(CR) Legend of the Galactic Heroes remake

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This episode demonstrates the problems many animes have with a realistic depiction of politics. What would happen in this situation in the real world is that one of the three guys who voted against expanding the war would leak to the press that the others are planning to throw lives away to boost their parties ratings and the resulting scandal would basically make it impossible for them to go through with their insane plan.

Have you ever heard an expression "short victorious war"? It's exactly what they were planning, and happened quite often in the world's history. Russo-Japanese war, for example (phrase originated due to this war), or NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.

[magnuskn]

I'm not saying that there haven't been wars (which have been planned to be) like this. I'm saying that with the amount of disagreement in the council about this policy, if the show were realistic there would be a leak to the press which, in the current political climate the show presents, would paralyze the government in their implementation of that war.

Let's not forget, this star nation is supposed to be a democracy with opposition parties, which implies the oppositon should be able to launch a board of enquiry into the affair if such a scandal should become public.

[AntonKutovoi]

Let me remind you, nation almost completely is pro-war. Anti-war voices, while loud, are very few in numbers. And most popular politician, while voted against invasion, still wants it to happen (and to fail) and constantly talking about how Empire needs to be destroyed. Also, low rating aren't because of the war, but because of one big loss at at Astarte and a huge corruption scandal that happened not so long ago. Not only no one is going to believe anti-war faction, but even if most people will realize that it's a ploy by politicians to raise their ratings, most people will be fine with it at this point, since this is "a noble war to liberate the slaves from the evil Empire".

[Haak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm not saying that there haven't been wars (which have been planned to be) like this. I'm saying that with the amount of disagreement in the council about this policy, if the show were realistic there would be a leak to the press which, in the current political climate the show presents, would paralyze the government in their implementation of that war.

Let's not forget, this star nation is supposed to be a democracy with opposition parties, which implies the oppositon should be able to launch a board of enquiry into the affair if such a scandal should become public.

I don't think we're giving enough to make that sort of assessment. The presumption that such a leak would gain any traction or that there is an opposition of any political clout despite a general approval rating rests (which may or may not reflect pro/anti-war sentiment) on a lot of factors that were never made clear in this episode. If we start bringing in real life factors such as leaks then it's only fair by extension to then start considering other real life factors as well, including those that the success of a leak would rely on. I don't agree that it necessarily follows that there would be a leak or that such a leak would be damaging.

Also, I don't think Japan had a leak culture until recently (and Abe got away with that one. XP)

[magnuskn]

The show pretty clearly states that the current government themselves believe that they will lose the election in 10 months if they don't start a war to shore up their numbers. That doesn't happen without an organized opposition party.

Yes, it's true that we are not given enough information about the state of the press, the state of the opposition and other factors. But stating that the low polling numbers are because of "one big loss at at Astarte" and then with the next sentence saying that people still want a "a noble war to liberate the slaves from the evil Empire" is trying to mix contradictory statements and somehow pull a cohesive argument out of that. Which it is not. If there is war fatigue because millions of soldiers died, the thing people will not want is some war for idealistic reasons. They want their sons and daughters, husbands and wives, children and parents back alive.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The show pretty clearly states that the current government themselves believe that they will lose the election in 10 months if they don't start a war to shore up their numbers. That doesn't happen without an organized opposition party.

The war has lasted centuries. During which different parties have held powers, all of them in favor of the war (not that they had much choice).

Yes, it's true that we are not given enough information about the state of the press, the state of the opposition and other factors. But stating that the low polling numbers are because of "one big loss at at Astarte" and then with the next sentence saying that people still want a "a noble war to liberate the slaves from the evil Empire" is trying to mix contradictory statements and somehow pull a cohesive argument out of that. Which it is not. If there is war fatigue because millions of soldiers died, the thing people will not want is some war for idealistic reasons. They want their sons and daughters, husbands and wives, children and parents back alive.

They're unpopular due to losing. They don't want to start a war, they want to keep the one that's already on going. And most of all, they want to buy popularity with a victory. Simply fighting the Empire is nothing - it's what every politician has done for centuries.

[AntonKutovoi]

It's not a fatigue of war, it's a dissapointment about loss. After the loss at Astarte, majority of the nation is still fanatically pro-war. And I'm not even talking about Patriot Knights, common people are for war as well. They didn't show one scene here, but in the book, an old lady came to Yang with her scared grandson and said: "Look, here's a hero. You need to be like him to fight an Empire, once you'll grow up". All Yang could answer is that there will be no war to the time when the boy grows up.

[magnuskn]

I'm sorry, but I didn't read the books and I don't take them into account for this adaptation. What you see is what you get and supplementary materials are not acceptable, IMO, to fill out holes in the narrative.

[AntonKutovoi]

It's just an example. TV series has also shown that nation is massively pro-war. Have you forgotten Trunicht speech and effect it had on the public? Or how the Allince laws are made specifically for war, like the adoption law?

Also, I think you're confusing supplementary material with source material.

[magnuskn]

Oh, I'm aware that the nation is made to war against the Galactic Empire. The problem is, that is just unrealistic storytelling. No nation can just absorb 2,5 million casualties without a major anti-war movement leading to large political turmoil.

I mean, they have been at constant war for hundreds of years? Shit, the US has been at constant war for 17 years now with much, much lower casualty numbers. And at this point people are dead tired of the constant warfare, especially with all the money wasted on it which could be of better use in their own country. Donald Trump didn't get elected because he promised more war, but because he said that he wanted to pull the military out of all those constant engagements and focus on domestic issues.

The show is a nice science-fiction anime, but as a political story it suffers from a rather simplistic view of how politics work in the real world.

Also: Source material or supplementary material, if it isn't in the adaptation, it doesn't exist for the purpose of its story.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, I'm aware that the nation is made to war against the Galactic Empire. The problem is, that is just unrealistic storytelling. No nation can just absorb 2,5 million casualties without a major anti-war movement leading to large political turmoil.

I mean, they have been at constant war for hundreds of years? Shit, the US has been at constant war for 17 years now with much, much lower casualty numbers. And at this point people are dead tired of the constant warfare, especially with all the money wasted on it which could be of better use in their own country. Donald Trump didn't get elected because he promised more war, but because he said that he wanted to pull the military out of all those constant engagements and focus on domestic issues.

The show is a nice science-fiction anime, but as a political story it suffers from a rather simplistic view of how politics work in the real world.

Also: Source material or supplementary material, if it isn't in the adaptation, it doesn't exist for the purpose of its story.

They haven't been fighting for their very existence for 17 years. Ancient conflicts had millions of deaths, from what I assume is a much smaller population base than a multi-planetary nation. We haven't always been so sensitive to casualties as we are today, and maybe we won't always be, either.

Astarte was a major defeat, and may lead to a change in government, but it didn't put into question the fact that if they want to continue to exist, free of the Empire, they need to fight. Iserlohn's capture did, somewhat, but it's not the same as the majority of the FPA suddenly changing its footing.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They haven't been fighting for their very existence for 17 years. Ancient conflicts had millions of deaths, from what I assume is a much smaller population base than a multi-planetary nation.

Yes, but not in just one day.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Astarte was a major defeat, and may lead to a change in government, but it didn't put into question the fact that if they want to continue to exist, free of the Empire, they need to fight. Iserlohn's capture did, somewhat, but it's not the same as the majority of the FPA suddenly changing its footing.

What I'm saying that the footing of the FPA is unrealistic after hundreds of years of war. Hell, the entire backstory makes no sense at all, given that they are refugees from the Empire and somehow built a nation out of that which can oppose the Empire, all the while the Empire was constantly at war with them. That's not how economics work.

All in all, it's a nice space opera, but it has plot holes which require suspension of disbelief. I think we can leave the discussion there.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yes, but not in just one day.



What I'm saying that the footing of the FPA is unrealistic after hundreds of years of war. Hell, the entire backstory makes no sense at all, given that they are refugees from the Empire and somehow built a nation out of that which can oppose the Empire, all the while the Empire was constantly at war with them. That's not how economics work.

All in all, it's a nice space opera, but it has plot holes which require suspension of disbelief. I think we can leave the discussion there.

There's been a Hundred Year War IRL. It happens.

I assume the war between Empire and FPA hasn't burned hot for the entirety of its duration.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

There's been a Hundred Year War IRL. It happens.

Not in a modern political climate. This ain't medieval times, this is the space age.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I assume the war between Empire and FPA hasn't burned hot for the entirety of its duration.

And I, from what we actually got as information on the show, assume the backstory of the setting makes little sense.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not in a modern political climate. This ain't medieval times, this is the space age.

By that token, why assume they're like us? We're closer to that Hundred Years War than to the founding of the Galactic Empire, let alone Yang's time. I'm sure their "political climate" has been forged by the war they need to fight to exist. "Modern political climate", OTOH, is predicated on very little existential threat. It's even worse if you count the Cold War, because MAD meant they needed to not fight a war, not fight the big war, to continue to exist.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

By that token, why assume they're like us?

I suppose because otherwise any kind of political commentary loses its edge.

[4th Dimension]

Well I'd agree the war for hundreds of years presumably almost from the founding of the Alliance is ridiculous. But the state of affairs right now, or opinion of the general populace towards the war probably isn't.

1. For the general populace, this is a war for SURVIVAL. They fled on rickedy deathtraps to escape from the Empire, from the start their entire ethos of who they are has been based on the idea that they MUST be free from it. Considering that the Empire seemed to have some level of upper hand so far (because they could always retreat behind Iserholn) there never was any grounds for peace given that Empire doesn't even consider them another state, but a bunch of rebels.

2. If the war has been raging for generations, probably with flareups and calmer periods as both sides rebuild their forces, the people are used to it by now. That war is an INSTITUTION by now. It's a thing that is done. It's NORMAL state of affairs that military personnel have a duty to raise kids who will follow them into service and such.

3. Astarte was a big defeat, but considering Alliance was able to score such big victories before (they were basing their tactics on that win), I'm pretty sure this particular defeat probably isn't inuque in it's death toll. In other cases Empire was probably much more significantly bludgeoned, but Alliance HAS apparently at times staged actual attempts to assault Iserlon and we know what kind of suicidal thing that was. Ultimately, despite how hard the defeat was I don't think anyone ever said this was even close to a majority of their fleet.

4. And these millions are just a statistic to a multi planet society (which kinda doesn't make demographic sense given their supposed origins) and therefore won't directly impact a significant portion of people by having one of their loved ones die in it which would be a basis for a general populace revolt.

[Kanon]

I don't remember the exact dates, but we were told in the show that the FPA went undiscovered by the Empire for a few hundred years, giving them plenty of time to build up their strength, while, in the meantime, the empire was decaying.

If they ever go into details about the FPA's creation like the OVAs did, I hope they'll have more realistic numbers though. It struck me as completely ridiculous there.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't remember the exact dates, but we were told in the show that the FPA went undiscovered by the Empire for a few hundred years, giving them plenty of time to build up their strength, while, in the meantime, the empire was decaying.

If they ever go into details about the FPA's creation like the OVAs did, I hope they'll have more realistic numbers though. It struck me as completely ridiculous there.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure they didn't, given that this is new information for me. It would make some sense since they had fled in secret and to space FAR away from the one held by the Empire.
This version covered the rise of Rudolf, introduction of Imperial calendar and remodeling of the worlds under Rudolf. How the future FPA citizens fled, and when (I think) and that they reintroduced the old calendar.
But I don't think they mentioned when the war started.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Haak

I suppose because otherwise any kind of political commentary loses its edge.

Pretty much. The point is, showing the mentality of another age is hard, which is why you just don't have very many historical movies/series which even try to emulate the mental perspective people in the past lived under. Certain concepts which we take for granted didn't even exist back then.

Which is why any modern show will most likely portray civilizations from the future and the past in a way which makes sense to us from out modern understanding.

If LotGH is trying to tell the tale from a perspective which is alien to our current understanding, they are doing a poor job of it.

Anyway, let's stop this discussion. I think we won't get to a common denominator on this topic. In general I enjoy the show, I just get a bit exasperated that it falls so easily into simplification to advance the story.