2012-04-22, 08:47 | Link #28541 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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I have to agree, I read the games after all arcs were out, but it just made solving the mystery more fun as I had less time to wait to see if I was correct. For me someof the best moments were seeing the confirmation of Shkannon theory (since at least game five I am pretty sure I'd been thinking they were the same person, and certainly before game six was through) and having Will confirm support my solution of the linked closed murders (or even better my confession). I do not think reading it later ruined it, maybe I didn't wrack my brains as long as others, but as long as you didn't cheat the answers or read all the mysteries straight and gave it some thought in your downtime it was still good. I would say the only aspect us latecomers miss is the fun of arguing over ways to solve the closed room mysteries before the answers were known, which would definitely have been great. Maybe in his next work if he throws in a mystery or two.
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2012-04-22, 10:32 | Link #28542 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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It seems pretty obvious that some people learned to think from the author's pov, and ends up having no problems with Shkanontrice theory.
Nothing really to say about it, but I'm glad to see it exists. And I'm also glad to see that people who thinks the narrative is better then the logic puzzle exists. Quote:
If "not a fiction" then "not solvable". You end up as a crazy conspiracy theorist for playing around with the idea of the hidden truth of Rokkenjima. If "solvable" then "fiction" and thus certainly not prime. How about saying Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are a single entity in arc 1? You really don't like mysteries do you? |
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2012-04-22, 12:37 | Link #28543 | |||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I would like to chime in again on this one.
Aside from the motive, the only other problem I have with the Shkanontrice theory is that while it works taking a multitude of reds that were shot out and is beautifully foreshadowed in normal text, it also trips itself up in semantics and subjectivity. Here are some things that hint at "Something's odd!": Quote:
Okay, let's say at the moment that Beatrice killed him. Beatrice is a witch, not a human, and she resides in his body... Quote:
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However, if there is no one hiding in the six rooms, and these six are dead... then who is in Kanon's body? Does this mean that Beatrice can 'hide' in Kanon's body and avoid getting called out? Or is she Hiding in Plain Sight (with a +20 modifier at that)? Quote:
Really, what is she? Should she be treated as a human? If so, then the other reds are erroneus. Is she a witch? In that case, this red doesn't work. To sum up my viewpoint, Shkanontrice would work perfectly as a who- and howdunnit, were there no or less red text. |
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2012-04-22, 13:18 | Link #28544 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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That means it is a THING, a WEAPON, just like the Winchesters. But since no human besides Battler was alive, and he very likely did not accidently trigger any strange things that may lead to an accident, it must be an indirect weapon, like a trap. But since in every game it is triggered at 24:00 and it kills Battler every time, regardless of what his location is, we can conclude: IT'S A DELAYED-ACTION BOMB! |
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2012-04-22, 14:10 | Link #28545 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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2012-04-22, 14:28 | Link #28546 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Although the 5th debunked that and 7th confirmed that it was a bomb. However one thing I am not sure about. Is why Beatrice seemed so torn up at the question of "who aaaam I". Will's answer was that she is the promised death god that pulls down the curtain on witch's games. The explosives have connection to Beatrice as it creates the cat box which could allow Beatrice to exist. However I am not really sure if that is it. |
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2012-04-22, 14:58 | Link #28547 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Of course, it's always the literary worth of an author's work that determines its value, but when labeling their work as mystery and go to all the trouble of making the detective point out many trivial-seeming details and explain a series of clues that led him to whichever conclusion, they ought to have presented those for the reader in advance so as to make the novel anything more than a pretentious pile of baloney. Quote:
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2012-04-22, 15:35 | Link #28548 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Indeed that Umineko was solvable so you should put effort into thinking although Battler/Will does a bulk of the work for the reader. Although it rubs me the wrong me the wrong way about how Will said it. Quote:
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That it refers to explosives having a connection with Beatrice while making sense for Will's explanation but it does not feel right for that scene. |
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2012-04-22, 16:07 | Link #28549 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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Either way, your statement is offensive and insulting. UsagiTenpura hates Eddie Murphy, therefore they hate black people. See the problem with those sorts of sweeping generalizations? Quote:
[QUOTE] However, if there is no one hiding in the six rooms, and these six are dead... then who is in Kanon's body? Does this mean that Beatrice can 'hide' in Kanon's body and avoid getting called out? Or is she Hiding in Plain Sight (with a +20 modifier at that)? See that Magenta text, Xenon? That's Meta-World for "Objectively Awesome." Quote:
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2012-04-22, 16:07 | Link #28550 | |||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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2012-04-22, 16:36 | Link #28551 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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LOL, problem solved! And we had it next to us all the time!
"The Heart of Beatrice" is the Bomb! I mean Beatrice said "I will expose my heart now", then the "ghost Beatrice" otherwise known as Bomb!Beatrice appeared... and that ghost, or at least what it represents, IS "The Heart". It was so obivious that i never considered it... so maybe to "understand everything", we must research more about the bomb... |
2012-04-22, 16:41 | Link #28552 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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It might be fun to do a forgery where Sakutarou possesses Maria's corpse to avenge her death in the fantasy plot. "Illusions to illusions. The promised reaper lowers the curtain on the tale, regardless of the witch's will."
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2012-04-22, 17:38 | Link #28553 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-04-23, 02:03 | Link #28554 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Maybe to you and me, but not to Beatrice. (And that's precisely the point)I wouldn't go as far as to say I have no problems with it. In terms of the love story it's cute, and in terms of being commentary on differing world views it's kind of interesting. But strictly in terms of a logic game it's crap. It's really just a matter of our expectations.
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2012-04-23, 06:49 | Link #28556 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Again, though, the story itself seems to go out of it's way to make a point that she did a fairly crappy job of that, but she still wanted him to figure it out ANYWAYS. I'd say her request IS presented as rather unreasonable, thus why it's a "miracle" she was hoping for and all that.
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2012-04-23, 07:10 | Link #28557 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Yeah, Beatrice's heart isn't the bomb itself, but it's one of the core elements of her motive. I mean, her crazy suicidal bet wouldn't be possible without the existence of the bomb, it's not like the bomb is yet another personality or anything. That ghost Beatrice is just the illusion that the witch side is allowed to display as an explanation of the presented result.
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2012-04-23, 07:55 | Link #28558 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Also an off-topic. You know how some people state the crazy stuff at the end of Game 2 is all because Battler is drunk? I always had another theory. As we know there are two types of magic, that which is observed (a trick) and that which is not (flat out lie). I am pretty sure most of that magic stuff happened after midnight, so maybe, there just weren't any observers by then? |
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2012-04-23, 08:33 | Link #28559 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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2012-04-23, 08:51 | Link #28560 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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You're trying to cast my examples as absurd - which of course they were intended to be - to make it look like the dialed-back example that actually happened is reasonable. That isn't how it works. The examples illustrate the semantic absurdity of defining something that doesn't follow normal rules. The problem is not merely in this definitional trickery, but also in equivocating them with the standard definition without trying to distinguish the two in any way. You understand that personality death is itself the hint that permits everyone to not be dead, right? I don't actually need any evidence that Hideyoshi has a magic form or an alternate personality (although, it's worth noting, there are multiple characters who could be spun to have one); that death != death is the "hint." To suggest that "the entire rest of my story [explains] the philosophy behind it" is overly generous at best. If the "philosophy" is "by living in denial and refusing to be clear about things, I can make anything true," I guess you're right. But that's just my very point. Nevermind that, and this is kind of an important thing, many of these so-called rule revelations do not come up in a format that - as far as we know - Battler was able to observe. I mean, a hell of a lot of information comes from places like the ep2 prologue flashback and Ange's review of Maria's diary in Alliance. Are we to just assume Battler saw these things (and he has to see all of them)? I have absolutely no way of knowing, as far as my recollection goes, whether he did or not. If he didn't, he doesn't have that information. So what if we did? Because it helps us figure out Shkanon? People had figured that shit out by ep2. It was a theory everyone was aware of, and was only doubted because he cheated to intentionally stir up the issue. Like others have said, without the red it's actually easier for us and particularly for Battler. Who is the one who was meant to solve things. That proves the red was intentionally and maliciously deceptive on an authorial level. Quote:
"Oh, people have problems with the author cheating? They just don't get it." I understand what Ryukishi wanted to do. It was a stupid, amateurish move by an amateurish writer who thought he could pull it off, then panicked and disguised it when his big trick was immediately spotted by seasoned readers. The fact that he's claimed that he is an amateur doesn't excuse him.I believe the idea here is that Shkanon had moved out of the rooms by the time Meta-Beatrice had spoken that red and thus didn't count as being in the rooms at all. Sometime between the discovery of the bodies and the proclamation of deaths, Beatrice had taken over the body and left the room, and wasn't "hiding" in it. The room proclamation essentially doesn't account for the possibility that any of the bodies are actually still in them, only the bodies of the "victims." I don't like it, but that may have been Ryukishi's intention with that one. Of course, one can apply the very same rule to the others, since they're not provably dead. Only "victims" are in the rooms. Nevermind that Shannon and Kanon are "victims," so the red should apply to them and force them to be in the rooms. I'm pretty sure Ryukishi will with a straight face tell you that Shannon/Kanon were murdered but weren't victims... or that "not existing" supersedes "existing as a victim." Or that Beatrice pretending to be Kanon's corpse is somehow different from hiding, because words mean whatever Ryukishi wants them to mean as long as they're convenient for him.
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