[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's one of the scenario I have already contemplated. Erika is supposed to be the incarnation of the perfect detective: photographic memory, ability to find instantly any relevant hint, super memory, exceptional perception and so on.
Except Erika only possesses that on occasions and not 24 hours on 24.

But why? Is it random? No it is not. It is just that she conveniently missess some relevant clues with no other apparent explanation except "it is required by the plot".

She normally plays as an exaggeration of the detective features in murder mysteries, but in a few cases she proves to be even less smart or perceptive than Watson. And there is no explanation for that.

Yes Jiblue, what you are proposing as an explanation is actually a non-explanation. What you are saying is basically: "Why did it happen? It just happened!"

The problem is that we believe that scene is relevant and she should have noticed the discrepancy because by now we know that scene is relevant and she should have paid attention to it.

Erika didn't know the scene was going to be important and might have overlooked checking it carefully in the same way she didn't bother checking the bodies.

As she doesn't deem the number of people important there's no reason to check it.

Her photofrapic memory and power of observation suffers of human limits.
Her vision is bound to have holes, black spots.

Now, if she were to be aware that something could happen if Yasu/Lambda were to use the trick of Kanon/Shannon being behind someone's back she would likely be suspicious. As it's unlikely she cares if everyone is present or where everyone is she doesn't bother checking people's positions.

Even if she had observed the scene from a screen that had been stilled for some purpose, as Battler seems to be doing and her photograpic memory had recorded it in full, she would have no reason to call it back in her mind to check if everyone was present as she didn't though someone could be missing.

A photographic mind can't help you if you don't know what to search or you don't have another 'picture' to compare differences.

Erika's character is overconfident and arrogant and tends to turn a blind eyes to details when she decides they don't matter in her theory.

If you want to say this is convenient for the plot, yes, it is.
Ryukishi balanced Erika's almost superhuman powers with her human nature that leads her to overlook things. Due to this we should always expect Erika to miss or deliberately ignore clues that doesn't match with her theory. That's what her character is.

As we all know she's not the perfect detective she claims to be, through not due to her abilities that are over the top but due to her own arrogance.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

But then in arc 7 Shkanon "breaks" when Will is trying to force them to be there at the same time with that whole creepy scene. Why was she about to break then when she could appear as both at the same time in front of Erika?

To make the scene Will was in freaky and unreal. Shkanon already is broken over one knee along with the rest of reality in that sequence considering Shannon/Kanon/Yasu is alt-universe Lion and Lion is standing right next to both of them at various points.

The broader question is why Shannon and Kanon can't just show up at once. I mean, this is a world where Lion can stand next to Yasu (well, maybe, at least next to Yasu's characters), where Kinzo randomly is dead or alive when the narrative and characters need him to be, and where there's a magic barrier outside the chapel. If anything, I find the Shannon BSOD completely absurd because I don't see why she and Kanon couldn't just both be there.

So I'm going with "Ryukishi did it to freak Will - and the reader - out with scene weirdness leading into Will discovering all the other weird things." It's a narrative conceit that probably isn't useful for anything.

Much like Shkanon itself.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The problem is that we believe that scene is relevant and she should have noticed the discrepancy because by now we know that scene is relevant and she should have paid attention to it.

Erika didn't know the scene was going to be important and might have overlooked checking it carefully in the same way she didn't bother checking the bodies.

As she doesn't deem the number of people important there's no reason to check it.

Her photofrapic memory and power of observation suffers of human limits.
Her vision is bound to have holes, black spots.

Here's the problem: She's aware that she has blind spots. That's what a photographic memory means; you recall absolutely everything you saw, thus, you can know in an instant when you didn't see something.

It's true she may not have thought it was important, but that's just the "Kanon was behind Gohda" argument all over again. The new argument you're raising is "Erika would be aware that Kanon wasn't in the room if she reviewed her photographic memory, but she just decided not to and never thought to reexamine it." It's just as absurd as Kanon "hiding," except even dumber somehow because now Erika has all the means at her disposal to realize Shkanon must be true (which means she wouldn't lose ep6) and the only reason she doesn't is... she's lazy and unobservant, exactly the opposite of her characterization?

At least "Kanon was behind Gohda" is a deception. It's a stupid deception, but it's an entirely fair Knox-compliant deception played on the detective (from Erika's POV anyway). All Erika would be able to say is "I didn't observe Kanon," but from that she'd probably conclude he had to be in the room anyway because of the red text. So stupid as it is, it doesn't require we believe Erika is stupid. Just arrogant and unable to connect dots.

"She just never noticed she already knew Kanon doesn't exist" requires we believe everyone is stupid: Erika, Bern, Lambda for just blatantly giving away the trick, even Battler (he wouldn't try a Logic Error that can only be solved by something Erika should already know is possible).

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

To make the scene Will was in freaky and unreal. Shkanon already is broken over one knee along with the rest of reality in that sequence considering Shannon/Kanon/Yasu is alt-universe Lion and Lion is standing right next to both of them at various points.

The broader question is why Shannon and Kanon can't just show up at once. I mean, this is a world where Lion can stand next to Yasu (well, maybe, at least next to Yasu's characters), where Kinzo randomly is dead or alive when the narrative and characters need him to be, and where there's a magic barrier outside the chapel. If anything, I find the Shannon BSOD completely absurd because I don't see why she and Kanon couldn't just both be there.

So I'm going with "Ryukishi did it to freak Will - and the reader - out with scene weirdness leading into Will discovering all the other weird things." It's a narrative conceit that probably isn't useful for anything.

I guess that's probably the only thing. What would happen should she actually call Kanon and both appeared at once in front of the detective? It was more a warning that "something would happen" and Will sensed that.

Wait isn't that it? Shannon never said she really couldn't, after all Will was about to force her to. Meaning he could've forced her to, but he didn't. Witches that would do things that "Beatrice wouldn't do herself" but that can be done definitively might do it (thus in arc 5 Shkanon was forced to appear at once by an uncaring LD). Hmm I'm really not sure of that but it sounds at least sorta possible.

Obviously it doesn't answer why they can appear at the same time in the first place, but to be fair it's less weird then having Battler see two Beatrices talking to each other in arc 4.

Much like Shkanon itself.Here's the problem: She's aware that she has blind spots. That's what a photographic memory means; you recall absolutely everything you saw, thus, you can know in an instant when you didn't see something.

It's true she may not have thought it was important, but that's just the "Kanon was behind Gohda" argument all over again. The new argument you're raising is "Erika would be aware that Kanon wasn't in the room if she reviewed her photographic memory, but she just decided not to and never thought to reexamine it." It's just as absurd as Kanon "hiding," except even dumber somehow because now Erika has all the means at her disposal to realize Shkanon must be true (which means she wouldn't lose ep6) and the only reason she doesn't is... she's lazy and unobservant, exactly the opposite of her characterization?

At least "Kanon was behind Gohda" is a deception. It's a stupid deception, but it's an entirely fair Knox-compliant deception played on the detective (from Erika's POV anyway). All Erika would be able to say is "I didn't observe Kanon," but from that she'd probably conclude he had to be in the room anyway because of the red text. So stupid as it is, it doesn't require we believe Erika is stupid. Just arrogant and unable to connect dots.

"She just never noticed she already knew Kanon doesn't exist" requires we believe everyone is stupid: Erika, Bern, Lambda for just blatantly giving away the trick, even Battler (he wouldn't try a Logic Error that can only be solved by something Erika should already know is possible).

Just saying I'm really not buying these explanations. Hiding behind Gohda or not noticing Kanon wasn't there sounds even more far fetched then lying with red, and harder to accept for me.
There is a huge difference between Erika trying to convince others that Kinzo is in Natsuhi's bed using retarded arguments and herself being convinced that Kinzo is indeed hiding in Natsuhi's bed.
So I mostly agree with you on that.

[Renall]

If it's hard for you to accept those explanations, then, is it equally hard for you to accept that maybe Ryukishi just screwed up?

As Jan-Poo said, it's silly to believe he never could have made a mistake. He's even admitted to one: Kyrie describing her baby as a "miscarriage" instead of "stillborn," two entirely different things. Kyrie definitely said "miscarriage" in an early episode, it was a mistake, Ryukishi confirmed it was a mistake, and it was fixed in later appearances.

This is slightly more important than a terminology mistake, but could it not be an error?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Much like Shkanon itself.Here's the problem: She's aware that she has blind spots. That's what a photographic memory means; you recall absolutely everything you saw, thus, you can know in an instant when you didn't see something.

The new argument you're raising is "Erika would be aware that Kanon wasn't in the room if she reviewed her photographic memory, but she just decided not to and never thought to reexamine it." It's just as absurd as Kanon "hiding," except even dumber somehow because now Erika has all the means at her disposal to realize Shkanon must be true (which means she wouldn't lose ep6) and the only reason she doesn't is... she's lazy and unobservant, exactly the opposite of her characterization?

Not really. As she wasn't there when Lambda said that everyone was in the parlour, she can't know everyone was supposed to be in the parlour in that moment.

Ergo even thought it would rewind her memory and go look at that moment she would see it's suspicious for Kanon (or Shannon) not being there only if she were to suspect the characters' count to be smaller than she thought.

We're never told she had access to red she didn't heard so she can't notice the trick in Lambda's red.

Basically in all the scenes she observed Shannon and Kanon were never together but this didn't arise in her any suspicion so why would a scene in which she doesn't know they are supposed to be together be suspicious?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

About the corpses. I never mentioned Erika listening to the others breathing. Its more likely that she was listening for foot steps, signs of struggle, doors opening or closing. I mean, if you give her the power to actually listen to somebody's breathing from across a room with a wall in between, a storm raging outside, air conditioning inside, etc. You might as well giver her the power to listen to breathing everywhere in the island and just have her be some sort of omniscient super infallible being.

Apologies. I confused you with chrono. You guys need avatars!

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

True, but the red truths in Dawn could only came from her perspective, they don't even exist in the narration. If you claim that she can "see things" even when she has detective authority then the whole logic behind "where the hell those red truths come from" in Ep6 falls apart.

As I said before, it's not Piece-Erika "seeing things", it's Meta-Erika's thought patterns that in part determines the story itself.

At the beginning of EP5 there is a truth "Kanon and Shannon are separate people". Erika sees this truth, but does not realize that there is actually another truth, "Kanon and Shannon are the same people", coexisting with it. At the end of Dawn the only truth she could see was destroyed, and that's why she died.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Let me make a mere speculative example. Suppose Author X makes a little error,

If this was an error, then it is not a little one. The number of people on the island is at the absolute core of the mystery and precisely what RK07 wants his readers focus on and ponder over, so I don't buy even for a second this idea of RK07 neglecting it. On the other hand I doubt he would think about whether a grandfather clock could tell the difference between noon and midnight.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's one of the scenario I have already contemplated. Erika is supposed to be the incarnation of the perfect detective: photographic memory, ability to find instantly any relevant hint, super memory, exceptional perception and so on.
Except Erika only possesses that on occasions and not 24 hours on 24.

But why? Is it random? No it is not. It is just that she conveniently missess some relevant clues with no other apparent explanation except "it is required by the plot".

Actually, Erika's contrived character is just that: It's because of Bernkastel's power over miracles that her avatar acts in a way that is perfectly convenient for her. When it serves Bernkastel's goals Erika is super-detective, but where super-detective would be a problem, such as investigating corpses, Erika becomes conveniently negligent.

It's exactly how Bernkastel would play the game; she contrives for herself the best possible sequence of "chance" events.

[rogerpepitone]

Is there any confirmation that Erika actually has a photographic memory? Maybe she just lied when she said she had one.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

If it's hard for you to accept those explanations, then, is it equally hard for you to accept that maybe Ryukishi just screwed up?

As Jan-Poo said, it's silly to believe he never could have made a mistake. He's even admitted to one: Kyrie describing her baby as a "miscarriage" instead of "stillborn," two entirely different things. Kyrie definitely said "miscarriage" in an early episode, it was a mistake, Ryukishi confirmed it was a mistake, and it was fixed in later appearances.

This is slightly more important than a terminology mistake, but could it not be an error?

That's sorta it tho. I could accept being an error if it wasn't something so important and if Ryuukishi didn't play so much around similar "errors".
The "this is a Ryuukishi error" clause, tho it might be valid at time, feels to me like the people who used "s/he's crazy" (for any given character) as a valid reason to do pretty much anything.

He did a bunch of mistakes btw, like that arc 3 forgetting that the boiler room has a door thing that was fixed in the anime.

In the end tho, considering Ryuukishi above mistakes might be ridiculous, but consider yourselves (to whoever is like that) above "not understanding something fundamental that Ryuukishi was trying to communicate to us" is even worst. There are definitively things that are both fundamental and either not understood or misunderstood by at least the general fan community (it's possible some people figured them out after all). Even if you think you understand everything that's something you should never be certain of.

So is this thread about trying to understanding things that confuses us about Umineko or about saying Ryuukishi made mistakes whenever there's something that bugs us? Cause the later, even if it's actually right, doesn't really lead anywhere. Especially if it's used as an argument to make the ones who are trying to figure things out to stop doing so.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

He did a bunch of mistakes btw, like that arc 3 forgetting that the boiler room has a door thing that was fixed in the anime.

I didn't remember this, so I checked. I didn't find anything that "fixes" it.

On the other hand, I checked Legend's part in the anime that was relevant to the boiler door as well, and Genji outright said that that door had no lock on it and that it wasn't a closed room because of that.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Not really. As she wasn't there when Lambda said that everyone was in the parlour, she can't know everyone was supposed to be in the parlour in that moment.

Replay. You don't know whether she ever saw it. I would think she would've been present when Lambda and Bern were playing the first time, or else it comes across as vaguely masturbatory for the scene to have ever played in the first place.

Also it doesn't fucking matter. Erika was physically in that room. At any time she can call upon what her piece remembered of that scene if indeed she does have the powers Ryukishi says that she has in ep5. Debating this means debating whether Ryukishi intended us to believe what he told us about her when we had no reason to doubt it. Is he seriously going to go to all the trouble to introduce an extra-textual set of rules governing an aspect of the mystery "game" and then ignore them?

Wait, don't answer that.

Anyway, if she can't remember this scene, her rules don't work the way we were told. If she simply doesn't remember it and never thinks back for any reason, she's even less credible as a villain as she was to begin with. She doesn't even need the red to know this matters. It turns her from a credible threat with an exploitable ego into a complete tool who can't even use the powers she claims she already has.

Ergo even thought it would rewind her memory and go look at that moment she would see it's suspicious for Kanon (or Shannon) not being there only if she were to suspect the characters' count to be smaller than she thought.

What about the Logic Error? It never occurred to her to think back on the last game she played?

"Huh, Kanon just dematerialized from a room that was inescapable, showed up to rescue Battler from his room, then vanished again. Hey, I never did see him back in the last game scene when everybody was supposed to be together..."

Yeah that totally would not have been relevant to her situation in any way nor would Kanon's ability to vanish into thin air cause her to think back on every time she ever was around Kanon. Sure.

Basically in all the scenes she observed Shannon and Kanon were never together but this didn't arise in her any suspicion so why would a scene in which she doesn't know they are supposed to be together be suspicious?

Because it's the scene that should confirm they're separate people to her (as both were in the room), yet if she just conveniently forgets about this scene altogether then the fact that she actually didn't see Kanon in that scene - and thus Shannon and Kanon together at any time - should become relevant when Beatrice uses Kanon as her piece during the Logic Error.

Erika has to be legally brain-dead to not consider all evidence she has about Kanon after Kanon escapes a perfectly sealed room. And Erika is supposedly smart. So basically she either:

• Was legitimately fooled, even though if we buy your line of thinking she shouldn't have been (other explanations still allow her to be tricked); or
• Brainfart. I sure hope that wasn't Beatrice's whole plan.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

In the end tho, considering Ryuukishi above mistakes might be ridiculous, but consider yourselves (to whoever is like that) above "not understanding something fundamental that Ryuukishi was trying to communicate to us" is even worst. There are definitively things that are both fundamental and either not understood or misunderstood by at least the general fan community (it's possible some people figured them out after all). Even if you think you understand everything that's something you should never be certain of.

So is this thread about trying to understanding things that confuses us about Umineko or about saying Ryuukishi made mistakes whenever there's something that bugs us? Cause the later, even if it's actually right, doesn't really lead anywhere. Especially if it's used as an argument to make the ones who are trying to figure things out to stop doing so.

Oh I agree, I want to believe there's a coherent explanation, but none has been offered and I sure as hell can't think of one beyond what I've already said, most of which is stupid or suggests a mistake.

If we can't find any reason why this scene works, either the reason is so poorly-explained that we're having no luck finding it through simple reasoning (which is a problem) or there isn't a reason, which means it's a mistake. I don't want to call it a mistake, but Occam's Razor and all.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Oh I agree, I want to believe there's a coherent explanation, but none has been offered and I sure as hell can't think of one beyond what I've already said, most of which is stupid or suggests a mistake.

I sadly have to agree with that, tho I think the answer lies very much "outside of the box" but...

If we can't find any reason why this scene works, either the reason is so poorly-explained that we're having no luck finding it through simple reasoning (which is a problem) or there isn't a reason, which means it's a mistake. I don't want to call it a mistake, but Occam's Razor and all.

That bold part is, concerning this, what I think.
You made a pretty good description of everything that's messed up about arc 7 and that's "actually possible" (since it happened). Erika's existence is pretty messed up in itself as well, so I'm thinking there's a large difference between "what Beatrice did on her gameboard" and "what could be done on her gameboard" and that the answers concerning these problems could be attained by understanding the two, as well as probably understanding a bit more what Beatrice actually wanted to do.

I'm going to raise a rather old problem of Shkanontrice that I don't think has ever been really answered. Why didn't anyone recognize Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice as any of the others? The lack of smooth answer or answers that makes sense sometimes concerning Shkanontrice in various specific situations leads me to believe that Ryuukishi can't be _that_ incompetent and that there's something we don't get about the fundament of it, even now.

Edit: I actually might have an idea.
Bern in arc 7 said that this world contained all that was needed in order to solve it. Perhaps that rule is more important then the setting being 100% mystery. If we consider that "fantasy cannot be used to create mysteries" it's not exactly the same thing as a total lack of fantasy. Preferably it wouldn't be there but it might be possible to exist, in some case, like the world of arc 7.
If we assume that there is not a single mystery in arc 5 that used the Shkanon trick as the "how dunnit", then "it is not needed to solve the given arc".
Shkanontrice trick in an arc where it's not part of the answer would be far too much of a red herring to be allowed, so the story used a bit of fantasy to fix that.
You finally get the right answer, but in order to continue to win, Ryuukishi would change the question? I can't think of a more trollish attitude.
If you want to think of it in a Erika detective logic term, "the detective detects clues" but if Shkanon is not a clue toward the solution in arc 5 she has no reason to actually detect it.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I didn't remember this, so I checked. I didn't find anything that "fixes" it.

On the other hand, I checked Legend's part in the anime that was relevant to the boiler door as well, and Genji outright said that that door had no lock on it and that it wasn't a closed room because of that.

Well if I remember well in arc 3 (anime version) when Ronove explains the chain-closed room thing, we were shown a glimpse of each rooms and the boiler had like wooden bars blocking that other door. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm really not a fan of the anime as I gave up before watching Alliance.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm going to raise a rather old problem of Shkanontrice that I don't think has ever been really answered. Why didn't anyone recognize Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice as any of the others? The lack of smooth answer or answers that makes sense sometimes concerning Shkanontrice in various specific situations leads me to believe that Ryuukishi can't be _that_ incompetent and that there's something we don't get about the fundament of it, even now.

This is the same author, mind you, that doesn't have characters leave wet footprints because it's "not important."

And it's not like Master of Disguise isn't an old-as-dirt trope anyway. I can excuse it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Replay. You don't know whether she ever saw it. I would think she would've been present when Lambda and Bern were playing the first time, or else it comes across as vaguely masturbatory for the scene to have ever played in the first place.

I thought I made clear that it didn't matter if she was in the meta when the scene was played the first time as it's unlikely she stopped Lambda to ask if there were more characters playing in the game as, according to mystery rules, the culprit should have been present right from the first game.

If she didn't ask: is everyone here? She couldn't get the red 'yes, everyone's here right now' therefore she couldn't know everyone was there and even if she noticed either Kanon or Shannon weren't there, it wouldn't have given it any relevance because, as far as she knew, THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE BOTH PRESENT.

The red truth saying that everyone was present was given when Battler watched the game being replayed.

Now, if Erika had been here, since she has objective vision, she would have noticed Shannon or Kanon are missing. But Erika is not here.
The manga shows it clearly. In the visual novel she shows up in the meta world only later in fact, when Battler sees her, any explanation about her is given by Lambda and Bern.

Erika isn't shown in the meta while this truth is given, the background behind her is the one of Rokkenjima, she doesn't get a single quote and she won't be in the meta for quite a while.

Ergo Erika never knew that Shannon and Kanon were supposed to be in the parlour at the same time so she couldn't see any incongruency in one of the two missing.

The fact one of them is missing in the parlour isn't very suspicious. If you want a more suspicious scene in which one of them was surely missing and she didn't notice that's the scene in Kinzo's room. There are all the siblings, there's Battler, there's Kumasawa, Nanjo and Gohda but it's impossible for Shannon and Kanon to be both present.

Originally Posted by Renall

"Huh, Kanon just dematerialized from a room that was inescapable, showed up to rescue Battler from his room, then vanished again. Hey, I never did see him back in the last game scene when everybody was supposed to be together..."

Again you say she was supposed to know everyone was there. How if she wasn't present when the red about the parlour was used?
Sure, Bern could have told her about it but I think it's unlikely to experct Bern to do her a favour.

Battler didn't know what was said between Bern, Lambda and Erika while the game was played the first time since he wasn't present.
It's reasonable that Erika too can't know what's said by Battler, Lambda and Bern if she isn't present in the meta world.

But all the evidence points that she wasn't there when that red truth was given and that during EP 5 she believed the number of people didn't matter so, during her game, she wouldn't have bothered asking some sort of confirmation about it. Battler wanted to know that sort of things because he was searching for an extra character that would play the role of culprit but Erika in EP 5 likely used Knox 1 and didn't bother checking this sort of things.

Knox 1: The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is the same author, mind you, that doesn't have characters leave wet footprints because it's "not important."

And it's not like Master of Disguise isn't an old-as-dirt trope anyway. I can excuse it.

Well the theory I posted in my edit of the last message can give an answer to that I guess. Still the disguise master aspect is acceptable for Shkanon but not Beatrice, as everyone is certain she's someone else disguised and as soon as arc 1 people suggested it was Shannon wearing a wig and Beato dress.

So you'd need a disguise master who, under the suspicion of being Shannon wearing a disguise, manages to nonetheless fool others into thinking she's not.

[AuraTwilight]

That's what her 'magic tricks' are for, I'd guess. Though in fairness she only really needs to deceive Battler and Maria. Everyone ELSE, for all we know, could be in on it.

[UsagiTenpura]

That George and Jessica are also on it... is sorta a stretch really.
Some events, arc 4's conference with "Kinzo" in particular, does seem to suggest that everyone else at least can be on it.

[Kealym]

Still kinda unconvinced that Lambda didn't just give Kanon his own body in End.

Though I guess I'd accept a Ryukishi error, as well. Like ... if he acknowledged it, or something similar.

[Renall]

It's such a major scene that if it were an error you'd think he'd confess to it. However, I have to think he at the very least meant it to all work together, even if his desired explanation was not properly conveyed by the narrative.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Ergo Erika never knew that Shannon and Kanon were supposed to be in the parlour at the same time so she couldn't see any incongruency in one of the two missing.

That would explain why, in the replay, Dlanor talked about "unobserved people that no one has noticed" even though all of the characters' locations were known.

[cronnoponno]

What is this ''Kanon behind Gohda'' scenario anyway? Can someone refresh my memory?

As far as I remember, any scene with both Kanon and Shannon in it can be absolutely interpreted as there only actually being one person there, whichever one it is subject to debate. (Unless it's just a servant, like Genji).


Like Kanon and Shannon both being in the dining room with Battler and everyone else, even if Battler's perspective wasn't reliable, everything in that scene seems to be possible if Shannon wasn't there, or they mixed it up and Kanon wasn't the one who opened the door. Not sure how it is in Japanese, but everything you read that they ask Kanon can be interpreted as being said to one person.

In that sense, Kanon and Shannon should be able to be in the same room as Erika, so long as both of them aren't physically acknowledged.