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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 02
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 36 19.78%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 49 26.92%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 43 23.63%
7 out of 10: Good... 32 17.58%
6 out of 10: Average... 16 8.79%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 1 0.55%
4 out of 10: Poor... 2 1.10%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 0.55%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 2 1.10%
Voters: 182. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-17, 16:17   Link #401
Forever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
I thought it was just a part of the system, where your HP bar is shown bigger than the people in your party? Have to go back and check Kirito's screen when they first formed a party...
Oh ya. Went back and saw it. So we still dont know whose HP is higher then?
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Old 2012-07-17, 16:17   Link #402
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
A/C/F)
You cant have it both ways. Either
a) the majority of the population is hiding
or
b) the majority is playing it safe.
If they are hiding its hard to imagine the respawn rate being the limiting factor.
If they are playing it safe, they would form up into large groups where its much harder to get killed and stick to low level monsters.. the equivalent of sharing.
And given monsters respawn resources aren't scarce. People playing it safe would simply wait until the first group figures out the boss then wait for the next group.. or the next and grind levels till they feel ready. Then just stick to killing stuff that cant OHKO you. Not to mention this would form longer term parties like guilds/factions or whatever their version is in this game. And groups can easily empty out large areas to do exploring.
That doesn't change one probleme: Experience -not-scaling regarding the party that defeated the monster. Assuming you have everyone turtling together as parties, it will takes -forever- to have a sizable amount of players being able to defeat stronger mobs.
This is the very reason why you cannot lurk around the safe zone if you want to strengthen yourself, moreso if you can't remain with people you don't know.

Also, the fact the boar respawns quickly doesn't mean it is the case for every mobs. A lot of MMO uses different kind of periods for specific mobs depending of the level range and area.
Quote:
d) So far neither episode have given ANY indication there are traps of any sort. And given that he's had a MONTH to spend on the first level. Like you said in a) Kirito has most likely reached the saturation point. There should be absolutely nothing short of the actual dungeon boss itself that would stop him from being able to explore. Yet he's not outside of town exploring in ep2. Hes sitting in town waiting on a discussion of boss tactics (that he doesn't know will turn into an announcement that the boss room has found). Not to mention, play episode 1 again to the spot where Kirito talks to Klein about going to the second village. You will see 6 villages marked in red dots. The map covers probably 80% of the first floor. and you can CLEARLY see there's a round green shaded object on the top right hand side. Obviously THE only dungeon on the map. And he access the map via his menu. I'm pretty sure more than one other person has figured out how to use the map. Not to mention start of ep2 you see the outline structure of the dungeon/boss section and then again after they walk through the forest... to the giant pillar of stone/whatever that the camera pans up on.
Except dungeon should only be explored as a party, to which Kirito just -can't-. As the episode implied, parties have to be formed to take care of just the adds alone (which are "punny" in comparison to the Kobold Lord), so having Kirito lurking in a dungeon alone is extremely dangerous, and it isn't like he is an assassin class with stealth.

Also pay attention to the fact dungeon are not your usual "instance" used by recent MMO: SAO system is more similar to global MMO using a single server for everything, which means boss and the likes serve as strong checkpoints for the -whole- player population of the floor (hence, it does not respawn and it sure explains why there is a unique bonus item upon last attack).
Therefore, the number of people requiring for just scouting would be more than a mere party, even moreso for a game that can lead you to perma game over.

Another point you discarded weirdly fast: the fact there wasn't any obvious trap shown doesn't mean there wasn't any. Diabel used a party to scout considering his words, and the anime made a short cut so the raid was in front of the boss door, which is not easy to achieve, otherwise it wouldn't have taken a month.

Finally, the map is deceiving since the floor itself is extremely huge and round, which means you cannot deduce there isn't any other dungeon in the whole circumference of the floor.
Quote:
e) PVP needn't be fatal. Just dangerous enough to force someone away from their goal. They just need to hurt them to a point where it would be dangerous to either continue fighting themselves or the monster they are after.
Except that you aren't in mere PVP environement: any mistake can write someone off from the game and IRL altogether. Having this problem in mind, some people can just turn too excited and start on a spree, having the impression they are "not really" killing them. There are common instances that some people beat others under mere anger, and killed them before they even realized it IRL. So having even less "real life" impression obviously inhibit the impression you are killing them for real.
Quote:
Oh and watching it again.. i found Diabel's death scene to be kinda stupid. Kirito obviously has a potion in his hand.. but doesnt use it.
Then again with Kibao blaming the betas (didn't we go over this at the start of the episode? Betas wrote the guide book. Whats more Diabel says it the latest edition meaning someone managed to revise it, also implying people can share information via the guidebook updating it like a wiki.
That's quite easy to understand then: potions are -not- instantaneous, which should explain why Agil bought time for Kirito, so that he -recovers- (despite Kirito was -still- in the green zone of his HP). If that kind of recovery needs time already, being in lethal zone would definitely be too late for a mere potion to work.
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Old 2012-07-17, 16:31   Link #403
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
I thought it was just a part of the system, where your HP bar is shown bigger than the people in your party? Have to go back and check Kirito's screen when they first formed a party...
You're right. From Kirito's POV, his HP bar is bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
A/C/F)
You cant have it both ways. Either
a) the majority of the population is hiding
or
b) the majority is playing it safe.
If they are hiding its hard to imagine the respawn rate being the limiting factor.
If they are playing it safe, they would form up into large groups where its much harder to get killed and stick to low level monsters.. the equivalent of sharing.
Except even a small portion of the population is enough to overfarm the area around Starting City. The game wasn't designed to have thousands of people cowering there.

Quote:
And given monsters respawn resources aren't scarce. People playing it safe would simply wait until the first group figures out the boss then wait for the next group.. or the next and grind levels till they feel ready. Then just stick to killing stuff that cant OHKO you. Not to mention this would form longer term parties like guilds/factions or whatever their version is in this game. And groups can easily empty out large areas to do exploring.
Large groups aren't that safe. Especially in a dungeon. People would get in each other's way, and there'd always be the risk of getting picked off if you're at the periphery of the group.

Quote:
d) So far neither episode have given ANY indication there are traps of any sort. And given that he's had a MONTH to spend on the first level. Like you said in a) Kirito has most likely reached the saturation point. There should be absolutely nothing short of the actual dungeon boss itself that would stop him from being able to explore.
Except, you know, groups of monsters who can still kill him if he acts like an idiot.

Quote:
Yet he's not outside of town exploring in ep2. Hes sitting in town waiting on a discussion of boss tactics (that he doesn't know will turn into an announcement that the boss room has found). Not to mention, play episode 1 again to the spot where Kirito talks to Klein about going to the second village. You will see 6 villages marked in red dots. The map covers probably 80% of the first floor. and you can CLEARLY see there's a round green shaded object on the top right hand side. Obviously THE only dungeon on the map. And he access the map via his menu. I'm pretty sure more than one other person has figured out how to use the map. Not to mention start of ep2 you see the outline structure of the dungeon/boss section and then again after they walk through the forest... to the giant pillar of stone/whatever that the camera pans up on.
It's not the same town they started it. It's one closer to the dungeon. And obviously he can't fight 24/7. Though rather than an actual break, he was waiting for the meeting, which he knew would be there (like everyone. Or they wouldn't have shown up, obviously). Even if he hadn't heard about the boss room being found, he know what the meeting would be about: a strategy to clear the first floor. Why wouldn't he be there?

Quote:
e) PVP needn't be fatal. Just dangerous enough to force someone away from their goal. They just need to hurt them to a point where it would be dangerous to either continue fighting themselves or the monster they are after.
Yeah, and? Where are you going with that? I mean, getting stabbed needn't be fatal, but it's still something to take seriously.

Quote:
Oh and watching it again.. i found Diabel's death scene to be kinda stupid. Kirito obviously has a potion in his hand.. but doesnt use it.
Wouldn't have saved Diabel.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:17   Link #404
DXMichael
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Woah, quite the character turn there.

From 'I need to stay a lone wolf but be helpful and kind' to 'Realising that I should be helping everyone and suddenly turning into an arrogant guy' just like that I'm interested in what the next episode will show us. Perhaps it was an act? I wouldn't be surprised if he used the knowledge he knows to his advantage to keep him alive. He's pretty much saying "I know more than you, so keep me alive and i'll let you have some of my knowledge".

Maybe he really is just arrogant and everything up until that point was an act I myself doubt that though.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:35   Link #405
Swordstriker21
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Originally Posted by DXMichael View Post
Woah, quite the character turn there.

From 'I need to stay a lone wolf but be helpful and kind' to 'Realising that I should be helping everyone and suddenly turning into an arrogant guy' just like that I'm interested in what the next episode will show us. Perhaps it was an act? I wouldn't be surprised if he used the knowledge he knows to his advantage to keep him alive. He's pretty much saying "I know more than you, so keep me alive and i'll let you have some of my knowledge".

Maybe he really is just arrogant and everything up until that point was an act I myself doubt that though.
Well considering there have been several "show not tell" moments regarding his behavior like remembering Diabels death when the fight broke out and thinking "This is bad... at this rate..." then swallowing hard before he put on his show strongly suggests it was just an act to placate the volatile situation between the regular players and beta testers. So now the only guys that are going to be hated are the opportunist beaters and regular beta testers aren't going to be hated on sight.
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Old 2012-07-17, 19:05   Link #406
Lantern
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
A/C/F)
Spoiler for length:


The Diabel vs Potion dilemma is a dead horse dug up from grave, beaten and beaten to the end of days, rezzed up and beaten to death again, so I'm not gonna comment anymore on that as I'm sure others will gladly jump at the topic.

>> So far neither episode have given ANY indication there are traps of any sort.

I can give you one word: lolz.


>> guilds/factions

Mmmmmm.


>> Map, again

That very map you keep talking about in ep1, is just a world map. You're right about the icons. The red icons are the village on the world map of the first floor. And the green icon up at the top right is the dungeon aka that tower you're referring to in ep2. It's a dungeon tower that serves as both a bridge and an obstacle to the next floor.

Once you enter that dungeon, it has its own set of map and floors that leads to the boss room. Kirito obviously does NOT have that map in ep1. That dungeon is what needs mapping. That dungeon is what players have been discussing during the meeting in ep2. That dungeon is what the front line players have been working on. And that dungeon, as you can see by looking from outside, is a massive structure. The boss room is NOT at the bottom of the tower where you can just walk in and initiate the raid. It's just like the typical MMORPG we have out there: you enter the dungeon and explore till you meet the boss at the end. In the SAO case, the players are essentially exploring and finding their way to the "end of the 1st floor dungeon" aka the "top of the tower" which is NOT "an elevator that zooms you to the next floor". Once again, if you have any experience of playing an MMO, the concept of SAO's dungeon is fairly obvious. And if you don't, now you know.


>> Food
It has indeed implied that you get better food if you fight. But think about it. Crappy food + 100% Safety vs Better food + Risking your life. I think the choice is kinda obvious. And you've pretty much answered your own question. If these players are forced to fight, they will indeed venture to the easy mob area. And when everybody does that, there is competition. (Which is why Kirito hurried off in ep1.) However, they have zero reason to go beyond that to challenge tougher mobs, let alone to participate in the front line. They are essentially hiding from any real combat. Which continues to the next point.


>> People playing it safe would simply wait until the first group figures out the boss then wait for the next group.. or the next and grind levels till they feel ready.

I will remind you again, the front line is extremely dangerous, and everyone knows it. And in case you didn't notice, even for the elites in ep2, the boss raid isn't exactly what you'd call safe. Act stupid, you die. Panic, you die. Mess up parrying, you die. Even our ever almighty Kirito, got hit square in the face for about 2/3 of his health. Playing safe in SAO means staying out of any risk that can get you killed.

Last edited by Lantern; 2012-07-19 at 13:23. Reason: Fixed
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Old 2012-07-17, 20:59   Link #407
xenapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantern View Post


The Diabel vs Potion dilemma is a dead horse dug up from grave, beaten and beaten to the end of days, rezzed up and beaten to death again, so I'm not gonna comment anymore on that as I'm sure others will gladly jump at the topic.

>> So far neither episode have given ANY indication there are traps of any sort.

I can give you one word: lolz.


>> guilds/factions

Mmmmmm.


>> Map, again

That very map you keep talking about in ep1, is just a world map. You're right about the icons. The red icons are the village on the world map of the first floor. And the green icon up at the top right is the dungeon aka that tower you're referring to in ep2. It's a dungeon tower that serves as both a bridge and an obstacle to the next floor.

Once you enter that dungeon, it has its own set of map and floors that leads to the boss room. Kirito obviously does NOT have that map in ep1. That dungeon is what needs mapping. That dungeon is what players have been discussing during the meeting in ep2. That dungeon is what the front line players have been working on. And that dungeon, as you can see by looking from outside, is a massive structure. The boss room is NOT at the bottom of the tower where you can just walk in and initiate the raid. It's just like the typical MMORPG we have out there: you enter the dungeon and explore till you meet the boss at the end. In the SAO case, the players are essentially exploring and finding their way to the "end of the 1st floor dungeon" aka the "top of the tower" which is NOT "an elevator that zooms you to the next floor". Once again, if you have any experience of playing an MMO, the concept of SAO's dungeon is fairly obvious. And if you don't, now you know.


>> Food
It has indeed implied that you get better food if you fight. But think about it. Crappy food + 100% Safety vs Better food + Risking your life. I think the choice is kinda obvious. And you've pretty much answered your own question. If these players are forced to fight, they will indeed venture to the easy mob area. And when everybody does that, there is competition. (Which is why Kirito hurried off in ep1.) However, they have zero reason to go beyond that to challenge tougher mobs, let alone to participate in the front line. They are essentially hiding from any real combat. Which continues to the next point.


>> People playing it safe would simply wait until the first group figures out the boss then wait for the next group.. or the next and grind levels till they feel ready.

I will remind you again, the front line is extremely dangerous, and everyone knows it. And in case you didn't notice, even for the elites in ep2, the boss raid isn't exactly what you'd call safe. Act stupid, you die. Panic, you die. Mess up parrying, you die. Even our ever almighty Kirito, got hit square in the face for about 2/3 of his health.

Playing safe in SAO means staying in safe zone as much as possible. [mod edit: spoilers removed]
Map: Yes. it was obvious to me from the start but you dont seem to understand that. You simply constantly assume I'm entirely ignorant of how MMOs work. It's getting kinda old. Kirito went up 8 floors during the beta. Did you notice he said he got further than anyone else? It implies he managed to solo even the 7th level boss cause no one else was able to follow him up. Combine that with the fact that hes been on floor 1 for a month. Hes had plenty of time to cap out his XP/gold/stats until diminishing returns means he gets practically nothing from killing stuff down here. He's overleveled AND experienced. If anything hes just being super cautious not exploring/attempting the boss by himself. Furthermore, its not like he was the only one in the beta who managed to get up floors. there were others like Diabel who can recognize the door to the boss room without going into it as we saw in this EP. Where are the beta testers that grouped before? Diabel obviously CHOSE to take the risk of a brand new party for the chance at getting the special item on the last attack since the new players would have no idea about that but I'm sure more of the experienced betas would have stuck together if anything just to stay ahead of the front line a little. Even if they expected changes to stuff like the boss' final attack routine nothing stops them from exploring the dungeon long enough to find the telltale signs of the boss room, then tell others to try it first or go with them. I just find it hard to believe the only group that made it that far is 20ish new players led by one beta tester though Agil also looks fairly experienced. But usually in every MMO theres a group of top 20-50 people that basically form the top guild/whatever... and stop at nothing to lead the pack which is where typical lone-wolves like Kirito will join even if its just for group -required kills like dungeon bosses. You also see that in the little interaction post boss fight with Asuna where he tells her to join a guild if shes invited by someone she trusts.... and there's a limit on what you can do as a solo player. so he knows those limits already and it basically implies he's grouped up with whatever elite player group there is before during the beta if not after as well.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-17 at 21:22.
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Old 2012-07-17, 21:50   Link #408
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
Map: Yes. it was obvious to me from the start but you dont seem to understand that. You simply constantly assume I'm entirely ignorant of how MMOs work. It's getting kinda old. Kirito went up 8 floors during the beta. Did you notice he said he got further than anyone else?
Did you notice that Kirito was putting on an act? You should not assume that his boasts in that scene are an accurate account of what happened in the beta test.

Quote:
Combine that with the fact that hes been on floor 1 for a month. Hes had plenty of time to cap out his XP/gold/stats until diminishing returns means he gets practically nothing from killing stuff down here. He's overleveled AND experienced.
You're seriously underestimating the difficulty level of a game where you don't have multiple lives.

Quote:
If anything hes just being super cautious not exploring/attempting the boss by himself. Furthermore, its not like he was the only one in the beta who managed to get up floors. there were others like Diabel who can recognize the door to the boss room without going into it as we saw in this EP.
Diabel said his party had found the boss chamber the day before -- that was why he called the meeting of all the dungeon crawlers.

Quote:
Where are the beta testers that grouped before?
Dead. Being more cautious than Kirito. Learning craft skills so that they can support the front line. Sitting in the Starting City scared. Training guilds.
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Old 2012-07-17, 22:04   Link #409
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
You're seriously underestimating the difficulty level of a game where you don't have multiple lives.
This, I can't emphasize enough how some people just seems to pass this off as if it's no big deal.

How many people would play Call of Duty or Battlefield the way they normally do if they would die for real? Even Leeroy himself wouldn't be so eager to... well, LEEROY, if it means he can actually die
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Old 2012-07-17, 23:03   Link #410
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
This, I can't emphasize enough how some people just seems to pass this off as if it's no big deal.

How many people would play Call of Duty or Battlefield the way they normally do if they would die for real? Even Leeroy himself wouldn't be so eager to... well, LEEROY, if it means he can actually die
pretty much this. in cod or any game with one life, you would pretty much hide out until your absolutely sure you need to

this is only worse in the case of this game, with your physical life at stake.
though im beginning to understand now why they took out magic in this game. no one would be fighting physically anymore
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Old 2012-07-18, 00:50   Link #411
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
It implies he managed to solo even the 7th level boss cause no one else was able to follow him up.
It shouldn't be possible to solo a boss. And even if he had (which would mean, somehow, become stronger faster than 50 other beta testers put together...) it wouldn't change a thing: if the 8th floor was open to him, it was open to everyone.

Just like now, the 2nd floor's open to all players, whether they participated in the boss battle or not.
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Old 2012-07-18, 00:53   Link #412
supermegasonic
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It shouldn't be possible to solo a boss. And even if he had (which would mean, somehow, become stronger faster than 50 other beta testers put together...) it wouldn't change a thing: if the 8th floor was open to him, it was open to everyone.

Just like now, the 2nd floor's open to all players, whether they participated in the boss battle or not.
wait? is that really the case? that makes this game seem a bit too easy.
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Old 2012-07-18, 01:11   Link #413
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
wait? is that really the case? that makes this game seem a bit too easy.
Yes that's the case. It's said that when someone killed a boss in a floor, next floor will be opened to everyone. Just like Kayaba said when someone cleared lvl 100, everyone will be able to log out.
How would it make the game "too easy"? You still need someone to kill the boss in order to advance to next floor (or clear the game). Worse, it can lower number of people trying to kill bosses since they can just play it safe and hope someone else would kill the boss for them.
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Old 2012-07-18, 04:12   Link #414
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Not to mention that enemies on higher floors will STILL have a higher level, whether you killed a boss or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
stuff

Resources ARE scarce, players DON'T feel pain, and the boss room WASN'T found until that point.

Oh, and he declined the potion because it probably wouldn't have saved him anyways.

Last edited by Dengar; 2012-07-18 at 04:27.
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Old 2012-07-18, 05:26   Link #415
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
wait? is that really the case? that makes this game seem a bit too easy.
Regardless of whether or not killing bosses opens the next floor to everyone else "too easy" is still a HUGE understatement in a game where you can die for real.

Even more so when you consider how would be willing to even go out to fight the floor bosses and the limited resources in SAO
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Old 2012-07-18, 06:27   Link #416
Swordstriker21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenapan View Post
Kirito went up 8 floors during the beta. Did you notice he said he got further than anyone else? It implies he managed to solo even the 7th level boss cause no one else was able to follow him up.
Yes he did say he went up all the way to the 8th floor in the beta test but not once in episode one did he say that he was the only one who made it through. There were a total of 1000 beta testers. Diabel might not have made it but other testers apart from Kirito might have reached it too. At least that's how I heard it after rewatching that ep for the umpteenth time (I just have too much time). If he actually did then I apologize and if you could point out a particular scene then it would be much appreciated.

P.S. A chara of mine in the MMO I currently play is a Boss Hunter but I always make sure I have a healer waiting on the fly and if not that I have enough instaheal pots to last the entire battle. SAO has neither. Kayaba is such a troll.
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Old 2012-07-18, 06:36   Link #417
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...You all do realise that part of what Kirito is saying is bullshit, as he's pulling a Zero Approval Gambit, correct?

He's deliberately making himself as a bad guy, someone even worse than the beta testers, so that players like Kibaou will focus their hate on him and leave the ordinary beta testers alone, rather than call for a jihad against beta testers.
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Old 2012-07-18, 06:57   Link #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordstriker21 View Post
P.S. A chara of mine in the MMO I currently play is a Boss Hunter but I always make sure I have a healer waiting on the fly and if not that I have enough instaheal pots to last the entire battle. SAO has neither. Kayaba is such a troll.
Well he did take out the log out button... XD
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Old 2012-07-18, 07:09   Link #419
Swordstriker21
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Well he did take out the log out button... XD
Good point LOL
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Old 2012-07-18, 07:12   Link #420
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Spoiler for Official website preview of Episode 3:

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-18 at 09:04.
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