[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Hershel L]

How should I start?Well...I'm a new user, in fact I registered this morning, and I found this thread while I was searching for some theories about Umineko. I finished reading the visual novels in July and then I moved onto Higurashi and I finished it a few days ago, so I decided to go back to Umineko.
When I first read it, I made a big mistake, since I thought that later in the novel all the questions would have been resolved, but I was wrong. In fact, I decided to read all the novels again, in order to elaborate my own theory. However I came to the conclusion that I didn't understand anything xD
Most of all, I'm very confused about Ikuko and Tohya story. I know that one day Ikuko found Battler on the road and she gave him the name Tohya and so on. Later, Ikuko found "Confession of the Golden Witch", in witch Sayo wrote her story, right? After that, Ikuko and Tohya started writing other episodes in order to get back Tohya memories. Did they write all the forgeries, from Banquet to Twilight? If it is correct, how can we be sure that Ange's story is real?
There are also other questions I would like to ask but now I don't remember them xD

(P.S. I know my English is bad, since I'm Italian, so sorry for all the errors I made while writing this post.)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Hershel L

How should I start?Well...I'm a new user, in fact I registered this morning, and I found this thread while I was searching for some theories about Umineko. I finished reading the visual novels in July and then I moved onto Higurashi and I finished it a few days ago, so I decided to go back to Umineko.
When I first read it, I made a big mistake, since I thought that later in the novel all the questions would have been resolved, but I was wrong. In fact, I decided to read all the novels again, in order to elaborate my own theory. However I came to the conclusion that I didn't understand anything xD
Most of all, I'm very confused about Ikuko and Tohya story. I know that one day Ikuko found Battler on the road and she gave him the name Tohya and so on. Later, Ikuko found "Confession of the Golden Witch", in witch Sayo wrote her story, right? After that, Ikuko and Tohya started writing other episodes in order to get back Tohya memories. Did they write all the forgeries, from Banquet to Twilight? If it is correct, how can we be sure that Ange's story is real?
There are also other questions I would like to ask but now I don't remember them xD

(P.S. I know my English is bad, since I'm Italian, so sorry for all the errors I made while writing this post.)

Oh, another Italian! Welcome to the Umineko club!
LOL, if it can be of some comfort to you we don't know much about Ikuko and Tohya either.
It was never said when Tohya fully recovered his memory or why he wrote his tales. We only know that Dawn was written for Beato and Twilight for Ange.
Banquet, Alliance and End might have been written for other purposes.

It's generally assumed that the stories we read aren't exactly the stories that people would read in Ange's world. They shouldn't contain the meta.
Ange's story is sort of cut in two parts. Her past is more or less public knowledge and therefore likely true. Her future after Eva's death is in a catbox and in fact the game handed out various ending for her.
We don't know which one is true and I think Ryukishi back then didn't want us to know but to chose the one we preferred... even if he admitted in an interview for him the right ending was the magic ending.
So very likely the magic ending tells us Ange's correct future.

I hope it helps!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Hershel L

Later, Ikuko found "Confession of the Golden Witch", in witch Sayo wrote her story, right?

Ikuko found out about the letters and Rokkenjima in general on the internet. You can pretty much guess from that that this happened several years later from the day Battler was found, meanwhile "Hachijou Tohya" had already become a famous mystery writer.
At this point there were already forgeries roaming around.

Originally Posted by Hershel L

After that, Ikuko and Tohya started writing other episodes in order to get back Tohya memories. Did they write all the forgeries, from Banquet to Twilight?

It's not really very clear. A forgery that closely narrates the events of Banquet was definitely written by them, Alliance most likely too. After that it's all very fuzzy. It is certain that the stories weren't exactly the same stories that we read, but I personally think it's very probable that Ikuko added metaworld scenes (While Yasu most likely didn't).

Originally Posted by Hershel L

If it is correct, how can we be sure that Ange's story is real?

We can't, and in fact the whole story of 1998 Ange in EP4 most likely didn't actually happen. Even so the general consensus is that it could have happened as one of the many possibilities, and so everything that was uncovered during that journey is regarded as real.
Actually the encounter between Ange and "Hachijou Tohya" in EP6 is most certainly fake. The real Ikuko isn't nearly as arrogant and she never used expressions like "child of man" in the flashbacks with amnesiac Battler nor in the magic ending of EP8 when she finally meets Ange.

[Hershel L]

Oh, another Italian! Welcome to the Umineko club!

Thank you. Are there other Italian? Happy to hear that.

We don't know which one is true and I think Ryukishi back then didn't want us to know but to chose the one we preferred... even if he admitted in an interview for him the right ending was the magic ending.
So very likely the magic ending tells us Ange's correct future.

I think it is very clear that that was a trick, but I think the real ending is the Magic one, too. Moreover, I think it is necessary in order to know the real Ange, Ikuko and Tohya and so to speculate about other episodes.

I hope it helps!

Sure, it helped me a lot! Thank you!

They shouldn't contain the meta.

I personally think it's very probable that Ikuko added metaworld scenes (While Yasu most likely didn't).

I also thought that...could meta-world scenes represent Tohya's attempt to regain his memories?

We can't, and in fact the whole story of 1998 Ange in EP4 most likely didn't actually happen. Even so the general consensus is that it could have happened as one of the many possibilities, and so everything that was uncovered during that journey is regarded as real.

So the story could be false, but the things that Ange discovers are true? I agree, I think it makes sense.

Actually the encounter between Ange and "Hachijou Tohya" in EP6 is most certainly fake. The real Ikuko isn't nearly as arrogant and she never used expressions like "child of man" in the flashbacks with amnesiac Battler nor in the magic ending of EP8 when she finally meets Ange.

I had that impression too, while I was reading the novel: they were so different!

Thank you very much for your replies, they helped me

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Ikuko found out about the letters and Rokkenjima in general on the internet. You can pretty much guess from that that this happened several years later from the day Battler was found, meanwhile "Hachijou Tohya" had already become a famous mystery writer.
At this point there were already forgeries roaming around.

In the manga is shown that Ikuko found also the bottle with inside Confession of the golden witch and wanted to open it up with Battler just after they had managed to finish their first manuscript and therefore when they weren't published authors yet.
We learn that Ikuko and Tohya had been talking about the Rokkenjima incident few days before and that Ikuko had discovered that now it was getting popular in the internet.
So forgeries began roaming around when Tohya and Ikuko had just published their first book as Hachijo Tohya.
We know also that the Rokkenjima mystery began popular after Kinzo's library was sold and the second message bottle was found.
Kinzo's library was sold in 1987 but we don't know when the message in the bottle was found so it's hard to pin a date on when Ikuko and Tohya began writing forgeries but they discovered about Rokkenjima prior to being famous writers.

Originally Posted by Hershel L

Thank you. Are there other Italian? Happy to hear that.

*nods* I am.

Originally Posted by Hershel L

I think it is very clear that that was a trick, but I think the real ending is the Magic one, too. Moreover, I think it is necessary in order to know the real Ange, Ikuko and Tohya and so to speculate about other episodes.

Well, all the magic ultimately is a trick, we basically had ep 6 making it really clear that there's no real magic in this story... yet it also pushed forward the idea that it's okay to call some tricks 'magic' under certain conditions (the trick with the cup and the candy made by the two Beato... LOL, candies in this story are always tied in with magic... I wonder if it's in honour to Lambda... :P ).

Originally Posted by Hershel L

I also thought that...could meta-world scenes represent Tohya's attempt to regain his memories?

It could be. It's a popular theory but so far it isn't confirmed yet.

[Hershel L]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In the manga is shown that Ikuko found also the bottle with inside Confession of the golden witch and wanted to open it up with Battler just after they had managed to finish their first manuscript and therefore when they weren't published authors yet.

Yeah, I remember something like that but I thought I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

*nods* I am.

LOL I'm so happy I'm not alone xD

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, all the magic ultimately is a trick, we basically had ep 6 making it really clear that there's no real magic in this story... yet it also pushed forward the idea that it's okay to call some tricks 'magic' under certain conditions (the trick with the cup and the candy made by the two Beato... LOL, candies in this story are always tied in with magic... I wonder if it's in honour to Lambda... :P ).

Without love, magic cannot be seen :P
Probably Ryushiki wants us to believe in the power of magic and in the power of love.
It seems like magic=love xD

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

We learn that Ikuko and Tohya had been talking about the Rokkenjima incident few days before and that Ikuko had discovered that now it was getting popular in the internet.

This is actually a very important aspect, which I myself often forget. The big question is: Did Ryukishi actually research the history of the Internet in Japan when addressing this part?
Why is that important? Because internet only became available around 1991 and was only largely accessible by 1994 in Japan. Internet, before being made a commercial good for public use around 1994, was priced at between several 10.000 to 100.000 Yen (1000 to 10.000 dollar) per month and was largely used for business. So even if Ikuko had been given Internet earlier by her rich parents, there wouldn't be many (if any) entries about Rokkenjima on it then.

So IF the history Ryukishi uses is actually correct, then Tohya would have already lived 7-8 years with Ikuko before he came into contact with CotGW. It would of course make the whole process a lot more organic, giving the incident time to blow up over a course of 7 years, having Tohya in existence for almost a third of his body's lifespan, the public opinion probably already shifting over to other culprit theories besides Eva.

So forgeries began roaming around when Tohya and Ikuko had just published their first book as Hachijo Tohya.

so it's hard to pin a date on when Ikuko and Tohya began writing forgeries but they discovered about Rokkenjima prior to being famous writers.

Actually going by the above and what Ikuko says in the manga, forgeries must have been around quite a while already. When she explains the whole afair to Tohya again in the Interlude chapter she talks about several forgeries already being on the internet, it seems though as if Hachijo Tohya was the first one to actually PUBLISH a forgery.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

This is actually a very important aspect, which I myself often forget. The big question is: Did Ryukishi actually research the history of the Internet in Japan when addressing this part?
Why is that important? Because internet only became available around 1991 and was only largely accessible by 1994 in Japan. Internet, before being made a commercial good for public use around 1994, was priced at between several 10.000 to 100.000 Yen (1000 to 10.000 dollar) per month and was largely used for business. So even if Ikuko had been given Internet earlier by her rich parents, there wouldn't be many (if any) entries about Rokkenjima on it then.

So IF the history Ryukishi uses is actually correct, then Tohya would have already lived 7-8 years with Ikuko before he came into contact with CotGW. It would of course make the whole process a lot more organic, giving the incident time to blow up over a course of 7 years, having Tohya in existence for almost a third of his body's lifespan, the public opinion probably already shifting over to other culprit theories besides Eva.

Actually going by the above and what Ikuko says in the manga, forgeries must have been around quite a while already. When she explains the whole afair to Tohya again in the Interlude chapter she talks about several forgeries already being on the internet, it seems though as if Hachijo Tohya was the first one to actually PUBLISH a forgery.

Well, it would be interesting if Ryukishi had actually done some researches and we could place the scene in which Tohya and Ikuko talk about forgeries around 1994.

This is what we know about Hachijo Tohya and Itouikukuro Reigonamu from Ep 6.

Hachijo Tohya is a mystery novelist who's become the center of discussion lately.
It seems her actual books have been highly praised, but it's her mysterious debut that's attracted so much attention towards her lately.
Last year, she somehow managed to win several different awards for exceptional mystery novels offered by multiple large publishing companies, submitting each of her works under a different pen name.
And after that, several highly regarded anonymous works were discovered, one after another, to have been stories she had written in the past under false names, and her popularity soared as she herself became more mysterious than her books.
Despite all of this, the author herself never appeared in public, and everything about her was wrapped in a veil of secrecy. However, just a few days ago, this author had finally made a public appearance for a book signing, showing up with a mask that covered 'his' face and drawing even more public attention...
......And yet, apparently even that had been a fake.

Since it's implied that this meeting never happened it can be that actually the man who showed up was Tohya/Battler, with Ikuko being the one playing assistant... but if that was the case I guess just by looking to a photo of the man Ange might have noticed a resemblance to her brother and this goes unmentioned so maybe that man was really a mere stand in.

Anyway it seems that Hachijo became popular only recently... and even though they were writing previously they did it under other nicknames.

"Itouikukuro Reigonamu. It was a pretty strange pen name. However, if you match the Japanese syllables to numbers, you can read it as 11019960576."
11,019,960,576. This massive number is equal to 18 to the eighth power.
18 to the eighth.
In Japanese, 'tohya no hachijo'.
......That's how you reach Hachijo Tohya...

Considering previously they weren't using Hachijo Tohya as a nick it's possible they started to use it because they wanted Ange to reach that connection... even if, since Tohya ultimately refused to meet her, it can be he just freaked out at the last minute.

However, I didn't come here to talk to Hachijo Tohya, the mystery novelist.
......I'm interested in Itouikukuro Reigonamu, the mysterious web author who only released her works over the Internet...
Around the Japanese parts of the Internet, Itouikukuro is an extremely famous Witch Hunter.
However, she isn't a big opinion leader like Professor Ootsuki.
She was one of those 'message bottle Forgers', who were always the center of vigorous debate...
Message bottle Forgers are, as the name suggests, people who forge and post the contents of riddle-filled message bottles which purport to tell the story of the Rokkenjima incident.
They claim to have discovered a new message bottle and post either a very close counterfeit story or a new theory with their own interpretation of the truth, claiming that it was written by Ushiromiya Maria.
They openly call themselves 'Ushiromiya Maria', write up a new bizarre tale as if they had been there themselves and knew the truth, and send their stories out into the newest sea that mankind has discovered--the Internet--calling them the third or fourth message bottles...
All of the first Forgers were either simple pranksters or crooks trying to swindle collectors.
However, eventually, people who claimed to have solved the riddles of the message bottles' tales and reached the 'truth' started to appear, and they started work creating third and fourth message bottles from Ushiromiya Maria, as though they had moved over to the riddle-teller's side.
Since these people rewrote the tale of the witch with whatever interpretation they wanted, every once in a while, parts of their theory would gain a great amount of support on the net. Some of these 'creations' began to be so widely trusted that they were believed to contain some grain of truth.
The more rigid Witch Hunters openly despised these people, calling them 'Forgers', 'Counterfeiters', or just 'Witches'.
Though they claimed to have reached the truth, they refused to tell it, and created fake message bottles as though testing everyone else.
It's no surprise that the serious Witch Hunters were very annoyed by these Forgers...
However, there were many people who simply liked to entertain themselves with the occult fantasy of Rokkenjima, and a small number of those accepted these creations as literary works, glad of this expansion to the mysterious tale...
Of all the Forgers, Itouikukuro was the one most highly regarded.
"......End of the Golden Witch. I've read that one. ......Seems you love killing off other people's families."
"Is that why you came all this way? Just to say that...? I think not, final descendant of the Ushiromiya family."
In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story.
No, if you count 'Alliance' and 'Banquet', the other forgeries she's made before now, then she's killed off most of my family in horrible ways, over and over again...
Of course I'd want to complain.
However, all of her works are known for being, in both form and level of completion, the closest tales to those written by 'Ushiromiya Maria' herself.
In particular, Itouikukuro's first forgery, 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', managed to show everything, including Ushiromiya Eva's escape to Kuwadorian. People wondered whether this might be the true story of Rokkenjima, and it even made it onto the talk shows...
So far, all of these tales have been nothing more than electronic text on the web.
......However, people will eventually realize that Itouikukuro is actually Hachijo Tohya.
When that happens, it will become the work of 'that bizarre Hachijo', and no one will think of them as mere fan creations. ...People will probably start wondering if this might actually be a third message bottle she found and released under the guise of a story she herself wrote. When that happens, these stories will probably seem even more bizarre and credible...

Itouikukuro Reigonamu didn't quite print his forgeries but just released them on the net... starting with Banquet and going on with Alliance and End. If to write them he/they took as much time as Ryukishi they were probably written in 1997/98... though it's possible he took more time as he/they had to keep up with their work as official writers as well... and then there are Tohya's problems with coping with his memory to keep into considerations and that might have slowed him down.

So yes, it's very likely when Tohya recovered his memory he had spent already quite a good amount of time with Ikuko.

[haguruma]

And it's time for another chapter, though this time it's a rather short one.
Against expectations, they ended this chapter with Ange making her choice and so I'm wondering whether next months chapter will actually end the main-portion of the game or if there will be another break between the Ikuko/Battler scenes and then Ange's final choice in 1998...or maybe if we're even gonna get more original content.

Spoiler for Chapter 34 Ange's Choice:

Battler:
You did it, Ange

Ange-Beato:
Thanks to all of you!
The eagle of Ushiromiya is no longer one-winged
With the wings of our hearts it can finally fly wherever it wants to...

Erika:
!
My..
My master...
MY MASTEEEEER!!

Bern (cat):
Me...
Mew...

Ange-Beato:
Don't worry, just like your truth cannot hurt mine, I cannot harm your truth either

Battler:
Now she's nothing more than a dust-rag, I see?

Beato:
We should at least give ourself the pleasure of torturing her a little!

Ange-Beato:
Wait, Beato!

Beato:
Hm?!

Ange-Beato:
Don't be so overfamiliar with my big brother!
It's not like I ever acknowledged your relationship!

Beato:
You foolish thing! It was you who brough me back to life!
It's already too late! Me and my lovely company will torture you for the rest of your life!
And you will have to look at me and Battler making out all the time!
AAAAAAH?!

Ange-Beato:
My, this magic of ressurection is mighty practical! It even has an on-off switch!

Battler:
Like a light bulb

Beato:
Battleeeer, Ange is mean to meeee!!

Sakutaro:
Ange, you are the best! Uryuu!

Mamon:
Ange-sama! Congratulations on attaining the magic of ressurection!!

Ange-Beato:
Sakutaro! Mamon!

Mamon:
So this means
That we can finally be together forever, right?!

Ange-Beato:
Mamon...

Mamon (flashback):
Your first and final friend!!

Ange (flashback):
Sakutaro is nothing but a toy made of cloth and thread!
Shut up, you're an illusion!!!!

Ange-Beato:
Yes...that's right
The anti-magic toxin has no influence on it anymore...
Because...
you are all in here
Together with me for all time!

Stakes:
Ange-sama!!
Ange-sama!!

Ange-Beato:
Wha...wow...wow
Wha....

Lucifer:
Oops

Mamon:
Ange-sama has gained a few pounds over time

Ange-Beato:
MAMON!
!

Featherine:
What a splendid Golden Truth, Lady Ange-Beatrice!
To celebrate this miracle, I am bestowing upon you the title of Lady
The story you wove was quite a splendid one!

Ange-Beato:
Featherine...

Featherine:
No need to be so on guard
I am here to congratulate you
I am a mere bystander and have no intention to fight you
I am grateful that you did not take the life of my miko when you defeated her
I would be quite bored if my little kitten were to die

Ange-Beato:
.....
I will not forgive you after killing Lambdadelta

Featherine:
Very well...
To show my respect for your story, I promise to rewrite the final stand of Lady Lambdadelta
How about her having to leave the gameboard after being defeated, and now gobbling up popcorn up in the spectator-rows?

Ange-Beato:
Re...really?
....I'm so relieved...

Featherine:
With this the key has once again made it's way back to you

Ange-Beato:
Featherine!
I have a request, not as the witch of ressurection
but as the bequeathed of an incident
Please do not make the Book of the One Truth public!

Featherine:
The key was yours from the very beginning!
It is your choice what to do with it.
But is that really what you wish?
By sealing the diary you are enclosing the One Truth in a catbox
That means allowing for endless imaginations to exist within it, like before
It means a GM can open a gameboard and play with the pieces at their whim
Do you want to encounter more wild ramblings like before?

Ange-Beato:
That doesn't change whether you open it or not...
Humans cannot perceive the Red Truth, therefore as long as there are people who doubt the authenticity of the diary, the illusion of the catbox will prevail.
Even though it really is the truth, it is not all that makes up this incident...it is nothing more than the results of it...
So instead of fanning the flames of interest by revealing the content of the diary...
I think they have been punished for their sins long enough through Beato's repeating games
So instead I want...
to let them rest as peaceful as possible.....

Featherine:
Very well, child of men...
I am the Witch of Spectatorship
And I will remain a spectator until you make your choice
Well then, Battler...
You have become the last gamemaster of this your final game!

Battler:
Looks like it
Your little pet seems to have retired

Featherine:
My miko might be forgetful like a cat, but she is also vengeful like one
Shouldn't you hurry and start the final ceremony of your game?

Battler:
Yes...
I should do that

Ange-Beato:
Final...
ceremony?

Battler:
Yes
With this it'll be all over

Featherine:
I shall write down the ending that will come to pass as an outsider

Mamon:
Ange-sama

Maria:
Ange

Battler:
Ange

Ange-Beato:
The key for the Book of One Truth
and also the first thing that my brother handed me in this game
!

Battler:
Now, Beato shall pose a simple question with two answers
With your answer you shall choose what door will open
Beyond this door lies your future path
Of course...
you may also do as you said at first, throw your life away and stay in this world
If you would like to do that, you don't need to answer and the doors shall never appear before you again

Ange (child flashback):
I want to be here forever!

Ange (Capital of Books flashback):
I simply want to proof that there are no miracles and then die!

Ange-Beato:
No...
Ask me!
Because I will choose the way that I'll go

Beato:
Kihihihi...be prepared! This is a hard one!

Battler:
Don't worry, it really isn't

Beato:
...Well then
Let's go
Have a good look at the palm of my left hand
There is nothing in there and no trickery to it?

Ange-Beato:
*nod*

Beato:
Then I will close it
Now then, look at my fingertip
and don't let it out of your sight!

Ange-Beato:
........her right hand

Battler:
Ready?
I will open my hand...
Is this a trick or magic?
That is the question I pose to you.

Ange-Beato:
Such a lousy trick...
Waving around your empty left hand and then replacing it with your right hand that holds a candy...
there's nothing special to this trick

(A Golden Butterfly appears and turns into Eva-Beato next to Eva)

Ange-Beato:
But...
like this I became able to use this magic as well!
Beato showed me this magic in order to make me happy
Now it is my turn to make somebody happy with it...

Ange (EP4 Golden Land):
I am the Witch of Ressurection, ANGE
There is nothing that I cannot ressurect

Ange-Beato:
No matter what form of magic...
Unless you understand the purpose and the seed of truth hidden within it, you cannot use it properly.
Without love it cannot be seen.
Thank you Beatrice!
This was the most beautiful magic!
I am the last witch of the Mariage Sorciere, ANGE
I shall become the witch to pass on White Magic

Battler:
Ange!
It's your prize from the Halloween party! Take it with you to the future and hold it dear!

Ange-Beato:
That time when...

Battler:
In the beginning...
I invited you to this game because I though you should never know the One Truth!
But more than just accepting the One Truth and our truth as well
you stand here now as a witch yourself.
You've really grown, Ange

Ange-Beato:
There might have been things that had better been left unknown...
But I...we humans are not gods...
So we do not know whether it cures us or kills us until we open the flask.
It is up to us to decide its worth after we opened it.
To mourn the things I learnt
or make the best of them
that is up to me now...
The real meaning lies in how I live my life, right?
Now there is only me left of us all
So I shall not throw away your true hearts!
In order to not have any regrets, I shall live my future!

Battler:
Yes
As you are right now, there is nothing you cannot overcome!
Well then
This is goodbye

Ange-Beato:
...........

Battler:
The eagle of Ushiromiya does not turn back!

Ange-Beato:
Right...
I'm sorry

Ange:
The eagle of Ushiromiya does not turn back...
but I will say this without turning back!
Thank you everyone!!
But this is not a farewell!!
I will be together with you forever!!!
Forever...together...!!!

Battler:
Yes, you will not turn back!
But we will always be right behind you!

Ange:
I will not say goodbye!
Well then,
See you.

I have to admit, I couldn't stop crying a little while reading this chapter. It's just so wonderful to have it come together so much more emotional in the manga...the pictures help of course. Even if it's just small things like Eva's reactions in several panels, or the fact that Rudolph and Kyrie had tears in their eyes when Ange held her speech...it just makes this whole experience so much rounder!!

[AuraTwilight]

Well, it's still not perfect, but it's making EP8 way more palpable atleast by explaining the emotional reasoning behind some of the controversial stuff in the original episode.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

And it's time for another chapter, though this time it's a rather short one.
Against expectations, they ended this chapter with Ange making her choice and so I'm wondering whether next months chapter will actually end the main-portion of the game or if there will be another break between the Ikuko/Battler scenes and then Ange's final choice in 1998...or maybe if we're even gonna get more original content.

Spoiler for Chapter 34 Ange's Choice:

Battler:
You did it, Ange

Ange-Beato:
Thanks to all of you!
The eagle of Ushiromiya is no longer one-winged
With the wings of our hearts it can finally fly wherever it wants to...

Erika:
!
My..
My master...
MY MASTEEEEER!!

Bern (cat):
Me...
Mew...

Ange-Beato:
Don't worry, just like your truth cannot hurt mine, I cannot harm your truth either

Battler:
Now she's nothing more than a dust-rag, I see?

Beato:
We should at least give ourself the pleasure of torturing her a little!

Ange-Beato:
Wait, Beato!

Beato:
Hm?!

Ange-Beato:
Don't be so overfamiliar with my big brother!
It's not like I ever acknowledged your relationship!

Beato:
You foolish thing! It was you who brough me back to life!
It's already too late! Me and my lovely company will torture you for the rest of your life!
And you will have to look at me and Battler making out all the time!
AAAAAAH?!

Ange-Beato:
My, this magic of ressurection is mighty practical! It even has an on-off switch!

Battler:
Like a light bulb

Beato:
Battleeeer, Ange is mean to meeee!!

Sakutaro:
Ange, you are the best! Uryuu!

Mamon:
Ange-sama! Congratulations on attaining the magic of ressurection!!

Ange-Beato:
Sakutaro! Mamon!

Mamon:
So this means
That we can finally be together forever, right?!

Ange-Beato:
Mamon...

Mamon (flashback):
Your first and final friend!!

Ange (flashback):
Sakutaro is nothing but a toy made of cloth and thread!
Shut up, you're an illusion!!!!

Ange-Beato:
Yes...that's right
The anti-magic toxin has no influence on it anymore...
Because...
you are all in here
Together with me for all time!

Stakes:
Ange-sama!!
Ange-sama!!

Ange-Beato:
Wha...wow...wow
Wha....

Lucifer:
Oops

Mamon:
Ange-sama has gained a few pounds over time

Ange-Beato:
MAMON!
!

Featherine:
What a splendid Golden Truth, Lady Ange-Beatrice!
To celebrate this miracle, I am bestowing upon you the title of Lady
The story you wove was quite a splendid one!

Ange-Beato:
Featherine...

Featherine:
No need to be so on guard
I am here to congratulate you
I am a mere bystander and have no intention to fight you
I am grateful that you did not take the life of my miko when you defeated her
I would be quite bored if my little kitten were to die

Ange-Beato:
.....
I will not forgive you after killing Lambdadelta

Featherine:
Very well...
To show my respect for your story, I promise to rewrite the final stand of Lady Lambdadelta
How about her having to leave the gameboard after being defeated, and now gobbling up popcorn up in the spectator-rows?

Ange-Beato:
Re...really?
....I'm so relieved...

Featherine:
With this the key has once again made it's way back to you

Ange-Beato:
Featherine!
I have a request, not as the witch of ressurection
but as the bequeathed of an incident
Please do not make the Book of the One Truth public!

Featherine:
The key was yours from the very beginning!
It is your choice what to do with it.
But is that really what you wish?
By sealing the diary you are enclosing the One Truth in a catbox
That means allowing for endless imaginations to exist within it, like before
It means a GM can open a gameboard and play with the pieces at their whim
Do you want to encounter more wild ramblings like before?

Ange-Beato:
That doesn't change whether you open it or not...
Humans cannot perceive the Red Truth, therefore as long as there are people who doubt the authenticity of the diary, the illusion of the catbox will prevail.
Even though it really is the truth, it is not all that makes up this incident...it is nothing more than the results of it...
So instead of fanning the flames of interest by revealing the content of the diary...
I think they have been punished for their sins long enough through Beato's repeating games
So instead I want...
to let them rest as peaceful as possible.....

Featherine:
Very well, child of men...
I am the Witch of Spectatorship
And I will remain a spectator until you make your choice
Well then, Battler...
You have become the last gamemaster of this your final game!

Battler:
Looks like it
Your little pet seems to have retired

Featherine:
My miko might be forgetful like a cat, but she is also vengeful like one
Shouldn't you hurry and start the final ceremony of your game?

Battler:
Yes...
I should do that

Ange-Beato:
Final...
ceremony?

Battler:
Yes
With this it'll be all over

Featherine:
I shall write down the ending that will come to pass as an outsider

Mamon:
Ange-sama

Maria:
Ange

Battler:
Ange

Ange-Beato:
The key for the Book of One Truth
and also the first thing that my brother handed me in this game
!

Battler:
Now, Beato shall pose a simple question with two answers
With your answer you shall choose what door will open
Beyond this door lies your future path
Of course...
you may also do as you said at first, throw your life away and stay in this world
If you would like to do that, you don't need to answer and the doors shall never appear before you again

Ange (child flashback):
I want to be here forever!

Ange (Capital of Books flashback):
I simply want to proof that there are no miracles and then die!

Ange-Beato:
No...
Ask me!
Because I will choose the way that I'll go

Beato:
Kihihihi...be prepared! This is a hard one!

Battler:
Don't worry, it really isn't

Beato:
...Well then
Let's go
Have a good look at the palm of my left hand
There is nothing in there and no trickery to it?

Ange-Beato:
*nod*

Beato:
Then I will close it
Now then, look at my fingertip
and don't let it out of your sight!

Ange-Beato:
........her right hand

Battler:
Ready?
I will open my hand...
Is this a trick or magic?
That is the question I pose to you.

Ange-Beato:
Such a lousy trick...
Waving around your empty left hand and then replacing it with your right hand that holds a candy...
there's nothing special to this trick

(A Golden Butterfly appears and turns into Eva-Beato next to Eva)

Ange-Beato:
But...
like this I became able to use this magic as well!
Beato showed me this magic in order to make me happy
Now it is my turn to make somebody happy with it...

Ange (EP4 Golden Land):
I am the Witch of Ressurection, ANGE
There is nothing that I cannot ressurect

Ange-Beato:
No matter what form of magic...
Unless you understand the purpose and the seed of truth hidden within it, you cannot use it properly.
Without love it cannot be seen.
Thank you Beatrice!
This was the most beautiful magic!
I am the last witch of the Mariage Sorciere, ANGE
I shall become the witch to pass on White Magic

Battler:
Ange!
It's your prize from the Halloween party! Take it with you to the future and hold it dear!

Ange-Beato:
That time when...

Battler:
In the beginning...
I invited you to this game because I though you should never know the One Truth!
But more than just accepting the One Truth and our truth as well
you stand here now as a witch yourself.
You've really grown, Ange

Ange-Beato:
There might have been things that had better been left unknown...
But I...we humans are not gods...
So we do not know whether it cures us or kills us until we open the flask.
It is up to us to decide its worth after we opened it.
To mourn the things I learnt
or make the best of them
that is up to me now...
The real meaning lies in how I live my life, right?
Now there is only me left of us all
So I shall not throw away your true hearts!
In order to not have any regrets, I shall live my future!

Battler:
Yes
As you are right now, there is nothing you cannot overcome!
Well then
This is goodbye

Ange-Beato:
...........

Battler:
The eagle of Ushiromiya does not turn back!

Ange-Beato:
Right...
I'm sorry

Ange:
The eagle of Ushiromiya does not turn back...
but I will say this without turning back!
Thank you everyone!!
But this is not a farewell!!
I will be together with you forever!!!
Forever...together...!!!

Battler:
Yes, you will not turn back!
But we will always be right behind you!

Ange:
I will not say goodbye!
Well then,
See you.

I have to admit, I couldn't stop crying a little while reading this chapter. It's just so wonderful to have it come together so much more emotional in the manga...the pictures help of course. Even if it's just small things like Eva's reactions in several panels, or the fact that Rudolph and Kyrie had tears in their eyes when Ange held her speech...it just makes this whole experience so much rounder!!

First of all as usual thank you a lot for the translation!
And as usual I'm impressed by how the manga makes a better work compared to the VN even when it's only in its script format.

I'm a bit sad they had cut the part in which Battler told Ange to go easy on Beato but everything else is rather good!
The reunion with Ange, Sakutarou and Mammon is much more emotional now when before it felt just like people were partying and that was it.
I liked how it was Featherine who decided to change the plot so that Lambda wasn't killed instead than just claiming that Ange had revived her somewhere.
It shows how Ange had managed to impress Featherine enough to change her mind (and simply put I didn't like the 'oh she was revived somewhere' thing).

I also liked how they developed the whole thing about revealing the truth or not.
How they made it Ange's decision and how they explained why Ange took that decision.

I love how they mentioned that Ange might decide not to chose and just die there as she wanted and showed that Ange instead decided to chose and live in the future and I also like how Battler admitted he didn't want Ange to know the one truth and wanted to use that game to stop her from knowing it.
The exchange with Beato claiming the trick is hard and Battler reassuring Ange that actually it's not.
I like the explanation about why Ange chose to say that it was magic even though she knew it was not.

I love the references to Ep 4, both here and previously.

And I love Ange's speech.

I've to admit the ending of Ep 8 in VN version left me pretty cold but here I was touched as well. Really, Umineko ep 8 would have been much better if it had been like that from the beginning.

Also out of curiosity did they said when Ep 8 is going to end? I know that Ep 7 should end next month but I wonder how many months of ep 8 we still have. I hope a lot as this would mean a lot of extra material... otherwise ep 8 is going to end rather soon...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I also liked how they developed the whole thing about revealing the truth or not.
How they made it Ange's decision and how they explained why Ange took that decision.

What I am still confused about, and was already confused about in the VN though, is the aspect of the key. In this chapter Featherine even mentions that whether the diary is made public is up to Ange, because she is the holder of the key.
This either means that Featherine really is Ikuko (in a gameboard within gameboard within gameboard sense) or there is some new revelation they are planting in this chapter. I always wondered why Ikuko would suddenly decide not to reveal the diary, unless there was a prior event that actually let up to actually making people doubt the diary even more...like a conversation between Ange and Ikuko (since we also know that Ange is the first in the world to ever read the diary).

I love the references to Ep 4, both here and previously.

Totally agree here! Reading EP4 now is really interesting concerning many of the reactions from Ange in comparison and relation to her overarching self.

Also out of curiosity did they said when Ep 8 is going to end? I know that Ep 7 should end next month but I wonder how many months of ep 8 we still have.

Nothing has been announced as far as I know, but I guess it will be a good 4-5 chapters more. Next chapter being Ikuko not revealing the diary and probably the flashback (maybe split in two), the chapter after that Ange's departure, then the Tea Party (if they don't leave it for the tankobon) and then the ???.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

What I am still confused about, and was already confused about in the VN though, is the aspect of the key. In this chapter Featherine even mentions that whether the diary is made public is up to Ange, because she is the holder of the key.
This either means that Featherine really is Ikuko (in a gameboard within gameboard within gameboard sense) or there is some new revelation they are planting in this chapter. I always wondered why Ikuko would suddenly decide not to reveal the diary, unless there was a prior event that actually let up to actually making people doubt the diary even more...like a conversation between Ange and Ikuko (since we also know that Ange is the first in the world to ever read the diary).

I take that the idea of 'holder of the key' means that it's up to Ange to decide if to reveal the truth of the diary or not.
My best guess is that actually, when Ange was about to jump off the building, she had already found and read the diary in Eva's hospital room.
Therefore she's the first to read it and the diary was in her possession so it was up to her to decide what to do with it.
If she leaves the diary there a nurse can find it and sell it to Ikuko later on.
If she kills herself someone else can find the diary and make it public.
If she leaves the diary around again others can find it and make it public.

If we take the meta as symbolic of what had happened in Prime Ange found the diary and read it, then ended up forgetting it (maybe out of shock) and when she came back it wasn't there anymore. At the time Alliance was written Tohya had no idea Ange had already read the diary, maybe he and Ikuko hadn't bought it yet.

Ikuko and Tohya end up owning the diary. I thought the idea of exposing the truth was a plot to get Ange to contact them after Ange had disappeared but maybe that wasn't the case. Maybe Tohya and Ikuko had a moment in which they had thought it was better to reveal the truth and Ange wrote them asking not to reveal it. At least... that's how I take the fact that Ange begged Featherine not to reveal the truth. Or maybe it was just that Tohya and Ikuko considered revealing the truth, maybe thinking Ange had died and therefore there was no one to protect and then decided against it, thinking it would do no good to Ange... or deciding to hope that Ange was still alive and that therefore they would keep on sealing the truth.
After all the scene in which Eva and Battler close the door was supposed to be simbolic of how it was them who closed the catbox. Eva kept the truth for herself till she died... Tohya apparently didn't remember the truth... but if he were to read it he might have gained that knowledge again and decided not to share it.

We would need to have a timeline in which we were told when the party to reveal the truth was made and when Ange disappeared to be able to guess more.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Totally agree here! Reading EP4 now is really interesting concerning many of the reactions from Ange in comparison and relation to her overarching self.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Nothing has been announced as far as I know, but I guess it will be a good 4-5 chapters more. Next chapter being Ikuko not revealing the diary and probably the flashback (maybe split in two), the chapter after that Ange's departure, then the Tea Party (if they don't leave it for the tankobon) and then the ???.

Prior to this chapter I made a list of the stuffs they still have to show... removing this chapter from the count, assuming they'll add nothing and that they won't show the trick ending as an extra (sort of like Bern peering in a fragment to see another possible ending) my couting is now of 5 to 8 (6 to 9 with the trick ending) possible missing chapters.

1A) Eva, Battler and Erika saying their goodbye

1B) Hachijo tells she won't reveal the truth (which might be in the same chapter as Eva, Battler and Erika saying their goodbye)

2) Trick ending (if they include it)

3) Battler & Beato leave the submarine base

4) Ange doesn't jump but leave for a travel

5) Lambda, Bern and Erika spend some quality time together

6A) Ange becomes a writer

6B) Ange and Tohya meet (which might be in the same chapter as the previous)

6C) Tohya goes to the orphanage (which might be in the same chapter as the previous)

Of course I wouldn't mind if they were to add more material... like showing what really happened to Battler that day... and a bit more about Tohya as well.

LOL, I also seriously doubt something about the letter Battler might have written to Shannon will be revealed... but still it would be nice if this point and how was Battler's life through those 6 years he spent away from Rokkenjima were... but honestly I'm pretty confident the manga doesn't plan to touch this topic... ;_;

[jTiKey]

Using the same methods Sayo uses to solve the crimes, Rosa can do the same.

We know from the beggining about Rosa's "Evil Witch" persona. So, Rosa dies as a character, but the Evil Witch never does.

So both theories are legit, thus no one is the single truth, just like the 5th game ending. The "Natsuhi culprit theory" wasn't unique, thus it wasn't the truth.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Using the same methods Sayo uses to solve the crimes, Rosa can do the same.

We know from the beggining about Rosa's "Evil Witch" persona. So, Rosa dies as a character, but the Evil Witch never does.

So both theories are legit, thus no one is the single truth, just like the 5th game ending. The "Natsuhi culprit theory" wasn't unique, thus it wasn't the truth.

In theory it could work but in game you face all the sort of troubles as:
- Ep 1 Battler saw Rosa's corpse. He recognized it as such. Its identity as Rosa was assured by red. In regards to Shannon instead he didn't see her corpse, he was only told it was also there in a place out of his line of sight.
- Ep 2 The trick isn't really needed as Rosa survives till the end of the game and her fate is unknown.
- Ep 3 It's confirmed in red that Rosa's cause of death was a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence. In Shannon and Kanon's case the cause of the death is never confirmed in red so that it can be 'Sayo discharged that personality'. In Rosa's case here we're confirmed her body was stabbed by the medulla oblongata. Can the black Witch survive after such a stab? I fear not.
- Ep 4 Battler witnesses Rosa's corpse. She could have used Sayo's same trick but differently from Sayo she doesn't have a convenient hideout for her gun. Also how did Kanon's body disappeared for the second time (the first was in ep 2)?

So even if you theoretically can apply that theory to Rosa as well then you end up crashing against a net of red, in the same way as it happened to Battler when he tried to apply that theory to Jessica.

If your theory can't work it doesn't rise to the level of truth and therefore can't coesist with the Sayotrice theory ergo the truth remains 1, the one given by Ryukishi.

[Mali]

Did you refer the manga version?
I think Rosa could really did the murders in Ep1 if I regard the vn...
For Ep3 Rosa could poisoned somebody before she died. It is easier to explain the whole situation in the mansion if she has an accomplice who stakes the sacrifices.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Mali

Did you refer the manga version?
I think Rosa could really did the murders in Ep1 if I regard the vn...
For Ep3 Rosa could poisoned somebody before she died. It is easier to explain the whole situation in the mansion if she has an accomplice who stakes the sacrifices.

No, EP1 was like that in the VN as well. Battler listed the people he saw in the shed and in EP4 Beato said in red:

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

and since the corpses Battler saw where not in a condition where you could say "they pretend to be dead, actually they still live!" there is no way around it: She was dead and could not have commited murders later on.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Did you refer the manga version?
I think Rosa could really did the murders in Ep1 if I regard the vn...
For Ep3 Rosa could poisoned somebody before she died. It is easier to explain the whole situation in the mansion if she has an accomplice who stakes the sacrifices.

I read the Vn and the manga version. To my shame I've also watched the anime.
Anyway in the VN Battler stated he saw 5 corpses and told us who were the owners of said corpses. The only 'corpse' he couldn't identify was Shannon because he didn't saw her. He was told her corpse was there.
Ergo I'm not really sure how Rosa, being a corpse in the first twilight, can go around making the following murders. Zombies anyone?

Now Ep 3. Rosa died at the second twilight. The cause of her death is given when her body is found alongside with the fact she's dead therefore we can't say she died later. Ergo at best she was the accomplice not the culprit as the culprit should be the mastermind behind all this and the one who continues to kill.

[GoldenLand]

I'm continually surprised by how much more sense the ep 8 manga makes than the VN.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Ergo I'm not really sure how Rosa, being a corpse in the first twilight, can go around making the following murders. Zombies anyone

Hey, zombies are possible, as long as you accept the witch. Beatrice can raise zombies and have them commit murders for her any time.

I'm probably one of the few people who still like the anime. As an adaptation of Umineko, it really is deeply flawed in terms of fully conveying characterisation and the mysteries, but I find it an enjoyable series nonetheless.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'm probably one of the few people who still like the anime. As an adaptation of Umineko, it really is deeply flawed in terms of fully conveying characterisation and the mysteries, but I find it an enjoyable series nonetheless.

Just alone the severe lack of Tsubasa, Dread of the Grave and Dreamenddischarger make it a very bad experience for a VN reader. Though I am happy I saw it BEFORE the VN, else I would have been very disappointed. But if you instead read the VN afterwards, you will get awestruck by the awesome music and think: "Why DEEN?" Well the fact that I wanted to see how it continues, compared to F/sn where I dropped it after ep2 or ep3, showed that it at the very least is not the "worst" work by DEEN.