(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I think you're making them out to be more innocent than they are. They knew they were doing something illegal.

Yes, but illegal like tax evasion, not illegal like murder.

Not only that, but Ainz, through intermediaries, basically hired them to do that thing. That alone removes any moral high ground he might have.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

It actually does, as long as they enter the home illegally with the determination to murder anyone inside.

They have the right to respond proportionately, as in with enough force to protect themselves and others. If an unarmed person comes onto your property and starts screaming about killing you and you happen to have a gun in hand, you're not allowed to kill him.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I think you're making them out to be more innocent than they are. They knew they were doing something illegal.

The Empire and the Kingdom are at war, so you can't really call their actions illegal.

They knew they would have to fight for their lives. Please don't say they didn't, because anyone who picks up a sword, shield, dagger, magic staff and expects to fight against monsters or any other threat should appreciate the fact that they are putting their lives on the line. To think otherwise is arrogance. Simply put, if you're prepared to kill, be prepared to be killed as a risk. That's all it boils down to, at the end of they day, they set forth on an illegal trip to risk their lives. This time they lost the gamble.

Is it tragic? Yes. Did I wish they could have lived? Yes. Did they have a choice? Definitely 100% yes.

I said that Ainz manipulated things so they could not make an informed decision. He gave them false information and forbade them from getting information that would have led to them realizing that the tomb was inhabited.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not really, that one's easy. Jircniv basically doesn't have a choice. He's never even heard of anyone coming close to Ainz' power, so he's grasping at straws. Aside from the Guardians, who would have a chance against Ainz?

They did skip a few things. Like the fact they don't actually know how powerful the Guardians are - they've only seen Mare in action. But they were plenty impressed by "her". (They didn't get that he's a trap.) They speculated that some were there for their brain rather than brawn. And pegged Shalltear, of all people, as weak but smart.

They also sketched how they might entice Mare to betray Ainz: help some oppressed Elves as a favor to him in exchange for something small, and then, using that small thing, blackmail him into bigger crimes. Which just shows how little they understand the NPCs.

I understand that, but the way Jircniv spoke about it seemed like he already had a plan (probably that situation you mentioned with Mare and the elves). If Demiurge actually thinks this king is intelligent then he would know Jircniv had nothing to ofter to lure any of the guardians against Ainz. Jircniv himself said Ainz had everything, so he had no bargain power to begin with. That's why seeing Demiurge coming to such conclusion puzzled me, because only a fool king coud think about such plan without any secret weapon. And if Demiurge suspected Jircniv had such weapon then he would not risk Nazarick's security and play with fire. That's why i was kinda disappointed when Demiurge came to such conclusion because not even him would keep that smile if he suspected the king had world items or some other real secret weapon (not the elves stuff) to turn the tables. Which means we already know the king will not have any chance to inflict any damage against Nazarick and IMO, this would be the perfect time to tease another Ainz vs Shaltear kind of challenge.

Originally Posted by Sixth

Huh What? Just because people know he is evil and he is evil, doesn't mean people shouldn't condemn his evil act when they see one?

I'm talking about the people that thinks what happened to Arche was the worst thing Ainz ever made, when it's far from the truth. Literally, some of the audience actually though Ainz was an anti-hero instead of the evil villain he always was. My point is that no backstory or killing waifus was needed to reach such conclusion.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but illegal like tax evasion, not illegal like murder.

Illegal like "..invoking the wrath of the royal Vasiself family". You think if that was just tax evasion from another country anyone there would care? They called it a dirty job and then discussed about Arche not being able to do dangerous jobs anymore if she wants to take care of her sisters.

Even without all of this, my point still stands. If you're going killing, don't expect you'll always come back without casualties.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not only that, but Ainz, through intermediaries, basically hired them to do that thing. That alone removes any moral high ground he might have.

I never mentioned anything about Ainz in my post. Ainz knows what he did. The Bloody Emperor knows what he did. Both of them do cruel things for the benefit of their people. Though I guess Ainz would never sacrifice one of his companions. Ainz doesn't care how many people outside of Nazarick has to die/suffer to achieve his goals. I believe I've stated that already. I'm not defending him. I'm just pointing out these Workers aren't helpless villagers that stumbled into the dungeon and got slaughtered.

Originally Posted by Endscape

I said that Ainz manipulated things so they could not make an informed decision. He gave them false information and forbade them from getting information that would have led to them realizing that the tomb was inhabited.

Please read above. If you're going to repeat yourself why bother responding? I already addressed your statements. They went armed with weapons. None of them were surprised to see skeletons attacking them on the early floors. Clearly they knew there would be danger. Clearly they knew there's always a chance of death, otherwise why discuss Arche not doing dangerous jobs when she cares for her sisters?

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but illegal like tax evasion, not illegal like murder.

Not only that, but Ainz, through intermediaries, basically hired them to do that thing. That alone removes any moral high ground he might have.

Not to mention all his operations done within the country since he is a invader himself.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Illegal like "..invoking the wrath of the royal Vasiself family". You think if that was just tax evasion from another country anyone there would care? They called it a dirty job and then discussed about Arche not being able to do dangerous jobs anymore if she wants to take care of her sisters.

Even without all of this, my point still stands. If you're going killing, don't expect you'll always come back without casualties.

They aren't citizens of Re-Estize Kingdom, and their countries are at war so what they were doing isn't illegal by Baharuth Empire laws. They're worried that the Kingdom will send someone to kill them, not that they'll become criminals.

Please read above. If you're going to repeat yourself why bother responding? I already addressed your statements. They went armed with weapons. None of them were surprised to see skeletons attacking them on the early floors. Clearly they knew there would be danger. Clearly they knew there's always a chance of death, otherwise why discuss Arche not doing dangerous jobs when she cares for her sisters?

What I'm saying is that if Ainz had not deliberately lied to them and forbidden them to get further info, they wouldn't have chosen to go there in the first place.

Nobody is saying that they're helpless or anything, but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't have an honest choice. You can't just say that they chose to go, so the consequnces are all on them, when their choices were limited to begin with.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but illegal like tax evasion, not illegal like murder.

Not only that, but Ainz, through intermediaries, basically hired them to do that thing. That alone removes any moral high ground he might have.

It's called a sting operation. Everyone involved know they are acting outside the law and that they would die if caught. If you answer the advert for a crime job, you wouldn't get to use that as a defence when the person who posted the advert was the Police.

The Workers were doing a job Adventurers wouldn't do. They died (well, some of them died...) because they were not strong enough. That's all there is to it. Arche took one risk too many so she died. Her co-workers were not so lucky.

Yes, it was a trap. But innocent people were not going to be in the trap to begin with.

There are no doubt plenty of other people who would miss the Workers who didn't come home other than Arche. Arche gets special treatment by the audience because she is a cute girl, the men get no sympathy because of their gender. Also, remember that her sisters are only sold into slavery BECAUSE of their parents; the parents could just sell their mansion and live like commoners, but they choose to sell their kids instead. To ignore that fact is to ignore the source of Arche's misery.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Endscape

They aren't citizens of Re-Estize Kingdom, and their countries are at war so what they were doing isn't illegal by Baharuth Empire laws. They're worried that the Kingdom will send someone to kill them, not that they'll become criminals.

So... if that doesn't stop them from taking the job...

What I'm saying is that if Ainz had not deliberately lied to them and forbidden them to get further info, they wouldn't have chosen to go there in the first place.

...what information were you thinking would have made them not go there? The knowledge that 100% death awaited them there?Because there is no source for that information other than Nazarick denizens themselves... Or were you hoping they would say "Hey guys we are luring you here to die with 100% certainty so please come anyways."

Nobody is saying that they're helpless or anything, but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't have an honest choice. You can't just say that they chose to go, so the consequences are all on them, when their choices were limited to begin with.

The honest choice would have been to not do the dirty job. Its very simple. Last I checked.. me, myself and I are the only ones accountable for the actions I take. Same goes for everyone else. If you choose to do something, you choose to face the rewards or the risks. No one forced them to. They were baited yes. Forced? no.

[TheForsaken]

I think someone in this thread already made this example:

Let's say someone is going to go to the casino to gamble. Is he prepared to lose money? Yes. Does he know the risk? Yes.

So, if he loses money while gambling, then yes, it's his fault.

But you can't blame him if someone suddenly draws a gun and rob his money.
Or if there is a terrorist attack at the casino and he gets killed there.
Or heck, if Cthulhu himself shows up at the casino and murders him.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

...what information were you thinking would have made them not go there? The knowledge that 100% death awaited them there?Because there is no source for that information other than Nazarick denizens themselves... Or were you hoping they would say "Hey guys we are luring you here to die with 100% certainty so please come anyways."

When they were doing their pre-mission briefing, they talk about going to Carne Village to get information on the tomb, but they don't do it, because their employer forbade them to talk to anyone about it. They would never have done the job if they had gone there.

The honest choice would have been to not do the dirty job. Its very simple. Last I checked.. me, myself and I are the only ones accountable for the actions I take. Same goes for everyone else. If you choose to do something, you choose to face the rewards or the risks. No one forced them to. They were baited yes. Forced? no.

When one side is dealing in good faith and the other isn't, you can't make a honest choice. Deciding to take on risk isn't an all or nothing thing, you make choices by weighing risks against benefits.

They weren't forced, but deceiving them so they can't make an informed choice is almost as bad.

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

I think someone in this thread already made this example:

Let's say someone is going to go to the casino to gamble. Is he prepared to lose money? Yes. Does he know the risk? Yes.

So, if he loses money while gambling, then yes, it's his fault.

But you can't blame him if someone suddenly draws a gun and rob his money.
Or if there is a terrorist attack at the casino and he gets killed there.
Or heck, if Cthulhu himself shows up at the casino and murders him.

Or, like in this case, the house was out to rob him from day 1.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Endscape

When one side is dealing in good faith and the other isn't, you can't make a honest choice. Deciding to take on risk isn't an all or nothing thing, you make choices by weighing risks against benefits.

They weren't forced, but deceiving them so they can't make an informed choice is almost as bad.

They weren't deceived. They were not tricked into thinking the dungeon is unguarded or otherwise easy. The fact that they believed this is their own fault.

Absolutely nothing they were told about the tomb was lies.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Endscape

They have the right to respond proportionately, as in with enough force to protect themselves and others. If an unarmed person comes onto your property and starts screaming about killing you and you happen to have a gun in hand, you're not allowed to kill him.

I can, in all actuality, so long as it looks like he has the mean and the will to kill me, as proven in many real life case with police shooting. Beside, in the series, the thieves were really mercenaries armed to the teeth who also happened to kill some of the tomb's residents.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

They weren't deceived. They were not tricked into thinking the dungeon is unguarded or otherwise easy. The fact that they believed this is their own fault.

Absolutely nothing they were told about the tomb was lies.

They were told that it was A RUIN.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

They weren't deceived. They were not tricked into thinking the dungeon is unguarded or otherwise easy. The fact that they believed this is their own fault.

Absolutely nothing they were told about the tomb was lies.

They were told the place was an empty tomb, which is a deception. Preveting people from getting information to make an informed decision is a form of deception.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

I can, in all actuality, so long as it looks like he has the mean and the will to kill me, as proven in many real life case with police shooting.

That's what I meant when I said prportionate response.

Beside, in the series, the thieves were really mercenaries armed to the teeth who also happened to kill some of the tomb's residents.

Eh, can't fault them for this. Killing undead is a public service in this world.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It's called a sting operation. Everyone involved know they are acting outside the law and that they would die if caught. If you answer the advert for a crime job, you wouldn't get to use that as a defence when the person who posted the advert was the Police.

It's actually called entrapment. There's a difference.

The Workers were doing a job Adventurers wouldn't do.

I really want to call bullshit on that argument. It's like saying Adventurers won't hold up a bank, but they'll drive the getaway vehicle.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I understand that, but the way Jircniv spoke about it seemed like he already had a plan (probably that situation you mentioned with Mare and the elves).

That and another thing. They think Ainz is an overbearing tyrant and his subordinates might chafe under his rule.

If Demiurge actually thinks this king is intelligent then he would know Jircniv had nothing to ofter to lure any of the guardians against Ainz. Jircniv himself said Ainz had everything, so he had no bargain power to begin with. That's why seeing Demiurge coming to such conclusion puzzled me, because only a fool king coud think about such plan without any secret weapon.

Having nothing to offer Ainz isn't the same as nothing for the Guardians. But it's not a firm plan or anything - for now, Jircniv just wants to learn what might be an effective bribe, and get it.

And if Demiurge suspected Jircniv had such weapon then he would not risk Nazarick's security and play with fire. That's why i was kinda disappointed when Demiurge came to such conclusion because not even him would keep that smile if he suspected the king had world items or some other real secret weapon (not the elves stuff) to turn the tables. Which means we already know the king will not have any chance to inflict any damage against Nazarick and IMO, this would be the perfect time to tease another Ainz vs Shaltear kind of challenge.

Demiurge - and Ainz - would love it if Jircniv had a World Item. Especially if it's the one used on Shalltear. First because World Items aren't invincible, especially against other World Item owners. Second because then they'd know who brainwashed Shalltear. They still don't, and rectifying that is a high priority.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

They were told that it was A RUIN.

Who did? Certainly not Ainz and Demi-Urge.

Fact is by the end of episode 8 Jircniv somehow seemed to know that Ainz Oowl Gown is the owner of the "ruin". He already knew that Ainz Oowl Gown is a magic caster who was capable enough to SAVE the strongest person from the Re-Estize Kingdom - in conclusion he at some point got to know that the owner of the "ruin" is a strong intelligent person who does NOT kill any random living beings on sight. In other words, an individual capable of reason.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where he only confirmed Ainz Oowl Gown as the tomb's owner only after the raid-attempt by the Workers since there were no survivors and the "messenger" (Aura+Mare+Dragon) only arrived afterwards.

In conclusion, the one who ultimately held back information and sent the Workers to their death was Jircniv, not Ainz or Demi-Urge. Sure, it's possible that Fluder "adviced" Jircniv not to tell the Workers this important info, or that Demi-Urge planned the whole thing with the assumption that Jircniv would not tell the info to the Workers, but ultimately it was Jircniv who made the decision.

[Nymene]

Can we all stop talking about the Workers ? They're side characters whose purpose is to only appear in one small story arc , and not that important to the main plot like other side characters who will continue to play a role in the story like the previous couple from the Goblin arc, Zaryusu, Emperor Jircniv, Fluder, etc.....

On other forums, they're already moving on and starting to talk about Ainz's plans for conquest and the upcoming war involving a bunch of monsters with many mouths that Ainz will summon as seen in this season's poster. Hmmm...can't wait for those Shubbies in action

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Eh, can't fault them for this. Killing undead is a public service in this world.

But racism isn't a good defend, no matter what world they lived in. As the story showed, there are rational and good undead in that world. Beside the thieves didn't kill them for the sake of the world anyway.

[Yan3242]

Wow this episode 7-8 really leave quite an impact for some of you eh? I already forgot about them considering they are just nobodies.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

In conclusion, the one who ultimately held back information and sent the Workers to their death was Jircniv, not Ainz or Demi-Urge. Sure, it's possible that Fluder "adviced" Jircniv not to tell the Workers this important info, or that Demi-Urge planned the whole thing with the assumption that Jircniv would not tell the info to the Workers, but ultimately it was Jircniv who made the decision.

Haha, now it is totally Jircniv's fault. Got it. "Sasuga Ainz-sama" can't never wrong. These devious people framed him for the evil that he has nothing to do with it.