[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

What Sherry said. Hypothesis:

Rokkenjima Prime: First Twilight is faked. Culprit X (It could be anyone) hijacked it and killed people.

The Games: First Twilight is faked. Yasu revises things to take the blame for the murders.

Shannon and Kanon do not behave consistently within the stories, and it's very obvious that they use meta-knowledge and such to justify their actions. they're vehicles for the author inserted into the story and thus do not need in-universe motivations or justifications for their actions.

This is all supported within the text.

And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.

To add on to this, EP6's purpose is to demonstrate that Battler understands the truth. If the Fake First Twilight thing is bullshit he made up, then this doesn't satisfy anything.

Also, why did Lambda fake the First Twilight in her game? She's not soft at all.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

They could go somewhere else. But if Yasu said "you have to stay there so that you won't risk being caught if you disobey me you are out of the running for the heir game" they would obey.

Even if they did go somewhere else, they would stay hidden from everyone else, which would give Yasu the chance to kill them separately instead of taking them all on at once.

Or maybe they just went somewhere else for real and committed the murders themselves?

On the pure motivational level, Yasu wrote those stories. She's so sweet she gives off diabates. She wouldn't want to write her family members as criminals. So she picked herself(or a fictional version based on herself).

The bet is "if George came to look for Shannon's body, he would see it wasn't there, making everyone reveal the murder game."

Hideyoshi knew about the game, as did Eva. They were killed off for real in the second twilight.

No contradictions, unless you REALLY want to claim that Yasu is okay with portraying a family member as a killer.

She really hates Gohda. Or Kanon does. She also seems to seriously hate Eva from the way she portrayed Eva as a complete bitch in her two stories. Maybe Eva faked her death and simply allowed George to motorboat her? Hideyoshi wasn't supposed to actually die, but he passed out from all the steam in the bathroom and slammed the stake into his forehead for realz?

The only one Battler gets a good look at is Hideyoshi, if I remember correctly. On the other hand, if we're going to look at things from the perspective that yasu wouldn't want to portray any members of the family as murderers, once again, we have the fact that Yasu really does seem to actively dislike some members of the family. Natsuhi for the way she is so hard on the servants and Jessica. Krauss...for being kind of a dick to the family at large. Eva, for the way she is always so hard on Shannon for trying to be with George. Hideyoshi, for pretending he's from Kansai. George for being fat. Battler for being an idiot. Jessica for being in the closet.

I could go on.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Chron

Or maybe they just went somewhere else for real and committed the murders themselves?

I won't tolerate this kind of reasoning. There is no clue for this or your Krauss culprit theory. Raising stupid possibilities is not the way to go if you want to understand the story.

She really hates Gohda. Or Kanon does.

Wrong. She says that Gohda also had a really nice side to him, he was just a bit of a jerk at times.

She also seems to seriously hate Eva from the way she portrayed Eva as a complete bitch in her two stories.

She doesn't need to have Eva to correctly portray her. So long Eva is a bitch, there is no evidence for Shannon hating her.

Maybe Eva faked her death and simply allowed George to motorboat her? Hideyoshi wasn't supposed to actually die, but he passed out from all the steam in the bathroom and slammed the stake into his forehead for realz?

Assuming accidents and improbable fakes is not the way to go. Let's give George some credit, he would notice if his mother was alive. Assuming Hideyoshi died by accident is ridiculous. There is no evidence to support that theory.

The only one Battler gets a good look at is Hideyoshi, if I remember correctly. On the other hand, if we're going to look at things from the perspective that yasu wouldn't want to portray any members of the family as murderers, once again, we have the fact that Yasu really does seem to actively dislike some members of the family. Natsuhi for the way she is so hard on the servants and Jessica. Krauss...for being kind of a dick to the family at large. Eva, for the way she is always so hard on Shannon for trying to be with George. Hideyoshi, for pretending he's from Kansai. George for being fat. Battler for being an idiot. Jessica for being in the closet.

I could go on.

Yeah you know, you are confusing "dislike certain things that person does" with "I HATE THAT PERSON'S SOUL."

She found Natsuhi be harsh on everyone, yet portrayed her sympathetically in episode 1. What then? That means she liked Natsuhi, just didn't like how she was harsh on everyone. But she understood she had to be harsh. Krauss was hardly more of a dick than the rest of the family, he merely outdicked them.

No. Merely not liking CERTAIN ASPECTS of someone doesn't mean you hate them enough for you to portray them as murderers, especially considering how saintly Yasu is portrayed as.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Chron

And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.





Ho-hum, easy enough.

Battler never confirmed anyone's death. He simply saw a bunch of mutilated corpses. Therefore, if any of them were not corpses, but simply people pretending to be dead, then that red is irrelevant. Boom.

The true culprit of the First game was actually Ushiromiya Krauss. He was dragged into the fake murder game by Yasu, and faked his death with the rest of the shed group. He was in on it, and therefore knew that the other adults would go along with it.

How did he get out of the re-locked shed? Simple. Genji simply came by later with snacks meant for the people posing as corpses since that's what Butlers do, Krauss said he needed to use the restroom or some other excuse, and Genji let him out. From there, he proceeded to commit the other twilights. Eva and Hideyoshi never did lock the chain, Krauss just went in, killed them with his manly fists, and then re-set the chain. Or didn't, Genji probably just assumed that the corpses of Eva and Hideyoshi were also part of the murder game.

Krauss at this time then proceeded to stuff Kinzo's corpse in the boiler. When Kanon came down to investigate, he saw what Krauss was doing, and then prepared to kill him in retaliation. Thinking quickly, Yasu killed the Kanon personality for the act of self-preservation and then played dead on the ground in order to avoid Krauss finishing the job.

Then Kanon got up after Nanjo pronounced him dead. The study thing happens, and then Yasu meets up with Maria and the servants. Yasu realizes that Krauss probably won't harm the cousins because he hasn't targetted them yet, and tells her to play dumb. Krauss then comes in and punches the three old people to death. Yasu confirms, and Krauss leaves a letter informing Natsuhi of the situation, or Yasu does. Either way, natsuhi barrels into the hall, confronts Yasu, and prepares to shoot her. But Yasu kills Natsuhi in self-defense, and Krauss dies off-screen with everyone else from the bomb going off.

Easy.

Battler saw half of Krauss' face. The faceless bodies were guaranteed to be dead in red.

This is pretty hardcode fanfiction stuffs. Also, Yasu doesn't have personalities.

and
# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
# Kanon did not commit suicide

[Chron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

I won't tolerate this kind of reasoning. There is no clue for this or your Krauss culprit theory. Raising stupid possibilities is not the way to go if you want to understand the story.

Ignoring the possibilities in the zealous pursuit of a single belief isn't the way to understand the story either.

Clearly the Krauss culprit is stupid. But it serves the purpose it was made for.

Wrong. She says that Gohda also had a really nice side to him, he was just a bit of a jerk at times.

Everyone has a nice side to them on Rokkenjimma, Yasu herself is sweet beyond rational belief.

And yet someone there was a murderer. Someone having redeeming qualities doesn't make them innocent.

She doesn't need to have Eva to correctly portray her. So long Eva is a bitch, there is no evidence for Shannon hating her.

The argument here isn't that Shannon hates her. But that Shannon doesn't possess an overwhelming fondness of the person, and on the basis that she likes Eva, therefore would not implicate her as a culprit.

Assuming accidents and improbable fakes is not the way to go. Let's give George some credit, he would notice if his mother was alive. Assuming Hideyoshi died by accident is ridiculous. There is no evidence to support that theory.

It's hardly a theory, it's simply a contradiction.

Yeah you know, you are confusing "dislike certain things that person does" with "I HATE THAT PERSON'S SOUL."

I never said Yasu did hate them, simply that she possessed some resentment towards them. The last three I mentioned should have made that incredibly clear.

She found Natsuhi be harsh on everyone, yet portrayed her sympathetically in episode 1. What then? That means she liked Natsuhi, just didn't like how she was harsh on everyone. But she understood she had to be harsh. Krauss was hardly more of a dick than the rest of the family, he merely outdicked them.

Ok?

No. Merely not liking CERTAIN ASPECTS of someone doesn't mean you hate them enough for you to portray them as murderers, especially considering how saintly Yasu is portrayed as.

I never said Yasu portrayed anyone as murderers. Simply that Yasu painted them in less than complimentary lights.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

Battler saw half of Krauss' face. The faceless bodies were guaranteed to be dead in red.

This is pretty hardcode fanfiction stuffs. Also, Yasu doesn't have personalities.

and
# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
# Kanon did not commit suicide

If not personalities, then "roles" or whatever purposes Shkannon serves for Yasu. As a matter of fact, Shkannon pretty much makes those reds pointless for the sake of this argument.

As far as the "identified" bit goes about seeing half of Krauss' face, doesn't that simply re-inforce my point about the worthlessness of the "unidentified corpses being guarenteed" red?

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Chron

As far as the "identified" bit goes about seeing half of Krauss' face, doesn't that simply re-inforce my point about the worthlessness of the "unidentified corpses being guarenteed" red?

So are you saying Krauss faked half of his face missing? I don't understand.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!



Do you want to know what happened?

Yasu kills the six for the first twilight. The method is not important, she shoots them or serves poisoned tea. Genji helps her.

Later, she goes to Eva and Hideyoshi and she kills them. Genji lies about the chain. She then fakes her death in the boiler room with Nanjo help. (Jessica is fooled).

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out.
They fake their death. Then Yasu kills Natsuhi.

Bomb

The end.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Hmm, about the poison tea. That isn't allowed now, is it?

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Hmm, about the poison tea. That isn't allowed now, is it?

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Chron

Ignoring the possibilities in the zealous pursuit of a single belief isn't the way to understand the story either.

Clearly the Krauss culprit is stupid. But it serves the purpose it was made for.

Everyone has a nice side to them on Rokkenjimma, Yasu herself is sweet beyond rational belief.

And yet someone there was a murderer. Someone having redeeming qualities doesn't make them innocent.


The argument here isn't that Shannon hates her. But that Shannon doesn't possess an overwhelming fondness of the person, and on the basis that she likes Eva, therefore would not implicate her as a culprit.



It's hardly a theory, it's simply a contradiction.

I never said Yasu did hate them, simply that she possessed some resentment towards them. The last three I mentioned should have made that incredibly clear.

Ok?
I never said Yasu portrayed anyone as murderers. Simply that Yasu painted them in less than complimentary lights.

Yasu is portrayed as a diabetes inducing being. Unless you can imagine that being making someone other than herself turn out to be the murderer, your reasoning stops right there.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

[AuraTwilight]

So are you saying Krauss faked half of his face missing? I don't understand.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

This only says that their identities are guaranteed. THIS DOES NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT THEY'RE DEAD.

You're putting your implicit assumptions into the Red, just like Battler was tricked into thinking the chapel door was locked.

Do you want to know what happened?

Yasu kills the six for the first twilight. The method is not important, she shoots them or serves poisoned tea. Genji helps her.

Later, she goes to Eva and Hideyoshi and she kills them. Genji lies about the chain. She then fakes her death in the boiler room with Nanjo help. (Jessica is fooled).

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out.
They fake their death. Then Yasu kills Natsuhi.

Bomb

The end.

Poisons are not allowed. The method is important. If you can't explain the Howdunnit, then it doesn't matter if you have a Whodunnit or Whydunnit. You have to prove that a human did it or you can't deny the witch. Shooting them does not work. She cannot kill them and drag the bodies because the interior of the mansion is too clean for that possibility. Moreover, the bodies don't have any hint of being damp from the rain like they would be if they were dragged. Did Yasu hold umbrellas over corpses, or did they walk there themselves using umbrellas? If the latter, why?

Why does Genji lie about the chain? Why do the last three victims fake their deaths? What purpose does it serve for them to do so?

You're not answering anything. You're just denying an idea you don't like without actually raising any valid objections, and to get around it you give a halfassed explanation with no heart behind it that actually raises more questions.

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

Maria also could've been strangled. Then again, Maria's death may be a suicide, so what's going on with her seems pretty exceptional anyway.

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

In fairness, it's not as stupid as the idea that Yasu managed to drag five big, large, strong individuals to a shed and then killed them because....??? (for some reason)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

It also helps that the unidentified corpses red only refers to the corpses that have no face at all. Krauss can be identified.

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out. They fake their death.

BTW you're saying these people fake their death, when they're missing their faces as well, and you say you don't get how the people in the shed can do it? What's up with that?

[AuraTwilight]

It's because he has no actual point or leg to stand on.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

In fairness, it's not as stupid as the idea that Yasu managed to drag five big, large, strong individuals to a shed and then killed them because....??? (for some reason)

Oh sure, it's less stupid than the alternative. But it's still stupid that Battler somehow REALLY thought Krauss was dead*. I suppose Ryuukishi tried to use the same trick from Detective Academy Q to explain it, but didn't quite do enough.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This only says that their identities are guaranteed. THIS DOES NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT THEY'RE DEAD.

You're putting your implicit assumptions into the Red, just like Battler was tricked into thinking the chapel door was locked.

There are no double bodies and half of them had their face smashed. How the fuck did they fake that? How do you fake your head MISSING?
But not only that. How did people in Ep. 2 fake their intestines missing? How did George and Gohda fake their whatever missing? How did Yasu fake a hole in her head?

Also, where did they get the stakes? You know, the one that Yasu had.

Poisons are not allowed. The method is important. If you can't explain the Howdunnit, then it doesn't matter if you have a Whodunnit or Whydunnit.
You have to prove that a human did it or you can't deny the witch. Shooting them does not work. She cannot kill them and drag the bodies because the interior of the mansion is too clean for that possibility.

Then how was Maria killed in Ep. IV? Magic?

If you can't explain the Howdunnit,

The roulette of fate.

I think it's actually better than

"I did a fake murder mystery with zero possibilities of being solved and ending well because Battler and the others are crybabies and the adults are crazy and need money and even i knew that. I also send moneys to people because"

Moreover, the bodies don't have any hint of being damp from the rain like they would be if they were dragged. Did Yasu hold umbrellas over corpses, or did they walk there themselves using umbrellas? If the latter, why?

She had help. Genji, maybe even Nanjo and Kumasawa.

Why does Genji lie about the chain?

Because Genji is overfixate with loyalty, he allowed the fantasy of a madman that raped his daughter FOR YEARS and manipulated the life of a boy/girl for her crazy rapist father.

Why do the last three victims fake their deaths? What purpose does it serve for them to do so?

They are accomplices. They can be really dead for what i care, they are going to blow up in seconds anyway.

Maria also could've been strangled. Then again, Maria's death may be a suicide, so what's going on with her seems pretty exceptional anyway.

There were no signs on her body. And we knew Shkanontrice was the last one to die. And if she suicided, what did she take?

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

Doesn't it violate with Knox 10, Which umineko follows?
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

[AuraTwilight]

There are no double bodies and half of them had their face smashed. How the fuck did they fake that? How do you fake your head MISSING?
But not only that. How did people in Ep. 2 fake their intestines missing? How did George and Gohda fake their whatever missing? How did Yasu fake a hole in her head?

Also, where did they get the stakes? You know, the one that Yasu had.

Again, no one is saying that any later Twilights are faked. Stop being a retard and get your dick out of your face. I know you're capable of reading and understanding what I have to say.

No one's entire half of a head is missing, and it's possible to fake having your face missing with makeup. It's not like Yasu can't afford Hollywood-quality professional makeup.

Then how was Maria killed in Ep. IV? Magic?

Suffocation.

The roulette of fate.

I think it's actually better than

"I did a fake murder mystery with zero possibilities of being solved and ending well because Battler and the others are crybabies and the adults are crazy and need money and even i knew that. I also send moneys to people because"

That's not a Howdunnit. Do you know what the term means?

She had help. Genji, maybe even Nanjo and Kumasawa.

And why are they helping Yasu commit mass murder?

Because Genji is overfixate with loyalty, he allowed the fantasy of a madman that raped his daughter FOR YEARS and manipulated the life of a boy/girl for her crazy rapist father.

If Genji was as you say, he'd of just let Kinzo have at Yasu. Genji did not condone Kinzo's actions, and did what he did in order to allow Kinzo an oppurtunity to redeem himself for his actions. This is not a man who would robotically be complicit in mass murder.

There were no signs on her body. And we knew Shkanontrice was the last one to die. And if she suicided, what did she take?

Suffocation doesn't always leave marks. And the use of poison isn't forbidden for suicide, since suicide is not murder.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Doesn't it violate with Knox 10, Which umineko follows?
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

Knox refers to poisons unknown to humans, like "a mysterious poison that no one ever heard of." It doesn't forbid poisons that humans DO know of.

The complete rule goes as following:

IV. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end. There may be undiscovered poisons with quite unexpected reactions on the human system, but they have not been discovered yet, and until they are they must not be utilized in fiction; it is not cricket. Nearly all the cases of Dr. Thorndyke, as recorded by Mr. Austin Freeman, have the minor medical blemish; you have to go through a long science lecture at the end of the story in order to understand how clever the mystery was.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

There are no double bodies and half of them had their face smashed. How the fuck did they fake that? How do you fake your head MISSING?

I'm sorry for being a dick, but since your not listening to me. Regarding Kumasawa, Genji, And Nanjo later Lambda gave us this red.

the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed

Therefore same way the servants faked.

But not only that. How did people in Ep. 2 fake their intestines missing?

Pig intestines.

How did George and Gohda fake their whatever missing? How did Yasu fake a hole in her head?

They didn't. That one is earth to earth. As in they're dead as they appear to be.

Also, where did they get the stakes? You know, the one that Yasu had.

The closest thing we ever get to an answer is that they're made in America.

She had help. Genji, maybe even Nanjo and Kumasawa.

They'll still be damp from dragged through the rain. Genji's and them are all elderly. They're not super-soldiers who can do tons of strenuous activities.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

There's no way she could know a story Kinzo explicitly avoids ever telling anyone, though. I mean, maybe Claire can, but Yasu can't (even though Claire is... y'know what screw it). Anything she'd know someone would have to have told her. There's always going to be a bias layer there, so we either have to accept that this truth about Kinzo can somehow be dragged out or that it's someone's opinion, which makes it equally as questionable as Kinzo's own story. Unfortunately we just don't have any metric for veracity since, as has been noted, the spectator authority never promises objective truth.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What Sherry said. Hypothesis:

Rokkenjima Prime: First Twilight is faked. Culprit X (It could be anyone) hijacked it and killed people.

The Games: First Twilight is faked. Yasu revises things to take the blame for the murders.

Well, we don't actually know if there was any faking on R-Prime, nor any murders. Especially if some variant on the shooting spree theory is the truth. Or it's all just a hilarious accident!