Dragon Ball Super (Manga)

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Beerus said that "Destruction" causes the target to cease to exist. The stuff Granolah used that move on didn't cause its targets to cease to exist. The time when he used it in front of the Heeters, he just turned a piece of rock into sand--since it still existed as sand, it didn't cease to exist. So that wasn't "Destruction".

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure Beerus turned Zamasu into sand. At the very least, that's what Goku was doing to fused Zamasu when he was trying to emulate hakai.

The boulder, on the other hand, is 100% hakai. They weren't exactly subtle with it either.

[alex_drian]

We are Mahoyo now.

[Tong]

Frieza and Saiyans as Granolah's main targets huh, maybe we can see Broly again.

[GDB]

Spoiler for Chapter 71:

Not that there was any doubt, but they've absolutely confirmed that Goku "transforms" to use UI. Not sure if it needed to be said, but it was said. However, Whis says this shouldn't be the case. But at the same time, the transformation gives Goku more power so it let's him transcend his limits. Which makes me wonder wtf Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation actually is. Is it just Blue but with UI? Standard SSJ with UI? A new transformation entirely (Silver?)?

Heeters then hire Goku and Vegeta to fight Granola. I'm curious how this will play out, but it feels like a rather cliche way to force a fight. Well, better than the alternatives, I guess.

Beerus gives Vegeta an earring and basically starts a new competition (GoD vs Angel) using Vegeta and Goku as proxies. And Vegeta starts sussing them out almost as soon as they meet, but gets sweet talked into ignoring his gut.

And then the Heeters trick Granola into thinking Goku and Vegeta work for Frieza. This is going to be the most cliche misunderstanding ever.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by GDB

Spoiler for Chapter 71:

Not that there was any doubt, but they've absolutely confirmed that Goku "transforms" to use UI. Not sure if it needed to be said, but it was said. However, Whis says this shouldn't be the case. But at the same time, the transformation gives Goku more power so it let's him transcend his limits. Which makes me wonder wtf Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation actually is. Is it just Blue but with UI? Standard SSJ with UI? A new transformation entirely (Silver?)?

Goku being able to use UI in his base form but also having a more powerful UI state as a transformation does make little sense. I thought the hair turning white was just how a mortal looked when using UI, and it made sense since the Angels have white hair. Moro's fur also turned white when he absorbed Merus' powers. It probably won't ever be explained.

I wasn't expecting the Heeters' scheming to be so comedic. It actually reminded me of early Dragon Ball. I think it's fine for Goku to fall for this since he's a battle maniac and for Granolah as well since he's blinded by revenge, but I'll be disappointed if Vegeta doesn't realize they're being used (and Vegeta does NOT like being used).

Cereal's dragon just keeps getting worse. The balls never go inert, how convenient.

[DragonOsman]

I just read the chapter.

@GDB: Goku doesn't really need to transform to use Ultra Instinct, but I don't think the transformation itself is a SSJ form. His hair doesn't stand up they way it usually does when SSJ is used.

Edit:
@Kanon: I think it's good that Goku can use UI in base as well since it should be a state of mind. The transformation is more for pushing past his limits.

You do have a point about Moro's hair turning white and how the Angels have white hair though. But maybe Goku just has to transform closer to an Angel to surpass his limits when using UI, rather than UI requiring or making your hair to be white. Moro absorbed Meerus's power so the power itself made his fur white.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I wasn't expecting the Heeters' scheming to be so comedic. It actually reminded me of early Dragon Ball.

This entire chapter reminded me of early Dragon Ball too.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Goku being able to use UI in his base form but also having a more powerful UI state as a transformation does make little sense.

Well, let's not forget Saiyan Beyond God was a thing, so they're applying the same principle here but with UI instead of godly ki.

Earring Vegeta is gonna be hella marketable, you heard here first.

[DragonOsman]

I think Goku does have God ki in his white hair form. It's just "better" God ki than that of his other God ki forms. I'd like to have an official explanation, though.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Tong

Well, let's not forget Saiyan Beyond God was a thing, so they're applying the same principle here but with UI instead of godly ki.

Earring Vegeta is gonna be hella marketable, you heard here first.

When that was a thing (it didn't stay a thing for long), they at least explained that SSB was SSJ when used with God ki.

If white hair UI is SSJ on top of UI, then tell us.

[Robotech Master]

Originally Posted by Kanon

When that was a thing (it didn't stay a thing for long), they at least explained that SSB was SSJ when used with God ki.

If white hair UI is SSJ on top of UI, then tell us.

Yeah, when Saiyan Beyond God was a thing the idea seemed to be that SSB was just what SSJ was after they incorporated God ki into their base form, with SSJ2 and 3 having become unnecessary.

But then that changed because...probably marketing reasons. Got to sell some red haired Vegeta figures and shit.

They definitely haven't established complete UI form as SSJ on top of UI; Goku seemed to have to slowly figure out a whole new thing to achieve it during the ToP. Its kind a weird thing that his UI was locked behind a transformation, and Whis kinda touched on this in the chapter. It seems like even Whis doesn't know quite what to call the transformation, and its implied he can incorporate UI into his base but this form, whatever it is, is still a power boost of some kind. Maybe its a Saiyan thing? Just because transformation is such a thing to them, UI has this kind of effect on them.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, it could be Saiyan thing. But I still think it's also him transforming closer to an Angel. When he used MUI in the ToP, it was noted that he's become a different kind of being. And the Angels probably have some kind of God ki, too. And the Angels are the only known practitioners of UI anyway.

[AP24]

So UI seems to be more of an angel technique which is why most God of Destruction can’t master it

[justavisitor]

the god ki and UI setting in db super is just a complete mess. Let me see can I outline the confusion here:

1. First they introduce the god ki that no one else but god can sense it
2. There is a brief moment that base goku becomes much stronger because of the utilization of god ki...that concept is being tossed aside after the frieza movie it seems
3. then we finally have an official distinction between red and blue
4. in TOP, we know that god of destruction could be from a mortal (That clown in universe 11). Now it seems like anyone strong enough can become a god of destruction (Does Toppo even have god ki in anime??)
5. it seems slowly everyone starts to recognize how strong goku is in his blue form. It should not be possible since they are not supposed to sense god ki. But I guess for marketing reason, you don't want Tien and Krillin keep saying "I can't sense a thing" during the TOP XD
6. UI, which is supposed to be a technique, becomes transformation
7. Now everyone can sense how powerful Goku is in his blue form, but they "once again" cannot sense anything from Goku in UI (From the last arc of the manga)
8. Now Whis tells Goku to apply UI in his base form, which is basically just point #2

No matter how you interpret this, the level of this mess is just over 9000

[alex_drian]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

the god ki and UI setting in db super is just a complete mess. Let me see can I outline the confusion here:

1. First they introduce the god ki that no one else but god can sense it
2. There is a brief moment that base goku becomes much stronger because of the utilization of god ki...that concept is being tossed aside after the frieza movie it seems
3. then we finally have an official distinction between red and blue
4. in TOP, we know that god of destruction could be from a mortal (That clown in universe 11). Now it seems like anyone strong enough can become a god of destruction (Does Toppo even have god ki in anime??)
5. it seems slowly everyone starts to recognize how strong goku is in his blue form. It should not be possible since they are not supposed to sense god ki. But I guess for marketing reason, you don't want Tien and Krillin keep saying "I can't sense a thing" during the TOP XD
6. UI, which is supposed to be a technique, becomes transformation
7. Now everyone can sense how powerful Goku is in his blue form, but they "once again" cannot sense anything from Goku in UI (From the last arc of the manga)
8. Now Whis tells Goku to apply UI in his base form, which is basically just point #2

No matter how you interpret this, the level of this mess is just over 9000

Super Saiyan Blue and everything after that was a mistake. What a surprise.

[The Green One]

Well that's what happens when you run through all the colors of the Super Saiyan rainbow just so you can have a fresh form to deal with the latest flavor of bullshit in the neverending escalation train that is this series.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Well that's what happens when you run through all the colors of the Super Saiyan rainbow just so you can have a fresh form to deal with the latest flavor of bullshit in the neverending escalation train that is this series.

Hey, there are still more colors left! I'm going to laugh pretty hard if Vegeta does get SSJ Purple.

[The Green One]

The downside it just gets more and more impossible to take it seriously. You can only have so many super duper secret omgawesomesauce legendary hidden alpha ultra omega forms until you just roll your eyes in disgust with each new one.

[Chosen_Hero]

The Ultimate Gohan look should have been the peak of mastered Super Saiyan, the hair going back to it's original color but keeping the shape of SS hair, meanwhile, getting the same boost that makes him able to fight off even the broken ass fusions (the only thing I like about the ToP in the manga is the part about Gohan defeating Kefla easily).

Red should have been the only God Ki form, I don't hate Blue, but it muddled the transformation chart so hard people still don't know what to properly call it in english (I really hate the SSGSS bs, it's about as bad the Xbox names).

As for UI, it should have just stayed a technique (the part about it being an angel technique is fine in my book) that works at base form with no transformations, it just looks so much better when it's in it's omen form than the white haired mastered version.

[alex_drian]

I blame Super Saiyan Blue:

- Unneccesary
- Redundant
- Shoved in the worst arc of the franchise
- The stupidiest name ever (try to tell some average person that knows of DB about the why of the SSGSS).This even taking into account that Super Saiyan Rosé is a thing.
- Appearance wise literally SS but in blue.
- Shoved almost inmediately after SSG and when their mechanics weren't clear yet. Someone remember when Goku in base was able to fight Beerus and Freezer? and that was ignored after SSB because SSG was cemented as a properly SS form?
- The one with the WORST SHOWING EVER. Presented as an upgrade of SSG, but inmediately after introduction is demostrated on par oterwise inferior to Golden Freezer. In this arc one SSB is surprise shot by the basic laser weapon and the other one is killed, unable to tank/fend off the destruction of a planet. After this procced to job to everything until this day. As consequence SSG also job to everything and still manage to get a better showing than SSB ocasionally.

Seriously SSG should have been peak and procced from there with the UI and Hakai being power-up boost/techniques ala Kaiou-Ken.