(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[BWTraveller]

I don't know if I'd precisely call him a "victim". But trauma is real, as is social anxiety and depression, and once you fall it's harder to get back up, and gets harder every single day.

Concerning his physique, in the LN it says that he was actually quite athletic and intelligent all the way through most of junior high. Then near the end of junior high he built his own computer for fun and got hooked on it, let his grades slip, and ended up in a delinquent school.

Also, it may be noted that originally he did take the first step himself. Up until Roxy showed up, Rudeus wasn't even willing to go as far as the yard. He stayed inside the house exclusively. It took courage for him to simply step outside. But this story's sort of about the combination, him struggling to make achievements on his own and receiving aid from others and gradually changing. Yes, currently he's still not far from what he once was. But dedicating himself to something once more without fear of failure, stepping out, recognizing that even well beyond where he had the courage to go he really had nothing to fear, are big milestones specifically because he's so far down. It's a big step for a level 1 to become a level 2, even if in terms of actual battle prowess they're still as useless as a wet noodle. He was designed to be a level 1 (or, to be fair, more like -1), so it'll take a while before he becomes anything great. But it's an interesting journey that takes place in a beautiful and fascinating world.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by bakato

Well, judging from the state of his room, his physique that looks like he hasn't gotten any physical activity in his life, and the fact he was jacking off rather than attending his parents' funeral, my best guess is he spent it being an otaku and jacking off.

Yes. That totally wipes the slate for decades of grief he caused his parents and family. It's not so much as a matter of punishment as it is his utter lack of remorse or thought for them in his new life. Then again, I guess that's not surprising for a guy who jacked off to underage porn during his parents' funeral. So I will concede it makes sense.

His dreams and flashbacks so far seem more focused on himself.

The rehab aspect of this show has us cheering for him for just stepping out of his house. I understand it was a meaningful moment for those with extreme anxiety issues, but for a guy who just got a clean start that no one in reality should expect to get it falls flat. It feels like lowering a bar.



I admit I was a fan in my younger, shameful years until one day it started to rub me the wrong way. I've come a long way since then and experiencing other literature has helped me put my itches into perspective. The core issue here is the show's attempt to reconcile it's wish fulfillment its "preaching." Or rather it's failure to do so. It's attempt to tell a story of redeeming a flawed character through its outlandish premise has caused egregious complications.

Epic lore and world-building are two things I have never associated with this series. I would love to know what parts you considered epic.



I acknowledge how much flawed character can render all sorts of advantages useless and your argument highlights the differences in our stances. You see Rudeus as a victim, a victim of his own flaws. I see him as the perpetrator of his failed life as well as the lives of others. I believe in people and their ability to take control of their lives. It is not that people are incapable, but they choose to be by not stepping up. His trauma come from an adolescent event from which he had nearly 20 years to change. During which he no doubt had other people try to help him, which he probably turned down. His failures are his responsibility. To rephrase my previous statement, it is unacceptable for him to fail this second life.

Unfortunately, this panty wearing creep is front and center in this show.



You're right. This is an opportunity rather than a reward. He doesn't seem to care about his parents or family after he reincarnated. Considering the show is all about redeeming him, wouldn't that be on the list of things to fix?



Nah, it's pretty much a given that there was some sort of shenanigans going on by how they mentioned those two kids vanished. So there's clearly some other forces at play rather than contrivance.

He has remorse though. Otherwise he wouldn't try change. Personally I don't think there is need for it to be super explicit to get that much.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by bakato

Epic lore and world-building are two things I have never associated with this series. I would love to know what parts you considered epic.

When the worldview gets bigger and bigger; characters, MC and his allies, party, family get involved in things that lead up to world problems, enemies and stuff made of legends. Sometimes, isekais that get to this epic level are brain-dead, a joke, eye-rolling or even distasteful.

At least for MT, I think this is done alright and did give me some mindgasms. I guess it could be also due to what you alluded to. The epic parts are not being obvious. Many a times, a fantasy story, isekai or not, starts talking about some historical demonloard or great evil blah blah during first episode exposition and makes everything kind of anti-climatic and predictable. MT knows how to build its scale step by step and creates a 'pull' from that.

So other than my dislike for Rudy and the nice stuff that happens to him in sometimes unbelievably convenient ways, it is enjoyable as a fantasy story for me.
Though he does get to points where he gets challenged and requires aid and allies to overcome them (iirc, the work ended so long ago...).
But it's going to take a while to get 'epic'.

[Tenzen12]

Well, I remember at least two cases where challenge overcame him despite aid and allies, so there is that...

[Twi]

Keep in mind folks, this is the anime thread. Try to not drop spoilers.

[maximilianjenus]

i give this show props on being not obvious, there is the secret of the world, with a lot of clues dropped around and a lot of people dont notice it

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I mean, we're seeing him mostly at the tail end of his life, I don't think it's a good glimpse at to how he's always been. We saw that part of what got him to that point was how bullied he was in high school. He basically just shut down and gave up on trying.

He doesn't seem proud of how he used to be or feels like he deserves this ideal lifestyle more than anyone else does. Maybe he should be reflecting more on his flaws and the people he hurt but the series doesn't seem to want to dwell on that emotional pain, rather the change and building up of a person as they move on from it.

His family was involved to some extent in that, though.

I wasn't really cheering him on so much as just acknowledging it as the next step in his character development and relationship with Roxy. The sense I get with Isekai is people don't see the bar as all that high to begin with .

Either he was a good person who turned into degenerate otaku or he was degenerate otaku who stayed more or less the same. Doesn't really paint him in a better light. It's what he chose to become that matters.

He also doesn't feel like he doesn't deserve this life. The show has frustratingly chosen not to address this and that's the issue. You can't talk about change and moving on if you don't address what you're moving on from.

My complaints exactly. For all this talk about becoming a better person, there is a reluctance to air out the dirty laundry.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I don't know if I'd precisely call him a "victim". But trauma is real, as is social anxiety and depression, and once you fall it's harder to get back up, and gets harder every single day.

Concerning his physique, in the LN it says that he was actually quite athletic and intelligent all the way through most of junior high. Then near the end of junior high he built his own computer for fun and got hooked on it, let his grades slip, and ended up in a delinquent school.

Also, it may be noted that originally he did take the first step himself. Up until Roxy showed up, Rudeus wasn't even willing to go as far as the yard. He stayed inside the house exclusively. It took courage for him to simply step outside. But this story's sort of about the combination, him struggling to make achievements on his own and receiving aid from others and gradually changing. Yes, currently he's still not far from what he once was. But dedicating himself to something once more without fear of failure, stepping out, recognizing that even well beyond where he had the courage to go he really had nothing to fear, are big milestones specifically because he's so far down. It's a big step for a level 1 to become a level 2, even if in terms of actual battle prowess they're still as useless as a wet noodle. He was designed to be a level 1 (or, to be fair, more like -1), so it'll take a while before he becomes anything great. But it's an interesting journey that takes place in a beautiful and fascinating world.

Nearly twenty years. Seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, seasons. That's a lot of time to spend wasting away and who's to say his family didn't try to help him? I believe in negative experiences that can cripple a person, but this is not where I draw the line. He had plenty of chances.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

He has remorse though. Otherwise he wouldn't try change. Personally I don't think there is need for it to be super explicit to get that much.

Regret, not remorse. He regrets wasting his life. He has yet to show any remorse for the wrongs he committed against he people in his life.

Originally Posted by larethian

When the worldview gets bigger and bigger; characters, MC and his allies, party, family get involved in things that lead up to world problems, enemies and stuff made of legends. Sometimes, isekais that get to this epic level are brain-dead, a joke, eye-rolling or even distasteful.

At least for MT, I think this is done alright and did give me some mindgasms. I guess it could be also due to what you alluded to. The epic parts are not being obvious. Many a times, a fantasy story, isekai or not, starts talking about some historical demonloard or great evil blah blah during first episode exposition and makes everything kind of anti-climatic and predictable. MT knows how to build its scale step by step and creates a 'pull' from that.

So other than my dislike for Rudy and the nice stuff that happens to him in sometimes unbelievably convenient ways, it is enjoyable as a fantasy story for me.
Though he does get to points where he gets challenged and requires aid and allies to overcome them (iirc, the work ended so long ago...).
But it's going to take a while to get 'epic'.

I guess I'll have to speed read the thing.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by bakato

Either he was a good person who turned into degenerate otaku or he was degenerate otaku who stayed more or less the same. Doesn't really paint him in a better light. It's what he chose to become that matters.

And at the end of his old life, he chose to be someone who saved three kids.

He also doesn't feel like he doesn't deserve this life. The show has frustratingly chosen not to address this and that's the issue. You can't talk about change and moving on if you don't address what you're moving on from.

I think the flashbacks to his old life and the person he became addresses that to some extent even if it doesn't dominate his internal monologue, but we see how it makes him afraid to go outside his house and into the village.

My complaints exactly. For all this talk about becoming a better person, there is a reluctance to air out the dirty laundry.

To what extent, though?

Nearly twenty years. Seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, seasons. That's a lot of time to spend wasting away and who's to say his family didn't try to help him? I believe in negative experiences that can cripple a person, but this is not where I draw the line. He had plenty of chances.

We saw his parents trying to reach out to him, but it just didn't kick in.

Regret, not remorse. He regrets wasting his life. He has yet to show any remorse for the wrongs he committed against he people in his life.

Are they so separate?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Frontier

And at the end of his old life, he chose to be someone who saved three kids.

I think the flashbacks to his old life and the person he became addresses that to some extent even if it doesn't dominate his internal monologue, but we see how it makes him afraid to go outside his house and into the village.

To what extent, though?

We saw his parents trying to reach out to him, but it just didn't kick in.

Are they so separate?

As we discussed, that wasn't a tough choice given the alternative.

Yes, the show is clearly focused on his own hangups.

To what extent it's reluctant? It has yet to address his feelings regarding the treatment of his family, which I guess isn't surprising. Mooching off his family for twenty years would mean he didn't feel all that attached to begin with.

We did? That helps my point though. He had chances, people reached out to him, but he rejected them and that's on him.

Sure they are. In this particular case, he regrets wasting his life, the choice he made to be a shut in. Did I miss his remorse for mistreating his old family?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by bakato

As we discussed, that wasn't a tough choice given the alternative.

I think for anyone, even in that situation, putting themselves out there for someone else so physically takes a lot of guts. He first started by warning the kids before he ran towards them.

Yes, the show is clearly focused on his own hangups.

Well, yeah, he's the protagonist .

To what extent it's reluctant? It has yet to address his feelings regarding the treatment of his family, which I guess isn't surprising. Mooching off his family for twenty years would mean he didn't feel all that attached to begin with.

It doesn't go in-depth with it, either because Rudy doesn't want to think about it or because the series doesn't want to dwell on it. It might come up again if we see Rudy spend more time with his new parents.

We did? That helps my point though. He had chances, people reached out to him, but he rejected them and that's on him.

I'm not denying that. He was a messed up person and basically gave up on himself. It's not something to justify, it just provides context for how he views his new life.

Sure they are. In this particular case, he regrets wasting his life, the choice he made to be a shut in. Did I miss his remorse for mistreating his old family?

I think to some extent he views what happened with a family as a consequence of the way he acted (which it was).

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by bakato

Nearly twenty years. Seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, seasons. That's a lot of time to spend wasting away and who's to say his family didn't try to help him? I believe in negative experiences that can cripple a person, but this is not where I draw the line. He had plenty of chances.

It depends how you see those twenty years. As I said before, every day spent locked away can make it all the harder to open that door. The outside world becomes scarier. Any sense of hope becomes more and more absurd. How can he go back to school after he'd hidden in his home for weeks? Even if he could have gone back then, how could he go after several months? How could he aim for college after spending almost the entirety of the time he should've been in high school locked in his room? How can he get a good job after failing to go to college and staying locked in for that many years? Every day spent at the bottom of the pit makes the walls look all the steeper and impossible to climb. I'm not trying to excuse him, he could have worked up the courage at any of those points and maybe made something work. In the manga and LN he even recognizes this before he spots the kids, and wishes he could go back even just a couple years to do things right. But while time can heal wounds, it can also make injuries fester, and muscles atrophy. I'm sure he had chances, but he didn't have the courage or confidence to take them until maybe right at the end.

And honestly, from what I've heard, this isn't really all that far-fetched. Hikikomori is a huge problem in Japan, tons of people who just lock themselves away and try to forget the world outside of their cramped room even exists.

[~Yami~]

I need to refresh my brain a bit because my memories are quite jumbled
I think Roxy left way too fast? or maybe there is really no more Roxy in future event?
The ending song though.. the 3 girls <3

They adapted Rudeus' past really well. It is enough to build sympathy toward him from viewers because we can relate to his past struggles and confidence-crisis state.

Roxy at the beginning though.. is it really happened? I don't think I've seen that in manga

[Znail]

Originally Posted by bakato

He regrets wasting his life. He has yet to show any remorse for the wrongs he committed against he people in his life.

Would you make the same demands for someone with a genetic mental defect like downs syndrome? An aquired trauma is just as real as a disability. How about someone that had a physical damage instead that made them unable to leave bed?

Japan is rather old fashioned and behind when it comes to mental issues so he was most likely never given any kind of treatment.

Either way so was he the one most hurt by himself.

[BWTraveller]

I at the least have to agree that Japan seems a little behind when it comes to mental health. Take a look around, for instance, and tell me how many stories you know in which people receive any kind of psychiatric or psychological help, whether for a mental condition or for trauma. Thing is, while plenty of people get over this sort of stuff over here, there is very frequently some involvement of therapists, doctors, maybe a church, but some individuals who make it their job to listen, consult and help the person to overcome problems. Even with help severe trauma is very difficult to overcome. Without help, it's all too easy to go into a death spiral as happened to the hero.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

I need to refresh my brain a bit because my memories are quite jumbled
I think Roxy left way too fast? or maybe there is really no more Roxy in future event?
The ending song though.. the 3 girls <3

They adapted Rudeus' past really well. It is enough to build sympathy toward him from viewers because we can relate to his past struggles and confidence-crisis state.

Roxy at the beginning though.. is it really happened? I don't think I've seen that in manga

Roxy left in chapter 3 of the manga

It was in the manga it just wasn't as clear.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I at the least have to agree that Japan seems a little behind when it comes to mental health. Take a look around, for instance, and tell me how many stories you know in which people receive any kind of psychiatric or psychological help, whether for a mental condition or for trauma. Thing is, while plenty of people get over this sort of stuff over here, there is very frequently some involvement of therapists, doctors, maybe a church, but some individuals who make it their job to listen, consult and help the person to overcome problems. Even with help severe trauma is very difficult to overcome. Without help, it's all too easy to go into a death spiral as happened to the hero.

If anything so does the anime (so far) make a bit light of his issues as what he got is essentially phobias against leaving the house and being seen by strangers. Realising that the fear is irrational is only the first step on the cure. It's like if you have any other phobia like heights, spiders,snakes, dogs or whatever. Realising that they are not as dangerous as your feelings say is just the start, then you need to expose yourself several times to your fear to actually get cured.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by bakato

Sure they are. In this particular case, he regrets wasting his life, the choice he made to be a shut in. Did I miss his remorse for mistreating his old family?

I feel that he generally regrets all of the choices he made, including acting like a piece of shit to his previous family. I don't find a compelling need for the show to specifically emphasize a remorse to how he treated them, as if we're trying to teach viewers to be grateful to their parents.

And perhaps a more cynical explanation is that he really doesn't feel particularly grateful enough to his previous family to feel any great remorse even now. Not because he's inherently a shitty person (which you subscribe to), but because his mental state was broken during the decades long downward spiral. During that period, he probably never felt, or have completely forgotten the feeling of being grateful to his parents. You can say he shouldn't have. You can also say people with mental disorders shouldn't do irrational things. This doesn't excuse him per se, nor does it excuse people with actual mental disorders doing things that hurt others. But it's an explanation. And it suggests that if he no longer has the sickness, perhaps this time he can behave in a way you would expect a decent person would.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

They adapted Rudeus' past really well. It is enough to build sympathy toward him from viewers because we can relate to his past struggles and confidence-crisis state.

We? Really? You can relate to him? Well, you can count me out. At most, I understand his issues, but not relate.

Due to how extremely OTT the bullying was portrayed to the point of making me laugh at the absurdity of it all (school front-gate naked crucifixion in the age of smartphones, really?), I find it difficult to relate to him which is probably a given when I'm not a hikki-NEET myself. But it's almost like the bullying itself comes from a fantasy world and is 2EDGY4ME .

[Tenzen12]

Unfortunately all you need is use Google to see it's not unrealistic. Though things that actually happen Japan and Korea are indeed absurd I agree on that

I didn't know until today btw.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

We? Really? You can relate to him? Well, you can count me out. At most, I understand his issues, but not relate.

Due to how extremely OTT the bullying was portrayed to the point of making me laugh at the absurdity of it all (school front-gate naked crucifixion in the age of smartphones, really?), I find it difficult to relate to him which is probably a given when I'm not a hikki-NEET myself. But it's almost like the bullying itself comes from a fantasy world and is 2EDGY4ME .

I mean it is not unrealistic.. If you watched your surrounding, you'll find people in similar situation but it is just not as extreme as hikki-NEET life. In my highschool, it is common to see parents were calling cops due to extreme bullying that their children got in school.

and in Asia, it is uncommon to accept mental sickness as real problem. If you said you have a mental problem, people will bring you to exorcist or priest.