible. Cut off the serpent's head. It'll give the other families something to reconsider while the Arianrhod forces are in disarray.

I really want to know what they intend to do with Iok. This episode it just felt like they used him as a soundboard for Rustal's thoughts. But they've been playing up his scores of loyal men and that he really means well that I can't help but wonder if an incredible upset isn't just around the corner. I mean hell if people genuinely think that Macky can get off scot free with all he's done who's to say they won't do that with Iok.

I won't disregard Iok being a huge liability for Rustal either. If he participates in the battle, depending on where he's positioned, McGillis could get him to make a terrible mistake in battle. Say firing a really powerful weapon with Rustal in the crossfire.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

So after all the talk about ending corruption in Ghallarhorn, McGillis wastes no time invoking his 'divine right' as Bael's pilot to shield himself from the 'minor' offenses of orchestrating the deaths of two prominent officers. Figures. However, I'll give him some slack for believing in the legend of Bael if Ghallarhorn really has been testing for pilots after all this time. It's possible it was always a BS formality though and he really should have taken that into account.

But he knows it's BS. He knows the other pilots just failed to activate Bael because they lacked the AV system.

And even if he did believe, he should still know his plan hinged on loyalty to a ghost. That's a pretty shaky basis.

[Rising Dragon]

To be fair, Gjallarhorn soldiers tend to be stupidly loyal for stupid reasons. Look at Carta and Iok's men. So it's not that shaky a basis in-universe.

[Faux Mecha]

so anyone bothered with McGillis's hand getting impaled with a knife from stopping his wife from committing suicide? that he seems too cool that he just go on with the meeting with the council members despite his injuries that may alarm said members, unless due to Post Disaster medical technology with nano-machines & shit, just closed his wounds in an instant.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Global Sword 2

so anyone bothered with McGillis's hand getting impaled with a knife from stopping his wife from committing suicide? that he seems too cool that he just go on with the meeting with the council members despite his injuries that may alarm said members, unless due to Post Disaster medical technology with nano-machines & shit, just closed his wounds in an instant.

Its really as simple as bandaging the hand and putting on your gloves to cover it (and med tech is pretty good in this age as been established since S1)



And a hand getting stabbed IS NOTHING in anime (not sure how this is bothering to you). Its like getting a tiny papercut in comparison to many other things out there

[tdx]

Originally Posted by Batknight

The difference with the Horizon Dawn Corps is that in that situation the Arianhood fleet actually unwillingly came to reinforce Tekkadan which gave Mika the opening to capture their commander. Had the Arianhood fleet not arrived and forced the commander into a mobile suit Tekkadan would've eventually run out of supplies and been overrun by their vast numbers. So in that case, Orga knew Tekkadan would only be outnumbered for a limited amount of time and they only needed to hold out until extra forces arrived to survive that battle of attrition. Here unless something happens Tekkadan clearly doesn't have that luxury. They are going in knowing they will be hopelessly outgunned for the entire battle.

I never said the situations were the same, now did I? They're similar in that Tekkadan was badly outnumbered, that experience has to count for something (as opposed to McGillis' much less experienced and prone to panic forces). There's quite a lot of differences, joint command being one of them but not the only one.

Arianrhod unwittingly helped Tekkadan with the DH pirates, yes, but at the same time they got in the way a lot, too, Julietta foiling Mika's attempts to get to Sandoval and turning it into a race of who gets to him first, their grunt suits interfering with other Tekkadan and Isurugi's pilots, etc. It was a confusing mess with uncertain sides, far from the ideal situation, too.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I assume Orga will get command of the operations. It his forte and unlike McGillis, he wont be multitasking. Eugene can pilot the ships.

But will McGillis let go of his commanding rights? Is he feeling safe enough to do that? I'm not sure. If that PV is anything to go by, I think he's still in command of his part of the troops. Also, does Orga know enough about what exactly constitutes their forces to be able to make educated calls? I'm also not sure.

Kudelia might do something via a proxy and broadcasts (the camera suspiciously lingered on the photo of her and Makanai in her office), it might influence the outcome/aftermath somehow, but it won't give Tekkadan additional ships or grunts.

Originally Posted by ~BC~

For all that things seem to be going Rustal's way, I fully expect him to bite it soon. Because really the only way McGillis/Tekkadan can win against a fleet that large is to take out the flagship as quickly as possible. Cut off the serpent's head. It'll give the other families something to reconsider while the Arianrhod forces are in disarray.

Rustal seems to be intelligent enough not to go out in the field himself, instead giving commands from the safety of his ship, so I expect that's what Dainsleifs are for - for demonstrating that his ship isn't exactly as safe as he thinks it is when faced with them, just like poor Turbines learned first-hand.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Well, for those having issues with McG’s “naïve” plan, at the very least the show itself knows how reckless and foolish it is by showing how speechless Liza Enza was in front of Orga who was asking him about the validity of the “trump card” they had. Orga decking McG this episode is pretty much spotlighting McG’s blunder and channeling the audiences’ feelings towards his oversight. So, if this was intentional from IBO scriptwriters to give McG some kind of weakness, at least we can still expect competence in the writing department going forward compared to Gundam shows who don't know that their narrative are bad (eg. Gundam Age Kio/FX-arc). I’m still thankful for it though coz things could’ve been a lot worse. They could’ve made McG suddenly got possessed by Agnika’s soul and drunk on power or shit like that and becoming an overlord, but they just made him basically commit one (big) blunder of failing to get more forces to face Arianrhod due to him relying too much on Bael-rule which is still believable given his character and how much he looked up to Agnika (also, he almost got killed three times in this season if not for Mika repeatedly saving his ass, so we knew beforehand that he’s not infallible).