AnimeSuki Forums

Sumeragi · 2012-07-17, 04:09

I'm getting sick of all the copyright bashing. The situation here is that the CD was bundled with a magazine, thus making it part of profit even if the magazine would have fetched the same price without the program. If the program was given away free, then the JVSA wouldn't have a case, since it wouldn't have been for profit.

The Japanese Unfair Competition Prevention Law specifically mentions that selling software or devices that enable the ripping of copyrighted material is a criminal action from a long time ago, and recently was strengthened to allow for criminal penalties. This is going in the right direction, and I approve of this, For too long people have gotten away with actions that undermine the integrity of pure copying.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-07-17, 05:33

The problem with this argument (and with that law) is the assumption that a copy protection equals an existing copyright and breaching a copy protection always means a copyright violation has happened.

Copyright is established by licenses, contracts and law.
Copy protection (and the circumvention of it) is a technology.

The two are in no way related to each other and can come in any combination. Data that is on a copy protected medium can have any possible kind of legal status and the person that wants to copy it can have any kind of rights and licenses to do that. That's because copyright is tied to the data itself, not to the medium.
The combination 'right to make a copy + copy protected medium' is very much possible and should not be made illegal by bad laws like this.

Providing tools to handle this legally sound combination (for a profit or for free) should also be legal.

ganbaru · 2012-07-17, 05:42

U.S. report says HSBC handled Iran, drug money
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86F18220120717

Drought worsens crop damage, raising world food, fuel worry
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86F1D420120717

Sumeragi · 2012-07-17, 05:47

The broad concept of right to copy in my view is flawed. While we individuals (and note that the law would not be putting any blame on the buyers of such copying technology, short of reselling the technology or selling the copies made) do have the right to copy for personal use, such right should not extend to allowing the developers of the technology to gain a profit, especially given the more hidden condition of digital information.

To me, the "right to copy" has been unreasonably expanded in my people's minds, and it should be curtailed.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-07-17, 05:54

But if a person has a right to copy something, then why should it be illegal to provide this person with the tool to excercise that right?

By making that illegal, they are effectively stripping people of their rights.

Sumeragi · 2012-07-17, 05:56

Providing the tool in itself is not illegal: Selling the tool is.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-07-17, 06:27

If selling any other tool in such a way is legal, then the same thing should go for this one.

Also it's not even strictly 'selling', it's 'profiting'. Which means the same law will apply to a website hosting the tool while displaying an add banner somewhere, or selling stuff unrelated to the tool, or some even more far fetched definitions of profiting. Not really important in this case, but an even higher hurdle for supplying such tools.

If all of these are legal for other tools, but there is a special rule just for copying tools, then this is deliberately designed to hinder people in exercising their rights and the name of 'Unfair Competition Prevention' is just a lie. After all the same thing should apply to any other kind of tool in the same way, as those might also give them an edge over competition.

This is exactly the kind of special treatment bullshit laws that copyright lobbying typically produces. Trying to pass it under a misleading name with wrongly stated intentions is also the usual procedure it seems. People have become aware of this and that's why, at least in certain circles, news like this produce such headlines even when the law itself is ancient.
Otherwise no one would care about just one amongst (in all countries I guess) a myriad of special rules.

Sumeragi · 2012-07-17, 06:34

It seems there is a fundamental disagreement between you and I on the issue of copying tools' status. I am against the BS that are being thrown at the general concept of copyright, where comparison between apples and celery are done to dilute the issue. Yes, I put copying tools on a higher plane of responsibility than most other tools, and as such "Unfair Competition Prevention" is doing is job correctly.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-07-17, 06:51

I am just a firm believer of penalizing the action of the person ultimately responsible for it.

If copying data without having the copyright is illegal, then go after the person doing it if he does that. Don't go after programmers/suppliers or anyone else, who is in no way responsible for another person's actions.

If driving without a license is illegal, then go after illegal drivers. Don't go after car dealers, or auto mechanics.

If slashing someone with a knife if illegal, then go after the person doing it, not after knife manufacturers, or hardware stores.

Any other approach just places huge obstacles into the path of lawful people and dilutes the real criminal act. In this case not only unlawful copying is hindered, but also lawful copying too. And that, I dare say, is fully intentional and one of the main reasons why the law is designed to be so backwards in the first place.

As someone who writes software myself (amongst other things) I can easily come up with a whole number of scenarios where this law (which I'm glad does not exist in my country as far as I know of) would make me a criminal for working in my profession, even though no copyright whatsoever would be breached by anyone.

Sumeragi · 2012-07-17, 07:18

That's a fallacy in that you're assuming regulator unauthorized copiers is as easy as regulating illegal driving or knife slashing. In no way short of somehow planting some sort of homecalling beacon program can you find a cost-effective way of going after the offenders. Following cost-benefits, it is better to go after the supplier than the consumer. This is more akin to illegal drugs: It's better to cut off the supply than arresting each consumer, given that there are no more common and legal method of using the illegal drugs. This might be a clash between the economist and the programmer.

Furthermore, I believe you are overthinking the issue. Given Japan's bureaucratic characteristics, there are rare deviations from the strict reading of the law, so your scenarios would rarely if ever apply in Japanese courts.

sa547 · 2012-07-17, 11:27

15-year-old girl survives accidental javelin hit in the head:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/lifestyle...d-head-javelin

aohige · 2012-07-17, 15:46

I'm with Sumeragi with this.
The understanding of the law has been expanded unhealthily for profitting pirates, which undermines WHY the law to protect personal ownership copying was put in place to begin with.
It's an extremely destructive behavior.

Vexx · 2012-07-17, 15:59

Um.. ya'll get back to me when the copyright owner agrees to provide replacement of media without having to repurchase the product if the original media is damaged. Because if I don't own the product (ergo a license to use it has been given) then they are responsible for providing replacement media for the cost of the media (~$1 for a disk, etc).

When I purchase an IBM operating system for a computer (a real one), I am buying a license to use the "implemented ideas" (the operating system). This is separate from the physical media of delivery. If I damage the media, IBM sends me another set of tapes/disks for only the cost of the media and the preparation of it.

These same concepts apply (should apply) to software, books, music, etc. It is just that the industries involved are trying to have it both ways their ways.

ganbaru · 2012-07-17, 18:05

Insight: Italian gaming liberalization: a bet that did not pay off
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86G0IJ20120717

Somali pirate kingpins enjoy "impunity" - U.N. experts
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86G0ZN20120717

aohige · 2012-07-17, 18:06

It'd cost everyone involved more to send you the copy of media than the worth of that plastic disk itself lol

You can buy a book, and free to make backup copies of it, the publisher isn't obligated to supply you with paper and copy machine.
If you do decide to make copies though, you are not allowed to go sell those copies on your own.

The publishing rights is not included in the five bucks I spent to buy that book.

Vexx · 2012-07-17, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

It'd cost everyone involved more to send you the copy of media than the worth of that plastic disk itself lol

You can buy a book, and free to make backup copies of it, the publisher isn't obligated to supply you with paper and copy machine.
If you do decide to make copies though, you are not allowed to go sell those copies on your own.

The publishing rights is not included in the five bucks I spent to buy that book.

Wasn't asking for it for free... just the cost of the media, prep, and shipping. That concept already exists in commercial grade software, has for decades. The gaming industry was the first one to pretend that idea didn't exist. And of course, the music industry likes to pretend they've given you a license but have sold you a product at the same time, whichever way lets them skip out on their responsibility.

PzIVf3 · 2012-07-17, 19:52

Russian Border Patrol Ship Opens Fire on Chinese Poachers

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...W1eg8.facebook

sa547 · 2012-07-17, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Russian Border Patrol Ship Opens Fire on Chinese Poachers

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...W1eg8.facebook

Looks like they also entered the fray up north.

aohige · 2012-07-17, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

Um.. ya'll get back to me when the copyright owner agrees to provide replacement of media without having to repurchase the product if the original media is damaged. Because if I don't own the product (ergo a license to use it has been given) then they are responsible for providing replacement media for the cost of the media (~$1 for a disk, etc).

When I purchase an IBM operating system for a computer (a real one), I am buying a license to use the "implemented ideas" (the operating system). This is separate from the physical media of delivery. If I damage the media, IBM sends me another set of tapes/disks for only the cost of the media and the preparation of it.

These same concepts apply (should apply) to software, books, music, etc. It is just that the industries involved are trying to have it both ways their ways.

It would be nice if they had a service to simply replace the broken product.
Like what many electronic companies do, send in your broken disk, and they'll send you a new one.
(for just the material cost and shipping, or a small fee)
I'm pretty sure some companies actually already do this.
Yeah, it's retroactive instead of proactive, but at least companies that would honor their customers with such service are worth respect.

It's kinda hard to work with games that has activation codes.
I guess they could require both physical disk and the code, deactivate that code, and provide you with new disk and new code.

Obviously downloadable content wouldn't even need such service, as there aren't any physical product associated with it in the first place.

If it's lost... well, it's lost. Tough luck, it's hard to prove a customer did or did not lose a product.
But in that case it's fair. If I "lose" my TV to a burglerly, I don't really expect a free replacement. That's what home insurance is for.

PzIVf3 · 2012-07-17, 23:24

Two Chinese fishing ships detained by Russia

The Chinese Consulate has confirmed that two Chinese fishing ships have been detained off Russia's Far-East Primorsky region.

The consulate says one ship is carrying 17 fishermen while the other has 19 on board, adding both ships are from Weihai City in east China's Shandong province.

The coastal service of Russia's Far-East region says the two ships have been seized because they entered Russia's exclusive economic zone.

According to RIA Novosti state news agency, a Russian coast guard vessel fired warning shots and then opened targeted fire to stop the Chinese fishing ships. The news agency says none of the fishermen have been harmed in the incident.

http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsu...8/100661.shtml

2012-07-17, 05:42	Link #22483
ganbaru books-eater youkai Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity	U.S. report says HSBC handled Iran, drug money http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86F18220120717 Drought worsens crop damage, raising world food, fuel worry http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86F1D420120717 __________________

2012-07-17, 11:27	Link #22491
sa547 Senior Member Author Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Philippines Age: 47	15-year-old girl survives accidental javelin hit in the head: http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/lifestyle...d-head-javelin __________________

2012-07-17, 15:46	Link #22492
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	I'm with Sumeragi with this. The understanding of the law has been expanded unhealthily for profitting pirates, which undermines WHY the law to protect personal ownership copying was put in place to begin with. It's an extremely destructive behavior. __________________

2012-07-17, 15:59	Link #22493
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	Um.. ya'll get back to me when the copyright owner agrees to provide replacement of media without having to repurchase the product if the original media is damaged. Because if I don't own the product (ergo a license to use it has been given) then they are responsible for providing replacement media for the cost of the media (~$1 for a disk, etc). When I purchase an IBM operating system for a computer (a real one), I am buying a license to use the "implemented ideas" (the operating system). This is separate from the physical media of delivery. If I damage the media, IBM sends me another set of tapes/disks for only the cost of the media and the preparation of it. These same concepts apply (should apply) to software, books, music, etc. It is just that the industries involved are trying to have it both ways their ways. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-07-17, 18:05	Link #22494
ganbaru books-eater youkai Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity	Insight: Italian gaming liberalization: a bet that did not pay off http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86G0IJ20120717 Somali pirate kingpins enjoy "impunity" - U.N. experts http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...86G0ZN20120717 __________________

2012-07-17, 04:09	Link #22481
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	I'm getting sick of all the copyright bashing. The situation here is that the CD was bundled with a magazine, thus making it part of profit even if the magazine would have fetched the same price without the program. If the program was given away free, then the JVSA wouldn't have a case, since it wouldn't have been for profit. The Japanese Unfair Competition Prevention Law specifically mentions that selling software or devices that enable the ripping of copyrighted material is a criminal action from a long time ago, and recently was strengthened to allow for criminal penalties. This is going in the right direction, and I approve of this, For too long people have gotten away with actions that undermine the integrity of pure copying.

2012-07-17, 05:33	Link #22482
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	The problem with this argument (and with that law) is the assumption that a copy protection equals an existing copyright and breaching a copy protection always means a copyright violation has happened. Copyright is established by licenses, contracts and law. Copy protection (and the circumvention of it) is a technology. The two are in no way related to each other and can come in any combination. Data that is on a copy protected medium can have any possible kind of legal status and the person that wants to copy it can have any kind of rights and licenses to do that. That's because copyright is tied to the data itself, not to the medium. The combination 'right to make a copy + copy protected medium' is very much possible and should not be made illegal by bad laws like this. Providing tools to handle this legally sound combination (for a profit or for free) should also be legal.

2012-07-17, 05:47	Link #22484
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	The broad concept of right to copy in my view is flawed. While we individuals (and note that the law would not be putting any blame on the buyers of such copying technology, short of reselling the technology or selling the copies made) do have the right to copy for personal use, such right should not extend to allowing the developers of the technology to gain a profit, especially given the more hidden condition of digital information. To me, the "right to copy" has been unreasonably expanded in my people's minds, and it should be curtailed.

2012-07-17, 05:54	Link #22485
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	But if a person has a right to copy something, then why should it be illegal to provide this person with the tool to excercise that right? By making that illegal, they are effectively stripping people of their rights.

2012-07-17, 05:56	Link #22486
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Providing the tool in itself is not illegal: Selling the tool is.

2012-07-17, 06:27	Link #22487
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	If selling any other tool in such a way is legal, then the same thing should go for this one. Also it's not even strictly 'selling', it's 'profiting'. Which means the same law will apply to a website hosting the tool while displaying an add banner somewhere, or selling stuff unrelated to the tool, or some even more far fetched definitions of profiting. Not really important in this case, but an even higher hurdle for supplying such tools. If all of these are legal for other tools, but there is a special rule just for copying tools, then this is deliberately designed to hinder people in exercising their rights and the name of 'Unfair Competition Prevention' is just a lie. After all the same thing should apply to any other kind of tool in the same way, as those might also give them an edge over competition. This is exactly the kind of special treatment bullshit laws that copyright lobbying typically produces. Trying to pass it under a misleading name with wrongly stated intentions is also the usual procedure it seems. People have become aware of this and that's why, at least in certain circles, news like this produce such headlines even when the law itself is ancient. Otherwise no one would care about just one amongst (in all countries I guess) a myriad of special rules.

2012-07-17, 06:34	Link #22488
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	It seems there is a fundamental disagreement between you and I on the issue of copying tools' status. I am against the BS that are being thrown at the general concept of copyright, where comparison between apples and celery are done to dilute the issue. Yes, I put copying tools on a higher plane of responsibility than most other tools, and as such "Unfair Competition Prevention" is doing is job correctly.

2012-07-17, 06:51	Link #22489
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	I am just a firm believer of penalizing the action of the person ultimately responsible for it. If copying data without having the copyright is illegal, then go after the person doing it if he does that. Don't go after programmers/suppliers or anyone else, who is in no way responsible for another person's actions. If driving without a license is illegal, then go after illegal drivers. Don't go after car dealers, or auto mechanics. If slashing someone with a knife if illegal, then go after the person doing it, not after knife manufacturers, or hardware stores. Any other approach just places huge obstacles into the path of lawful people and dilutes the real criminal act. In this case not only unlawful copying is hindered, but also lawful copying too. And that, I dare say, is fully intentional and one of the main reasons why the law is designed to be so backwards in the first place. As someone who writes software myself (amongst other things) I can easily come up with a whole number of scenarios where this law (which I'm glad does not exist in my country as far as I know of) would make me a criminal for working in my profession, even though no copyright whatsoever would be breached by anyone.

2012-07-17, 07:18	Link #22490
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	That's a fallacy in that you're assuming regulator unauthorized copiers is as easy as regulating illegal driving or knife slashing. In no way short of somehow planting some sort of homecalling beacon program can you find a cost-effective way of going after the offenders. Following cost-benefits, it is better to go after the supplier than the consumer. This is more akin to illegal drugs: It's better to cut off the supply than arresting each consumer, given that there are no more common and legal method of using the illegal drugs. This might be a clash between the economist and the programmer. Furthermore, I believe you are overthinking the issue. Given Japan's bureaucratic characteristics, there are rare deviations from the strict reading of the law, so your scenarios would rarely if ever apply in Japanese courts.

2012-07-17, 18:06	Link #22495
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	It'd cost everyone involved more to send you the copy of media than the worth of that plastic disk itself lol You can buy a book, and free to make backup copies of it, the publisher isn't obligated to supply you with paper and copy machine. If you do decide to make copies though, you are not allowed to go sell those copies on your own. The publishing rights is not included in the five bucks I spent to buy that book. __________________

2012-07-17, 19:52	Link #22497
PzIVf3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Somewhere at Earth	Russian Border Patrol Ship Opens Fire on Chinese Poachers http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...W1eg8.facebook

2012-07-17, 23:24	Link #22500
PzIVf3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Somewhere at Earth	Two Chinese fishing ships detained by Russia The Chinese Consulate has confirmed that two Chinese fishing ships have been detained off Russia's Far-East Primorsky region. The consulate says one ship is carrying 17 fishermen while the other has 19 on board, adding both ships are from Weihai City in east China's Shandong province. The coastal service of Russia's Far-East region says the two ships have been seized because they entered Russia's exclusive economic zone. According to RIA Novosti state news agency, a Russian coast guard vessel fired warning shots and then opened targeted fire to stop the Chinese fishing ships. The news agency says none of the fishermen have been harmed in the incident. http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsu...8/100661.shtml