Game of Thrones

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by james0246

I've forgotten, but was Arya really at the wedding?

She wasn't AT the wedding but she was outside the castle in the tents with the Hound as the wedding happened

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears

That is...utterly hilarious.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

From the looks of things Edmure probably got a dagger in the throat as well, before he could enjoy his bedding ceremony.

Edmure is the lord of the Riverlands. Any legitimate male children of his would be in the line of succession to inherit the River-lands. Edmure Tully is currently legitimately married to one of Frey's daughters. The Frey grandchildren from that pairing would be lords of the Riverlands.

Edmure Tully probably isn't going to be killed. Not right away. He's too valuable as a Prize Stud.

[Pacify]

Knew exactly what was coming, still didn't make it any easier to watch. Woulda been cool to see some of the fight that was in the books, but ohwell. The whole stabbing Talisa bit was a nice touch.... by nice i mean, horrible mind destroying piece of evilness

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Edmure is the lord of the Riverlands. Any legitimate male children of his would be in the line of succession to inherit the River-lands. Edmure Tully is currently legitimately married to one of Frey's daughters. The Frey grandchildren from that pairing would be lords of the Riverlands.

Edmure Tully probably isn't going to be killed. Not right away. He's too valuable as a Prize Stud.

I didn't realize his stature, but I also figured he'd survive. After all, this whole to-do was payback for Robb not marrying one of his daughters. He got a relative of Robb's to marry one, so why would he then go and kill him? At least before an heir is conceived.

And honestly, the biggest "critical hit", if you will, for me was when the cross bowers surrounded Robb's dire wolf and took him down. And poor Arya had to watch as another of the family's dire wolves left the realm.

[Guardian Enzo]

The only issue I have with the depiction of the Red Wedding, really, is that I don't think they did a good job of conveying just what a grievous affront to everything that's held sacred in Westeros it is to offer guests bread, salt and the protection of your house and then do what Frey did. In the book Cat was in fact on edge from the start and told Robb to be sure he ate bread and salt the moment he walked inside Frey's keep.

[Kirarakim]

In the books this scene hit me a lot harder than what happened to Ned Stark. I remember I wasn't shocked at what happened to Ned and I felt I could see it happening. But still this one I didn't expect. This scene was also so much crueler than what happened to Ned.

Although in hindsight I should have known. In the books, Robb gets little development (he actually gets more focus in the TV series) and he had some of the same "noble flaws" as his father. And apparently being noble has no place in the ASOIAF world.

[GoddyofAus]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I dunno, seems like pure politics to me. Walder Frey didn't look like he was being controlled or anything, he just chose the Lannisters over the Northsmen, which is a sensible descision. His execution was just a tad bit more harsh than expected.

I always expected Robb's wife to die, she was just a lame character used as a plot device to screw over Robb. She was also tripping death flags in every episode. From the looks of things Edmure probably got a dagger in the throat as well, before he could enjoy his bedding ceremony. I did expect Robb and Cat to stay around longer, they were kind of carrying the plot before...

I very much doubt that. Edmure is the key to the Tullys territory/loyalty. They'll hold him hostage until he has a child with his new wife then kill him.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

In the books this scene hit me a lot harder than what happened to Ned Stark. I remember I wasn't shocked at what happened to Ned and I felt I could see it happening. But still this one I didn't expect. This scene was also so much crueler than what happened to Ned.

Although in hindsight I should have known. In the books, Robb gets little development (he actually gets more focus in the TV series) and he had some of the same "noble flaws" as his father. And apparently being noble has no place in the ASOIAF world.

I still think people overlook the point that Robb's downfall is traceable back to the fact that he gave Frey a solemn vow, and broke it. That's why Cat was so horrified when she found out - she knew just what a terrible mistake Robb had made. Yes Frey is a miserable wretch of a man, but if a King takes his vows lightly, so will his subjects (as Cat said). If Robb had fulfilled his promise to Frey not only would he likely not be dead, but he might very well have secured the North and sued for a very agreeable peace with a desperate Tywin Lannister.

Would Ned have broken such a vow, even to the late Walder Frey? I rather doubt it.

[Waven]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears

could read these tweets all day

I really liked the changes of the red wedding compared to the novel... made it all the more gruesome.

However it's kinda sad that many viewers probably didn't get the musical reference there, which is like one of the best moments. Unfortunately the few occasions Rains of Castamere has been featured so far in the TV series (Bronn singing, ending credits, recently explained by Cersei) aren't enough for TV viewers (only) to catch the meaning when the band started to play and Catelyn recognized it.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I still think people overlook the point that Robb's downfall is traceable back to the fact that he gave Frey a solemn vow, and broke it. That's why Cat was so horrified when she found out - she knew just what a terrible mistake Robb had made. Yes Frey is a miserable wretch of a man, but if a King takes his vows lightly, so will his subjects (as Cat said). If Robb had fulfilled his promise to Frey not only would he likely not be dead, but he might very well have secured the North and sued for a very agreeable peace with a desperate Tywin Lannister.

Would Ned have broken such a vow, even to the late Walder Frey? I rather doubt it.

Well in the books Robb broke his vows because he slept with the girl and he tried to be honorable. I actually could see Ned doing that.

Now would Ned have slept with her as an adult maybe not. But who knows what he would do at Robb's age.

I do think it was like father like son. Of course Ned had some years of maturity that Robb lacked but it still didn't help him in the end either.

And even if the Frey's betrayal should have been obvious I don't think the cruelty of it should have been. That is probably why it hit me harder than Ned's death. The Frey's certainly went out of their way to make the whole affair as gruesome as possible. Like you said they thought they were safe because they were taken in as guests.

In the end though it shows you can win every battle but still lose the war because of one moment of stupidity.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I still think people overlook the point that Robb's downfall is traceable back to the fact that he gave Frey a solemn vow, and broke it. That's why Cat was so horrified when she found out - she knew just what a terrible mistake Robb had made. Yes Frey is a miserable wretch of a man, but if a King takes his vows lightly, so will his subjects (as Cat said). If Robb had fulfilled his promise to Frey not only would he likely not be dead, but he might very well have secured the North and sued for a very agreeable peace with a desperate Tywin Lannister.

Would Ned have broken such a vow, even to the late Walder Frey? I rather doubt it.

To be honest I always though Robb was a bit of a chump. Way, way back in season one, in one of the first episodes, he was already like "OMG LETS GO TO WAR". Nor was he a strong king, look at the way he handled his mom when she let JAMIE FRICKIN' LANNISTER, the guy who essentially started this whole mess, go, or how merciful he was towards his prisoners. He seemed all the more stupid in the show as compared to the books (he wasn't a POV character in the books, so giant death flag right there). I agree with you, and would take it even further, Ned Stark was a true soldier, Robb was a bit of a prince brat who got lucky in battles (I know its harsh, but this the SoIaF we're talking about.)Even when I read the books, I was never too sad to see him go. The one thing that didn't seem natural in the show I noticed, was when Bolton killed off Robb.

I liked the wifey, but all the lovey-dovey ness put a giant flag on her. Also, unless Danerys eventually goes to Valantis, I can't see how it would ever be tied back to the story.

Cat on the other hand.. different thing altogether. She was a strong character, and a very layered one. The books portrayed TRW way better I thought, because it was from Cats POV, and really showed how crushed she was when it sunk in (when reins of castamere starts playing). The final scene really showed this; she was the real deal, who would go to any lengths to do what she thought she must. Of course, I will dearly miss the wolf as well.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I still think people overlook the point that Robb's downfall is traceable back to the fact that he gave Frey a solemn vow, and broke it. That's why Cat was so horrified when she found out - she knew just what a terrible mistake Robb had made. Yes Frey is a miserable wretch of a man, but if a King takes his vows lightly, so will his subjects (as Cat said). If Robb had fulfilled his promise to Frey not only would he likely not be dead, but he might very well have secured the North and sued for a very agreeable peace with a desperate Tywin Lannister.

Would Ned have broken such a vow, even to the late Walder Frey? I rather doubt it.

What do you mean the "late" Walder Frey?

Originally Posted by Waven

could read these tweets all day

I really liked the changes of the red wedding compared to the novel... made it all the more gruesome.

However it's kinda sad that many viewers probably didn't get the musical reference there, which is like one of the best moments. Unfortunately the few occasions Rains of Castamere has been featured so far in the TV series (Bronn singing, ending credits, recently explained by Cersei) aren't enough for TV viewers (only) to catch the meaning when the band started to play and Catelyn recognized it.

Oh, I got it. As soon as the guy closed the doors and that evil song started playing, I was getting nervous.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The only issue I have with the depiction of the Red Wedding, really, is that I don't think they did a good job of conveying just what a grievous affront to everything that's held sacred in Westeros it is to offer guests bread, salt and the protection of your house and then do what Frey did. In the book Cat was in fact on edge from the start and told Robb to be sure he ate bread and salt the moment he walked inside Frey's keep.

Having studied the ancient Greeks and their own customs of guest-friendship, I had a sense of the profane nature of that betrayal, even if the show didn't go out of its way to convey that.

Not just the Greeks either. Dante would also have a special place in the lowest circle of Hell for the Freys. It's really a cross-cultural, diachronic taboo. You don't betray guests in your home.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well in the books Robb broke his vows because he slept with the girl and he tried to be honorable. I actually could see Ned doing that.

Now would Ned have slept with her as an adult maybe not. But who knows what he would do at Robb's age.

.

Ned wouldn't have done something like that, and you know it. If he would have, then he wouldn't have lost his head at Kings landing, period.

What Robb did was Stupid. While what Frey did was horrible, I don't have any sympathy for Robb. He won all his battles, but couldn't deal with politics (sending Theon to Winterfell against his mothers advice, then killing the old bastard who killed the kids further splitting his forces, breaking his vow, and then going back to the person you broke the vow to.) The guy lost winterfell, "lost" his brothers (who are part of the royal line) pretty much gave up his Right to rule to a pretty face(I mean seriously how stupid do you have to be, if you're king you can have many mistresses that are prettier than her, come on.) halved his forces by killing Castark when he shouldn't have, and then still expected to win the war?

I'm glad he paid the price for his stupidity, if he gave away the North so easily through a series of really really stupid blunders, then as someone before him said, he would have been a HORRBILE king. The only reason people want to defend him is because of all the airtime he got (to make the Red Wedding even more impactful no doubt) I mean what was he going to do if he took the throne, and was all of a sudden burdened with the debt that Joffery racked up in his rule? You can't just "declare bankruptcy" in the feudal/middle ages, like you can now.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by solidguy

She wasn't AT the wedding but she was outside the castle in the tents with the Hound as the wedding happened

I remember her being close by, I just couldn't remember if she got as close to the action as she is shown doing in the show. It's a side point, but I was still interested.

---

As an aside, this has to be the most Stark-centric episode we've seen in quite some time. Besides the brief side-story with Dany (which I felt was a little too underwhelming and maybe should have been excluded), and the briefest of vignettes with that fat guy and mother over the wall, this was a wall-to-wall Stark episode. And it worked quite well for such a specific episode. I especially liked the changes in Rickon. In the books he is around 4 years of age, so he always comes across as a bother and a brat, but here I actually felt for him and his desire to protect his brother. It was a beautiful little moment. Jon was also a lot of fun. He's a character you can root for, since he is one of the few moral individuals left in the story, but at the same time I can't help but call him a jerk for leaving Ygritte like that. Theirs is definitely a relationship that improved greatly in the adaptation.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

I mean what was he going to do if he took the throne, and was all of a sudden burdened with the debt that Joffery racked up in his rule? You can't just "declare bankruptcy" in the feudal/middle ages, like you can now.

Theoretically, you can. You just have to covertly kill anyone who you owed vast amounts of money. And some innocents too, to make sure no one gets suspicious.

[Waven]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

...

Oh, I got it. As soon as the guy closed the doors and that evil song started playing, I was getting nervous.

...

It's not that any viewer couldn't see something bad coming at that point, I see that, but what many couldn't know is that Catelyn didn't hear an evil song per se but recognized it to be "Rains of Castamere", a song that by its very history pretty much means "Don't f with the Lannisters" , often inducing dread to those people it's being played to.

The series' composer only made the melody so sinister because of its most "prominent" use in the story (so far).

Many probably didn't even remember they might have heard it before, during the end credits of Season 2 Ep 9 (with lyrics).

It's just a little detail, the episode was still great, I just think it's a bit of a missed opportunity for the TV series.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

The only reason people want to defend him is because of all the airtime he got (to make the Red Wedding even more impactful no doubt)

I am going by my feelings in the books not the TV series. I am only on the 2nd season of the TV show but have read the books. Yes Robb's role was expanded on the TV show but Robb never even had a POV in the books (which more than anything should have signaled his death).


Robb's stupidity came from his youth, immaturity, but also his father. Being
honorable in this situation was stupid but being honorable is what Robb got from Ned.

Now you can say he wasn't honorable to the Frey's which is true but I suppose he felt being honorable to a woman was more important (and again the situation with the girl is different in the books, so I am also judging Robb by that)

Anyways there are tons of characters who did far worse than anything Robb did who are still alive, so saying he deserved what he got seems silly to me. He didn't deserve what happened to him, but "deserved" is not how this story works. And despite mistakes I think despite not being perfect Robb would have been a good ruler to his people, certainly better than a lot of the alternatives.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by GDB

Theoretically, you can. You just have to covertly kill anyone who you owed vast amounts of money. And some innocents too, to make sure no one gets suspicious.

That would be

Iron Bank of Bravvos.-AKA Wall Street

The High Septon- Aka the pope.

Tywin Lannister-AKA Tywin Lannister. (They made a song about what happened to the last guy who defaulted on a Tywinian Loan, what was it called again? Someone remind me)


Good....Luck.

[Albafica]

My body wasn't ready
HOLY SHIT...I'm shocked....

F*ck Game of thrones.