Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I just don't buy the emotional impact it would have until I see it for myself. Not to mention how much time it would take in order to make it effective. Something that is rushed, will no doubt lose emotional value.

Emotional value is subjective. After all, I am of the opinion that the movie lacked emotional value in several areas, partially due to being rushed. See: Hayate's pained scream being shorter and less intense in the movie. An objective criticism that showcases the movie's lesser overall value.

And I feel things have strongly drifted away from the focal point. My original opinion was that Fate in no way hogged the screen. People here have a knack for saying otherwise, and it really grates at my nerves. Which is why I'm going to eventually confirm the screen time for each character in the movie.

"Hogging" and "screentime" aren't the only ways to look at a character. If Chrono only showed up in 20 minutes of the movie, but was in all major scenes and delivered all the important lines and combat attacks, we'd still think he was hogging, even despite his overall lack of screentime. Count if you like, but if you asked all those whom you presume are merely talking minutes, I think you'll find that's not what they are referring to at all.

I repeat: Do you want to see a touching scene where Fate embraces her brother and learns to accept her new family? Where she helps him out of his emotional turmoil, cementing them as caring brother and sister? Or is the cost of losing a Fate school scene and a walking scene where she talks to Nanoha about school, too high of a price to pay?

You've already admitted that we can lose the eraser scene, so you know things can be removed, and we can still keep the more important Fate pieces, such as her talk with Lindy.

Look, no one wants to remove Fate totally, and we'll all admit that yes, we do see her as a main character and someone who will have focus. All we'd like, is just to shave off a tiny bit of unnecessary bits, in order to let some of the rest of the case have a good character development moment. But we get the impression from you that you'd happily have Fate shove Chrono off a cliff while shouting, "MINE! MY MOVIE!"

5 minutes, Demi. Don't be afraid to give up something small, when the possibility of what you'd get is so much larger.

Remember, after this movie, Chrono and Lindy WILL be shoved into the background. Maybe they'll pop up to handle some official DAB stuff, but their chance for development is now gone. Fate's family is done. Do you really want Erio and Caro when or if they ever pop up again, to be relegated to mere side characters, too? Is Fate herself more important to you, then her relationship with her family? They may as well be cardboard cutouts, for all the empathy you shown them.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Emotional value is subjective. After all, I am of the opinion that the movie lacked emotional value in several areas, partially due to being rushed. See: Hayate's pained scream being shorter and less intense in the movie. An objective criticism that showcases the movie's lesser overall value.

Well, I have a very different opinion to that. Which is probably why we can't see eye to eye. It's hard to put into words, but the raw emotion of the characters felt stronger. Enough to make me tear up, anyways. I don't really recall any of the more emotional scenes that were rushed. The pained scream was not one of the scenes I teared up at, however. Reinforces departure is another matter. Or Fate's dream scene, or Vita all bloodied and shouting how she cant bear to lose her master.

"Hogging" and "screentime" aren't the only ways to look at a character. If Chrono only showed up in 20 minutes of the movie, but was in all major scenes and delivered all the important lines and combat attacks, we'd still think he was hogging, even despite his overall lack of screentime. Count if you like, but if you asked all those whom you presume are merely talking minutes, I think you'll find that's not what they are referring to at all.

Well, screen time is generally the term most people here use. All the same, Fate had the dream scene and cleaving the drill. That's the extent of her glory moments.

I repeat: Do you want to see a touching scene where Fate embraces her brother and learns to accept her new family? Where she helps him out of his emotional turmoil, cementing them as caring brother and sister? Or is the cost of losing a Fate school scene and a walking scene where she talks to Nanoha about school, too high of a price to pay?

I have a hard time wrapping my head around an emotional scene between Chrono and Fate. But whatever, if you can make it so it feels like Fate found reason to escape the past and not just Chrono, then I'd be fine with it. It's actually at the cost of replacing the dream eater scene (Which I thought was very powerful.) with a different dream scene. Competing with that is my main concern. As for the other scenes, as long as you can still get the point across that Nanoha and Fate are bestest best buddies. Because I thought their dynamic in the movie was great. The more you limit their time together, the more of that element that gets lost.

But we get the impression from you that you'd happily have Fate shove Chrono off a cliff while shouting, "MINE! MY MOVIE!"

On the contrary, that would totally ruin her character.
Subjectively, it's hard for me to have too much Fate, but objectively, I really do feel she didn't have too much. "Just enough" is where I stand.

Remember, after this movie, Chrono and Lindy WILL be shoved into the background. Maybe they'll pop up to handle some official DAB stuff, but their chance for development is now gone. Fate's family is done. Do you really want Erio and Caro when or if they ever pop up again, to be relegated to mere side characters, too? Is Fate herself more important to you, then her relationship with her family? They may as well be cardboard cutouts, for all the empathy you shown them.

Now why would I be against developing Fates relationship with Caro and Erio? It's a new area that should be explored, and I loved her little discussion with Erio when Fate came to take him from that hell hole. I'm not sure I understand the rationale here.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Well, screen time is generally the term most people here use. All the same, Fate had the dream scene and cleaving the drill. That's the extent of her glory moments.

But she still has her fluff, too, which was important according to you. Her park meeting and school moments. The walking together with Nanoha that occurred a few times.

I repeat: If Chrono only had 20 minutes of screen time, yet had the sole dream eater sequence, and cleaved the drill, and fired off the final attack that stopped Reinforce, as well as tossed out a triple breaker by himself to end the monster.... would you say he was hogging?

I have a hard time wrapping my head around an emotional scene between Chrono and Fate.

Interesting, isn't it? You can't even imagine Fate having any sort of familial intimacy with the Harleowns, can you? Because it hasn't really been explored at all. A whole section of Fate's life isn't there. And somehow, as a fan of Fate, you're fine with that.

Curious, but did you feel anything during StrikerS, when Fate teased Chrono and called him brother?

But whatever, if you can make it so it feels like Fate found reason to escape the past and not just Chrono, then I'd be fine with it. It's actually at the cost of replacing the dream eater scene with a different dream scene, which I thought was very powerful. Competing with that is my main concern. As for the other scenes, as long as you can still get the point across that Nanoha and Fate are bestest best buddies. Because I thought their dynamic in the movie was great. The more you limit their time together, the more of that element that gets lost.

Based on what I left, which is about what they got in the series (minus school), it still cements them as best friends. As I said, they have tons more scenes together (such as talking with Lindy or Chrono about the case, or other people). And I did mention that Fate would still have her dream sequence, it would just be shortened. They'd make it as far as breakfast, before the idea of family would flash through her head, and she'd remember what she came in here for, and that she has to say goodbye to her old family, to move on and save her present one.

Now why would I be against developing Fates relationship with Caro and Erio? It's a new area that should be explored, and I loved her little discussion with Erio when Fate came to take him from that hell hole. I'm not sure I understand the rationale here.

Well, you don't seem to care much about her relationship with her current family, and are fine with them being underdeveloped, both as characters, and with their relationship with her. Why would Erio and Caro be any different? Like the Harleowns, they would only exist as extensions of Fate, for Fate herself. That pretty much had people grumbling in StrikerS, that Erio and Caro received little focus (Hell, even Vice got more!), and instead seemed to exist more just to help Fate.

Do you want to be here, 4 movies later, and Fate's issues still only revolve around Precia?

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But she still has her fluff, too, which was important according to you. Her park meeting and school moments. The walking together with Nanoha that occurred a few times.

I repeat: If Chrono only had 20 minutes of screen time, yet had the sole dream eater sequence, and cleaved the drill, and fired off the final attack that stopped Reinforce, as well as tossed out a triple breaker by himself to end the monster.... would you say he was hogging?

But fluff isn't glory hogging.
Nanoha had that whole Reinforce battle virtually to her self and all of the longer battles. Fate did get shafted as far as battles go, whether you want to believe it or not. Both Nanoha and Fate had fluff. Most of it was together. That's what I'm not getting. Heck, cleaving the drill was just there to make sense of Fate's final words to Nanoha during the bridge scene in movie first. And as cool as I thought it was, it was still like twenty seconds worth of focus. I guess my stance is Fate should have close to the same time as Nanoha, maybe a little less...But you think she should have a lot less? It's the only thing I'm able to pick up on from this circular debate.

Interesting, isn't it? You can't even imagine Fate having any sort of familial intimacy with the Harleowns, can you? Because it hasn't really been explored at all. A whole section of Fate's life isn't there. And somehow, as a fan of Fate, you're fine with that.

Actually it's Chrono I have a hard time picturing acting all emotional. He also feels stone cold to me. He lightens up in StrikerS, but until then...I just can't see it.

Curious, but did you feel anything during StrikerS, when Fate teased Chrono and called him brother?

I thought it was cute.

Based on what I left, which is about what they got in the series (minus school), it still cements them as best friends. As I said, they have tons more scenes together (such as talking with Lindy or Chrono about the case, or other people). And I did mention that Fate would still have her dream sequence, it would just be shortened. They'd make it as far as breakfast, before the idea of family would flash through her head, and she'd remember what she came in here for, and that she has to say goodbye to her old family, to move on and save her present one.

This is just one of those things that I'd have to see to believe. I loved how it was in the movie, if your version would have an equal impact, I couldn't say. I mean putting it down on paper is one thing, but animating it is another. There are a whole lot of issues you could come across.

Well, you don't seem to care much about her relationship with her current family, and are fine with them being underdeveloped, both as characters, and with their relationship with her. Why would Erio and Caro be any different? Like the Harleowns, they would only exist as extensions of Fate, for Fate herself. That pretty much had people grumbling in StrikerS, that Erio and Caro received little focus (Hell, even Vice got more!), and instead seemed to exist more just to help Fate.

Do you want to be here, 4 movies later, and Fate's issues still only revolve around Precia?

I just feel that Fate really needed that dream scene with Precia. It completed her character so that she actually could move on. It's probably my favorite scene of any season, and it is the scene where Fate had the most impact on me. I'm obviously not going to willingly give it up easily. And to me, Nanoha is the largest part of Fate's life in A's. She almost feels completely dependent on her. Similarly to how she was with Precia in the first season. This is why I think their dynamic comes before even Lindy and Chrono. StrikerS is a different matter altogether. Unlike A's, I don't have any particular scenes I'm completely against cutting. Fate seems more dependent on herself by StrikerS so it's easier for me to accept expanding her to new horizons.

[Rising Dragon]

"Completed her character", pfft. She still has the same issues in StrikerS, and even admits she'll always have that same bloody issue. So no, the dream didn't do a damn thing in the long term. It SHOULD have, but we saw in StrikerS it's not the case, and I'll be bloody shocked if it's not recounted again in Reflection.

EDIT: I agree that the scene was needed, but only in A's--it's diluted a bit in the movie due to its resolution having already been started in the previous movie's ending, and diluted further for the reason above, in that it doesn't really put an end to the issue due to its continued presence in future installments.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

"Completed her character", pfft. She still has the same issues in StrikerS, and even admits she'll always have that same bloody issue. So no, the dream didn't do a damn thing in the long term. It SHOULD have, but we saw in StrikerS it's not the case, and I'll be bloody shocked if it's not recounted again in Reflection.

It did pop up in that end of StrikerS, but for the most part, her personality as a whole in that season reflects her being over it besides the most stressful of the situations, getting your ass kicked because your power is being drained and not being able to save your trump card tends to do that. But it's not just simply "I'll never do it again" and then, "Oops" the next moment level of badness as seen through many shows with poor development.

As for that quote, it does establish that she'll probably never be as battle hardy, but that's just how she is.

Though there's no doubt the whole link to Fate was contrived in StrikerS, but alas.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Curious, but did you feel anything during StrikerS, when Fate teased Chrono and called him brother?

speaking of which, what episode was this from

It was cute, I want to go watch it again

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

"Completed her character", pfft. She still has the same issues in StrikerS, and even admits she'll always have that same bloody issue. So no, the dream didn't do a damn thing in the long term. It SHOULD have, but we saw in StrikerS it's not the case, and I'll be bloody shocked if it's not recounted again in Reflection.

Yeah well thanks for bringing up one of the numerous issues I have with StrikerS. Even so, no one fully gets over their monsters in the closet. StrikerS still showed that she's far more emotionally capable and dependent then what she was in A's, and especially the first season. It was a slow growth that capped at the end of the dream scene.

EDIT: I agree that the scene was needed, but only in A's--it's diluted a bit in the movie due to its resolution having already been started in the previous movie's ending, and diluted further for the reason above, in that it doesn't really put an end to the issue due to its continued presence in future installments.

I don't think the movie ever explored Fate's current selfs issues. It went into more detail with Precia, and some background stuff, but not the Fate we saw in the A's movie.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So what? Nanoha isn't Haruhi. What is wrong with wanting the main character, the one with the name in the title, to get the most development? That seems to be the arguement you keep using for Fate: she's a main character, and thus deserves more development. I'm merely reusing your argument for Nanoha... and then you suddenly have a problem with it!



Yes, I am. Dead serious. Nanoha has already given up her early SLB, and then also partially already given up her battle with Reinforce (sharing it with Fate now). I'd actually give more time to having Chrono fight it (along with Chrono, and possibly Fate). Read below to where I'll get more specific.



Heh, funny you should ask this, because I was already in the process of getting time stamps to list what I'd cut. But it also depends on what needs to be added to properly address them. Let me give what I'd cut, as things not vital to the plot:

0:17 to 0:52 Rein's initial narration - 40 seconds
6:20 to 7:00 Nanoha and Fate meeting - 40 seconds

I'm tempted to stop reading here.

My first thought was...seriously? Probably the most emotional and emotionally satisfying NanoFate scene in the entire movie?

The scene where Nanoha reunites with Fate is an absolutely key scene for NanoFate fans. To take away Fate's "We're Friends" rescue and to take this scene away as well - Frankly, that strikes me as downright cruel and heartless to NanoFate fans.

And what truly puzzles me is this - Why target this and not some of the lead-up that came before it? 4:28 to 6:20 is all lead-up to this one moment. Most of this lead-up turns into an absolutely horrible tease without the emotional payoff moment that you would axe out. 5:43 to 6:10 is just flashbacks and Nanoha running. There's almost thirty seconds right there, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to trim 10 to 15 seconds from the other scenes at Nanoha's home.

You think Nanoha and/or NanoFate fans would miss this more than they would the actual reunion scene between Nanoha and Fate?

Kaijo, I have to be frank - It's like you're either intentionally trying to destroy NanoFate, and are using "The plot, the plot! Everything for the plot!" as a pretext for doing so. Or you just don't get the emotional side of this movie at all (at least from the perspective of a NanoFate fan).

I'm going to see which of the two it is with this question - Are you willing to keep the NanoFate reunion scene if we take away the flashback/Nanoha running bit and 10 to 15 seconds more of the lead-up that lead to it? Better to have short lead-up and an actual and wonderful payoff than careful and smooth lead-up that goes absolutely nowhere...

7:45 to 8:21 Fate joining Nanoha's class - 36 seconds

Let's look at the 44 seconds that came before it. First, a brief and throwaway bit focusing on a DAB ship out in space, and Chrono and his girlfriend talking about Nanoha and Fate's reunion. You'd leave this in, but take out the actual reunion. I have to say, if your intention is to destroy NanoFate, I'm genuinely impressed at the pure evil genius of leaving this bit in given that you've just removed the NanoFate reunion itself. Talk about heart-wrenching tease! We have 2 minutes of lead-up to the reunion, and Chrono/his girlfriend talk about the reunion, but we don't show the actual reunion.

Somewhere I imagine a colorful theatrical villain, who also happens to be a Nanoha/Yuuno shipper, laughing maniacally.

After this Chrono/girlfriend bit (that doesn't tie in to any aspect of the plot of this movie except, ironically, the Nanoha/Fate reunion) we have a short Lindy/Alph moving scene. Because seeing Nanoha and Fate's reunion is obviously less important than watching two random guys move around mattresses while Lindy and Alph exchange a couple smiles/blushes (seriously, there's no dialogue worth mentioning here at all).

Care to tell me why these 44 seconds are more important than the 40 seconds of Nanoha/Fate reunion or the 36 seconds of Fate joining Nanoha's class? You can't play your favorite card - the plot card - here, Kaijo. None of these 44 seconds has anything to do with The Book of Darkness.

So instead of cutting out Fate joining Nanoha's class, why not cut out the 44 seconds that came before it? It'll even get you 8 more seconds that way!

Moving on...

11:28 to 13:23 Nanoha and Fate walking and talking - 113 seconds

I continue to be impressed with your attempt to destroy NanoFate (if that is indeed what it is). The two best NanoFate bits in the entire movie are now gone thanks to you. But teasing remains. Such pure, evil genius!

And here, you're taking away some of the precious little screentime that Suzuka and Arisa have.

Has it occurred to you that this might actually hurt the plot? I'm pretty sure that with your edits, Suzuka's first scene in the movie will be her befriending Hayate. Given how minor a character Suzuka is, a lot of people aren't going to remember the Nanoha/Suzuka connection without Suzuka showing up in the movie before Suzuka and Hayate's befriending scene. The significance of Suzuka befriending Hayate may well be lost for viewers who are caught up in the action of the movie, and have temporarily forgotten just who this purple-haired girl is.

All of that being said, I'll admit this bit might be negotiable. Certainly some of it is. But I do see issues in removing it entirely.

13:24 to 13:40 Nanoha talking to Yuuno in the library - 16 seconds
29:58 to 30:16 Nanoha and Fate stick training - 18 seconds
32:16 to 32:37 Fate gives someone an eraser in school - 21 seconds

All nice touches, but if time needs to be saved for other purposes, these scenes are probably easier to axe than some, I guess.

38:23 to 42:00 Transformation sequences - 217 seconds

I thought you might cut this down. Because even I'd admit that they are a bit more elaborate than they need to be. But I didn't think you'd remove them entirely. A magical girl movie without any magical girl transformation scene for either of the two main protagonists... wow. And Nanoha is now guaranteed to get one-upped by Madoka Magica in an area that, like it or not, is important to many magical girl genre fans.

And some people wonder why I used the term "killjoy".

I'm fine with the this scene being cut down on. Maybe even cut in half. But to remove it entirely... No.

56:27 to 56:54 Hayate, Signum, Shamal talking about knight armor - 27 seconds

It's at this point that I realize that you expect Nanoha and Fate to sacrifice a helluva lot more than you do the Wolkenritter. All those Wolkenritter fluff scenes go entirely untouched (and like it or not, many of them are cute fluff scenes), but NanoFate are expected to lose arguably its two best scenes in the entire movie.

But at least you're willing to cut out this unneeded expository bit. Yes, I agree with you here.

2:16:52 to 2:17:46 Lindy and Leti talking (might cut Leti entirely) - 54 seconds

I don't particularly care. But at this point, I seriously wonder "What's the real point of this all?".

Kaijo, this scene touches directly on Lindy coming to terms with the death of her husband. It's actually part of the reason why I felt you were understating the degree of focus Lindy/Chrono get in this movie.

Isn't the whole point of this slice-and-dice exercise to get more time to devote to Lindy/Chrono focus as it pertains to how The Book of Darkness took their husband/father away?

What exactly are you trying to save up these minutes for? A really big, long, elaborate gravesite scene for Chrono/Lindy?

2:21:09 to 2:21:40 Nanoha and Fate walking - 31 seconds
2:24:43 to 2:25:09 Scenes of Hayate talking with Ishida - 26 seconds
2:25:10 to 2:25:40 Nanoha showing RH to Arisa and Suzuka - 30 seconds

Sure, fine. I suggested the latter two myself, after all.

And you'll note I still left Yuuno out of this. Despite him also being a favorite character of mine, I recognize that he doesn't need a scene here. This is what I meant about sacrifice for the sake of the plot.

There is something that I want to say here.

Plot is important. But is it more important than emotionally engaging the audience? Because many of the scenes that I found the most emotionally engaging, and probably about half of the most emotionally satisfying moments in the entire movie for me, are moments that you have slated to axe. And I'd say that most Nanoha and Fate fans would agree with me on that. And that's most Nanoha fans in general, of course.

I think that plot is important, but when you prioritize it this much over emotional engagement, I think there's a good chance you end up with a final product that feels very cold. Something that feels a bit heartless and soulless.

And I think that the net effect of your changes would be to make Nanoha and Fate seem rather shallow relative to Hayate and the Wolkenritter (who aren't asked to sacrifice a single second of their 'fluff' scenes together). I think this could skew perception of the two competing sides in a way that's very unflattering to Nanoha and Fate.


And when looking over what I've wrote in this post, and the emotional cost of your changes, I can't help but strongly feel "It isn't worth it".

I really do think it just isn't worth it. Not simply for a bit more Chrono/Lindy focus and plot focus.

In my view, the plot is mildly improved while the emotional engagement aspect of the film is halved (at best) or gutted, at worst.

So in the end, I disagree with you, Kaijo. And I think that my reasons for disagreeing with you are much more legitimate than how you have framed them.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Yeah well thanks for bringing up one of the numerous issues I have with StrikerS. Even so, no one fully gets over their monsters in the closet.

Right, and this is actually one of the reasons I enjoyed StrikerS so much - the characterization felt more nuanced, without the occasional rigid, artificial character moments that sprinkled the first two series. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when healing from emotional damage in anime is completely linear, where once a character has a moment of coming to peace with their past and their situation, that's it - the issue can never be allowed to hurt them again to any degree, ever. (On the same note, it's also irritating sometimes whenever anime fans complain about character development being undermined by characters having even brief moments of regression, as though healing and maturing is a 100% straight line.)

Of course, there might be a detail or two of these scenes that I'm forgetting. If Fate comes across as being less at peace with her past and her relationship with her mother in StrikerS than she was in A's, that would be kind of a screwy regression. Emotional trauma should generally be more healed up when you're a decade removed from said trauma rather than just six months. I don't remember the message of the dream lotus scene in A's, though, as being "Fate has completely moved on and will never feel sadness over her past again." It was a difficult decision that required a lot of strength on her part and contributed to the healing process, but I don't remember any implications that her issues were completely put to rest. And considering how deeply traumatic Fate's childhood was, it would feel very unrealistic and artificial to me for there to be no long-lasting effects. I think StrikerS struck a nice balance between conveying the damage caused by her middle childhood, and presenting her as a stronger, experienced, more mature woman.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

*insert awesome post he wrote while I was typing this up*

<3

[Archon_Wing]

As a side note, if you're annoyed Fate gets too much screentime, please do not get into To Love Ru. There's a certain minor character that got blown out of proportion to take central stage and even stick herself into the title itself. Pretty much every character there relates directly to her. If you really want to get into screentime eating, it's most definitely there.

And she'll look extremely familiar.

[CrowKenobi]

And with that, the current circular discussion ends and we return to trying to discuss the movie without endlessly complaining about how certain aspects of the adaptation fell (way) short of what it was adapting.

[Dr. Casey]

It might be repetitive, but it's a legitimate and thoughtful conversation. I don't see any reason why it should be censored.

Well, hopefully Triple and Kaijo will continue duking it out via Visitor Message, at least.

[krisslanza]

I want to comment on this bit here:

32:16 to 32:37 Fate gives someone an eraser in school - 21 seconds

That wasn't the purpose of that scene. It was to show that, on their little... not sure what you'd call them, but little displays, I guess? Showed the word "Simulation" I believe. The purpose of the scene was to show Nanoha and Fate were running mentally simulated mock battles in the middle of class.

This was something only shown originally in the manga, and 1st I believe, that really drives home the point that Nanoha (and now in this case Fate) are extremely serious about training to the point of doing it even in the middle of class.

It's probably not that vital of a scene still anyway, but I just want to point out the point of it was not about passing an eraser to someone

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

It might be repetitive, but it's a legitimate and thoughtful conversation. I don't see any reason why it should be censored.

Point taken, thus I have created the Nanoha A's Movie and TV Comparison Thread where this discussion can move to.

[Nanya01]

I think the thing about this movie is that it's very much a Love It or Hate It kind of movie.

yes, this seems to be the only corner of the internet that has Nanoha fans that hate it, but, as Keroko has pointed out in this thread...

Fans who didn't like it won't speak up because they'll get flamed, trolled and outright banned if they do. This is the only forum that allows for people to be critical of Fate without being banned for it.

The only things that are universally liked by everyone is the visuals, the fight scene against the core of the book of darkness, Reinforce showing up earlier and her device NachtWal. The only thing that we all agree on that was done badly was the first action sequence, though we disagree on the why to that.

Other than that, you pretty much either loved the movie or hated it.

If you loved the movie, as Demi., Triple_R and others have pointed out, time and time again, the friendship bonding between Nanoha and Fate was nice, Fate having more screen time was also nice and the visuals were outstanding.

However, if you didn't like the movie, you found that Yuuno basically being written out, Chrono and Lindy not getting any closure, the bland action sequences, the bland music, the Wolkenritter having to grab both the Conflict AND Idiot Balls to make the plot work to be extremely horrible, as I have commented on for nearly 40 pages in the movie thread.

The movie could have been a lot better than it was, the problem is, we're now disagreeing on what can be done to fix the movie's problems. Some of you (those who love the movie) don't see where the problems are and some of us (those who hated the movie) probably see too many problems that may or may not be there.

The problem with resolving this comes down to bias, as some will use their bias too strongly to say that you can't change certain things because it would make the movie bad for them while others say that the movie was already bad for them, why not change it to make it better for more people over-all?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

The problem with resolving this comes down to bias, as some will use their bias too strongly to say that you can't change certain things because it would make the movie bad for them while others say that the movie was already bad for them, why not change it to make it better for more people over-all?

This line demonstrates my biggest problem with Kaijo, yourself, and some others that argue for major changes to the movie.

You are acting like the only people biased in this are those who disagree with you. You don't see how crudely self-serving and condescending this is?


Besides, if your answer to getting in more Chrono/Lindy time is...

1) Entirely cut out the two best NanoFate scenes in the entire movie (while leaving in other scenes that are not particularly plot relevant, but are much less loved than these NanoFate scenes are)

2) Entirely cut out the Nanoha and Fate transformation scenes.

3) Not touch a single second of Hayate/Wolkenritter 'fluff'

Then that hardly strikes me as unbiased.


Finally, I greatly dispute that the suggested changes on this thread would make the movie better for more people over-all. Kaijo's suggest scene removals would make it significantly (if not substantially) worse for most Nanoha and Fate, and all NanoFate, fans. And I strongly suspect that's the majority of viewers for this movie. The vast majority of the viewers like one or more of the following: Nanoha, Fate, NanoFate (as a pairing).

[Demi.]

It's sort of true, a good editor could probably get in that Lindy/Chrono scene you all so dream of having without even touching an inch of NanoFate screen time. But the preconceived notion that NanoFate is mere "pointless fluff" instantly leads to those scenes being targeted...Despite them being far from an over-abundance in the first place.

...And say what you will, but they're important to fully delve into the NanoFate dynamic. If I'm not left thinking of what great friends they are or how dependent they are on each other by the end, then something went terribly wrong.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Demi.

It's sort of true, a good editor could probably get in that Lindy/Chrono scene you all so dream of having without even touching an inch of NanoFate screen time. But the preconceived notion that NanoFate is mere "pointless fluff" instantly leads to those scenes being targeted...Despite them being far from an over-abundance in the first place.

...And say what you will, but they're important to fully delve into the NanoFate dynamic. If I'm not left thinking of what great friends they are or how dependent they are on each other by the end, then something went terribly wrong.

Very well-said and I totally agree.

Before me, I don't think that anybody even suggested that two guys moving mattresses while Lindy and Alph do/say nothing of import might be a better place to start the cutting then widely beloved NanoFate scenes.

This alone makes me suspicious that what is truly motivating some people is not some high-minded concern for the plot, but personal issues with NanoFate. In which case, that's hardly a legitimate reason for editing a widely popular and very commercially successful movie.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Great movie.
Like the movie 1st, a good improvement over the TV series.